"Believing in God in itself doesn't make a person irrational. "?

[Tiberius]

I don't have the technical details of how God operates outside and inside of His own creation.
God's dealings aren't just in "bible times" because in a sense YOU are living in bible times -
the return of the Jews to their ancient homeland, a "second time" was promised to them
millennium ago. And the very thought of Jews returning to their ancient land was ridiculed
in the 19th Century. It's like some Babylonians going home to rebuild their land inside of
modern Iraq.

So you're just guessing? How then do you know you have it right?

 

[Tiberius]

You cannot make ANY sense of a realm outside of the whole universe.
You can stand on the north pole and tell someone to go north - that's
how scientists treat the idea of something outside of the universe.

So then why do you invoke it?

 

[paarsurrey]

I don't have the technical details of how God operates outside and inside of His own creation.
God's dealings aren't just in "bible times" because in a sense YOU are living in bible times -
the return of the Jews to their ancient homeland, a "second time" was promised to them
millennium ago. And the very thought of Jews returning to their ancient land was ridiculed
in the 19th Century. It's like some Babylonians going home to rebuild their land inside of
modern Iraq.

"how God operates outside and inside of His own creation"

With His attributes.

Regards

 

[PruePhillip]

So then why do you invoke it?

Because there must be some other realm. I must repeat - the universe cannot create
itself when it doesn't exist. SOMETHING or SOMEONE outside of what we live in has
caused our world to happen. Saying the universe has always been here still doesn't
answer the question of how it happened.

 

[PruePhillip]

So you're just guessing? How then do you know you have it right?

How long does a race exist when it is absorbed into another culture? Usually no more than
three or four generations. It astonished people even in the Middle Ages that the Jew was
still a racial group despite being scattered all over the world. One king famously said he
believed the bible for no other reason than for the fact there were still Jews about - and the
most hated group as well.
And then there's Palestine - now in the hands of the Ottoman Turks and Islam in general.
Taking it back for a few thousand European Jews seemed absurd. And holding this sliver
of land against the odds?
Anyone who claims to be "Roman" thinking of overpowering Italy?

 

[Tiberius]

Because there must be some other realm.

Argument from incredulity.

I must repeat - the universe cannot create
itself when it doesn't exist. SOMETHING or SOMEONE outside of what we live in has
caused our world to happen. Saying the universe has always been here still doesn't
answer the question of how it happened.

So you think that the universe not having a beginning doesn't change the fact that we would need to explain how such a universe began?

You demand the explanation for the beginning of something that never began?

I mean, I know I'm working with a hypothetical thing here, but still...

 

[Tiberius]

How long does a race exist when it is absorbed into another culture? Usually no more than
three or four generations. It astonished people even in the Middle Ages that the Jew was
still a racial group despite being scattered all over the world. One king famously said he
believed the bible for no other reason than for the fact there were still Jews about - and the
most hated group as well.
And then there's Palestine - now in the hands of the Ottoman Turks and Islam in general.
Taking it back for a few thousand European Jews seemed absurd. And holding this sliver
of land against the odds?
Anyone who claims to be "Roman" thinking of overpowering Italy?

Citation needed. There are also lots of families in America who came from Europe who still hold close ties to their homelands, despite having been there for several generations.

In any case, saying God must exist because if he didn't we wouldn't still have Jewish people doesn't make sense.

I could just as well say Ganesh must exist because if he didn't, we wouldn't still have Hindu people.

 

[PruePhillip]

Citation needed. There are also lots of families in America who came from Europe who still hold close ties to their homelands, despite having been there for several generations.

In any case, saying God must exist because if he didn't we wouldn't still have Jewish people doesn't make sense.

I could just as well say Ganesh must exist because if he didn't, we wouldn't still have Hindu people.

I never meant that God exists because Jews exist. But the bible said there will always be the Jews, and
what it says about these people is interesting - they will be "few in number" and that's against the odds
because in Jesus day there would have been maybe 5 million Jews and 20 million Chinese. Today there
is not 500 million Jews. And the land of Israel was "in the midst of the nations to prove them" - can't get
into a worse hot spot. And the land would be tiny to the nations around it. I want to walk across Israel one
day - give myself half a day for its narrowest point. And the Jews would be a blessing to the nations that
blessed them - look at the achievements of these people. And they would be cursed - like no other people.
And they would lose their nation and return to it twice - that proved to be Babylon and today. The nations
they are called out of were their "graves."
So we need to acknowledge that this is different.

 

[PruePhillip]

Argument from incredulity.



So you think that the universe not having a beginning doesn't change the fact that we would need to explain how such a universe began?

You demand the explanation for the beginning of something that never began?

I mean, I know I'm working with a hypothetical thing here, but still...

Yes, this one is much different to the old argument about creation and evolution.
The bible says that "God commanded the earth to bring forth life." And that's
something most creationists can't get their head around. Or scientists for that
matter. But the creation of everything which exists is on another level altogether.

I think the endlessly recycling universe theory has had its day.

