"Believing in God in itself doesn't make a person irrational. "?

[Tiberius]

Sure, but things start stacking up when you take on board all the things I mention.
The fact that the fate of the Jews was foretold so accurately over so many thousand
years suggests there's something Not Normal going on here.
I love to read the stories of the 1948, 1976 wars, and how the USSR helped Israel.
There are things in this story I call "miracle moments" that don't make sense in any
normal history.
Good science makes good predictions, right? I predict over the next few generations
we will see the rise of virulent anti-Semitism in Western societies, and the flight of
all Jews back to Israel. I base this solely upon one verse in Ezekiel that states the
Jews will be back home a second time, "all of them." When this was written the Jews
were already in captivity - it seemed confusing that he was writing about ANOTHER
return to the one which hadn't yet come for these Babylonian exiles.

And on what "science" do you base these predictions on?

 

[Tiberius]

Not those dates. I refer here to the strange turn of events which helped
deliver Israel back to the Jews.

Then please describe the real world events that resulted in this and show where those events were predicted clearly and unambiguously in the Bible.

 

[PruePhillip]

And on what "science" do you base these predictions on?

The science of numbers - in this case the rise of anti-Semitism in Western societies
which is driving some Jews to emigrate to Israel. I suspect this will continue, even
grow in intensity.

 

[PruePhillip]

Then please describe the real world events that resulted in this and show where those events were predicted clearly and unambiguously in the Bible.

The events themselves were not predicted in the bible. What WAS predicted is that when
the Christian churches fall the Jews will return to Israel again. They would leave nations
there were their "graves." They would take Israel back with the sword. They would restore
the broken land. They will live in un-walled cities.

There are so many little events that seemed unusual, particularly in the Six Day War. Things
which seem to favor the Jews at every turn. I reckon Midway for the Americans was very
favorable too - but not like this. A good book on this war brings many of these events to light.

 

[Tiberius]

The science of numbers - in this case the rise of anti-Semitism in Western societies
which is driving some Jews to emigrate to Israel. I suspect this will continue, even
grow in intensity.

Is that it?

Lots of people don't like Jewish people, therefore God is real?

 

[Tiberius]

The events themselves were not predicted in the bible. What WAS predicted is that when
the Christian churches fall the Jews will return to Israel again. They would leave nations
there were their "graves." They would take Israel back with the sword. They would restore
the broken land. They will live in un-walled cities.

There are so many little events that seemed unusual, particularly in the Six Day War. Things
which seem to favor the Jews at every turn. I reckon Midway for the Americans was very
favorable too - but not like this. A good book on this war brings many of these events to light.

And Christian churches have fallen? That's funny, I still see plenty of Christian churches around...

 

[PruePhillip]

And Christian churches have fallen? That's funny, I still see plenty of Christian churches around...

What does it say in Revelation about this?
no more the candle
no more the voice of the bride and bridegroom
a cage of every hateful and unclean bird
fallen in "one hour"
no more a source of money, power and influence.

It's like we see diminished wildlife today - we can't compare our church
situation to anything we personally know. You have to read what
religion was like centuries before to grasp how much it has vanished
from our lives. Recall the Pope refusing to grant the King of England
a divorce? Ever read it was the death penalty for adultery, and jail if
you fail to attend church? Did you know the Catholic Church gave
half the world to Spain, and the other to Portugal?

 

[PruePhillip]

Is that it?

Lots of people don't like Jewish people, therefore God is real?

You are mocking. There's at LEAST 120 countries the Jews have been
pushed out of (my own distant rels got shoved out of Portugal) And maybe
about ten million murdered. Anti-Semitism is the most enduring racial.
The point is - some feel the existence of the Jews is testament to the bible
because the bible said this would be the lot of the Jew, yet God would not
totally abandon them but allow them to remain as a people and return to
their homeland in the latter days.
If any of this prophecy failed you should rightly point this out. But by the
same token, you should wonder how all this actually transpired and what
does it mean. It must mean something because Jesus said the Jerusalem
would be in Gentile hands until the Gentiles are finished. What does THAT
mean?

 

[Tiberius]

What does it say in Revelation about this?
no more the candle
no more the voice of the bride and bridegroom
a cage of every hateful and unclean bird
fallen in "one hour"
no more a source of money, power and influence.

So? Again, Christian churches have not fallen.

It's like we see diminished wildlife today - we can't compare our church
situation to anything we personally know. You have to read what
religion was like centuries before to grasp how much it has vanished
from our lives. Recall the Pope refusing to grant the King of England
a divorce? Ever read it was the death penalty for adultery, and jail if
you fail to attend church? Did you know the Catholic Church gave
half the world to Spain, and the other to Portugal?

Are you suggesting that Christians not agreeing with each other was the fall of the churches?

BTW, was Australia given to Spain or Portugal?