 

[Tiberius]

I never meant that God exists because Jews exist. But the bible said there will always be the Jews, and
what it says about these people is interesting - they will be "few in number" and that's against the odds
because in Jesus day there would have been maybe 5 million Jews and 20 million Chinese. Today there
is not 500 million Jews. And the land of Israel was "in the midst of the nations to prove them" - can't get
into a worse hot spot. And the land would be tiny to the nations around it. I want to walk across Israel one
day - give myself half a day for its narrowest point. And the Jews would be a blessing to the nations that
blessed them - look at the achievements of these people. And they would be cursed - like no other people.
And they would lose their nation and return to it twice - that proved to be Babylon and today. The nations
they are called out of were their "graves."
So we need to acknowledge that this is different.

The fact that a group has survived for a long time when an old text said they would survive does not mean that God exists.

 

[Tiberius]

Yes, this one is much different to the old argument about creation and evolution.
The bible says that "God commanded the earth to bring forth life." And that's
something most creationists can't get their head around. Or scientists for that
matter. But the creation of everything which exists is on another level altogether.

I think the endlessly recycling universe theory has had its day.

You are still invoking special pleading. You don't hold the concept of God to the same standards of evidence that you demand from science. As long as you do that, we can't have a rational debate.

 

[PruePhillip]

You are still invoking special pleading. You don't hold the concept of God to the same standards of evidence that you demand from science. As long as you do that, we can't have a rational debate.

But in the same breath, a universe which created itself, for no reason, before it existed
IS a "rational debate" ?
Truth be told - both God and a self-creating universe are not in the realm of the rational.

 

[PruePhillip]

The fact that a group has survived for a long time when an old text said they would survive does not mean that God exists.

Sure, but things start stacking up when you take on board all the things I mention.
The fact that the fate of the Jews was foretold so accurately over so many thousand
years suggests there's something Not Normal going on here.
I love to read the stories of the 1948, 1976 wars, and how the USSR helped Israel.
There are things in this story I call "miracle moments" that don't make sense in any
normal history.
Good science makes good predictions, right? I predict over the next few generations
we will see the rise of virulent anti-Semitism in Western societies, and the flight of
all Jews back to Israel. I base this solely upon one verse in Ezekiel that states the
Jews will be back home a second time, "all of them." When this was written the Jews
were already in captivity - it seemed confusing that he was writing about ANOTHER
return to the one which hadn't yet come for these Babylonian exiles.

 

[firedragon]

How do observations in the field in this universe come from the multiverse?

There were two tests done, the older one brought in positive results, the second one done with better technology brought in negative results. It was called a wmap test.

 

[firedragon]

I never meant that God exists because Jews exist. But the bible said there will always be the Jews, and
what it says about these people is interesting - they will be "few in number" and that's against the odds
because in Jesus day there would have been maybe 5 million Jews and 20 million Chinese. Today there
is not 500 million Jews. And the land of Israel was "in the midst of the nations to prove them" - can't get
into a worse hot spot. And the land would be tiny to the nations around it. I want to walk across Israel one
day - give myself half a day for its narrowest point. And the Jews would be a blessing to the nations that
blessed them - look at the achievements of these people. And they would be cursed - like no other people.
And they would lose their nation and return to it twice - that proved to be Babylon and today. The nations
they are called out of were their "graves."
So we need to acknowledge that this is different.

Very similar to the Japanese argument about the Japanese.

 

[Tiberius]

But in the same breath, a universe which created itself, for no reason, before it existed
IS a "rational debate" ?
Truth be told - both God and a self-creating universe are not in the realm of the rational.

I'm just pointing out that if you are to claim that we shouldn't believe that the universe may be uncaused for whatever reason, we can dismiss the concept of God for the same reason.

And anyone who is willing to embrace that reasoning to dismiss the idea that the universe doesn't need a creator, but then ignore it when it says God needs a creator is not interested in having a serious discussion.

 

[Tiberius]

Sure, but things start stacking up when you take on board all the things I mention.
The fact that the fate of the Jews was foretold so accurately over so many thousand
years suggests there's something Not Normal going on here.
I love to read the stories of the 1948, 1976 wars, and how the USSR helped Israel.
There are things in this story I call "miracle moments" that don't make sense in any
normal history.
Good science makes good predictions, right? I predict over the next few generations
we will see the rise of virulent anti-Semitism in Western societies, and the flight of
all Jews back to Israel. I base this solely upon one verse in Ezekiel that states the
Jews will be back home a second time, "all of them." When this was written the Jews
were already in captivity - it seemed confusing that he was writing about ANOTHER
return to the one which hadn't yet come for these Babylonian exiles.

So the Bible makes clear and unambiguous prophecies about Israel, does it? Not just general vague statements? But clear and specific claims that could only apply to the 1948 and 1976 wars?

 

[PruePhillip]

So the Bible makes clear and unambiguous prophecies about Israel, does it? Not just general vague statements? But clear and specific claims that could only apply to the 1948 and 1976 wars?

Not those dates. I refer here to the strange turn of events which helped
deliver Israel back to the Jews.

 

[PruePhillip]

Very similar to the Japanese argument about the Japanese.

What argument is that?

 

[Tiberius]

But in the same breath, a universe which created itself, for no reason, before it existed
IS a "rational debate" ?
Truth be told - both God and a self-creating universe are not in the realm of the rational.

No, I'm not saying it is rational.

I'm saying that it is just as rational as the idea of God, so by rights, we should have the same credulity for both.