 

[Tiberius]

You are mocking. There's at LEAST 120 countries the Jews have been
pushed out of (my own distant rels got shoved out of Portugal) And maybe
about ten million murdered. Anti-Semitism is the most enduring racial.
The point is - some feel the existence of the Jews is testament to the bible
because the bible said this would be the lot of the Jew, yet God would not
totally abandon them but allow them to remain as a people and return to
their homeland in the latter days.
If any of this prophecy failed you should rightly point this out. But by the
same token, you should wonder how all this actually transpired and what
does it mean. It must mean something because Jesus said the Jerusalem
would be in Gentile hands until the Gentiles are finished. What does THAT
mean?

Again, so what?

I'm not denying that it happened. I'm denying that it proves God is real.

 

[PruePhillip]

Again, so what?

I'm not denying that it happened. I'm denying that it proves God is real.

Nothing "proves" God is real in a corporate sense. The proof of God must be
through personal experience. According to the bible, if you only believe because
someone "proves" it to you then you don't get it.

 

[PruePhillip]

So? Again, Christian churches have not fallen.



Are you suggesting that Christians not agreeing with each other was the fall of the churches?

BTW, was Australia given to Spain or Portugal?

Treaty of Tordesillas put Australia in Portuguese territory.
The reason for the fall of the Christian churches is not mentioned. It just confirms
that what was a tiny sect at the time which did not believe God dwelt in temples
made with hands, would become the great power of the world with magnificent
gilded temples - and crowning kings. Essentially - embracing everything that first
church rejected.
It's said that the new generation of children in America could be that nations' first
"post-religious" generation. Religion is fast becoming a minority activity.

 

[night912]

But in the same breath, a universe which created itself, for no reason, before it existed
IS a "rational debate" ?
Truth be told - both God and a self-creating universe are not in the realm of the rational.

That is why we should not hold either of them as being rational until there is further evidence to show them to be deemed as being rational.

So in a rational debate, neither of them should be use as a rational argument, or as a source. And if one put either one as being higher than the other, that person should then be considered as having irrational reasoning.

 

[Tiberius]

Nothing "proves" God is real in a corporate sense. The proof of God must be
through personal experience. According to the bible, if you only believe because
someone "proves" it to you then you don't get it.

And if your proof is subjective not objective, then it's just opinion and isn't proof at all.

 

[Tiberius]

Treaty of Tordesillas put Australia in Portuguese territory.

Australia wasn't even discovered back then...

The reason for the fall of the Christian churches is not mentioned. It just confirms
that what was a tiny sect at the time which did not believe God dwelt in temples
made with hands, would become the great power of the world with magnificent
gilded temples - and crowning kings. Essentially - embracing everything that first
church rejected.
It's said that the new generation of children in America could be that nations' first
"post-religious" generation. Religion is fast becoming a minority activity.

You haven't even explained what "fall of the churches" actually means.

 

[PruePhillip]

Australia wasn't even discovered back then...



You haven't even explained what "fall of the churches" actually means.

This treaty put a line through the whole earth. It thus encompassed all the
undiscovered lands too.

There's two ways of looking at the fall of the Christian churches.
1 - the collapse of the churches as political, economic and cultural entities.
2 - the "hollowing out" of the churches from within (morality, doctrine etc..)

so you have churches like the Church of England which is a mere shadow
of its once grand self - its congregation is mostly gone, so too is its belief
system. Thus you can attend a near empty service and hear a gay priest
talk about Global Warming, for instance.

 

[PruePhillip]

And if your proof is subjective not objective, then it's just opinion and isn't proof at all.

Absolutely correct. But there ARE things I would consider "personal proofs" - these might
be proving for yourself something someone told you, or proving someone's claim of love
of you etc..

 

[Tiberius]

This treaty put a line through the whole earth. It thus encompassed all the
undiscovered lands too.

There's two ways of looking at the fall of the Christian churches.
1 - the collapse of the churches as political, economic and cultural entities.
2 - the "hollowing out" of the churches from within (morality, doctrine etc..)

so you have churches like the Church of England which is a mere shadow
of its once grand self - its congregation is mostly gone, so too is its belief
system. Thus you can attend a near empty service and hear a gay priest
talk about Global Warming, for instance.

So you choose to interpret "fall" as something vague and flexible so you can fit it into whatever you want so you can claim the prophecy came true.

Now, if you'll recall, I asked you to provide a "clear and unambiguous" prophecy from the Bible. By insisting that "fall" doesn't mean fall but rather it refers to some vague notion that allows you to force fit it into the events you want it to refer to, you have made it clear that it is not "clear and unambiguous" at all.

So you got nothing so far.

 

[Tiberius]

Absolutely correct. But there ARE things I would consider "personal proofs" - these might
be proving for yourself something someone told you, or proving someone's claim of love
of you etc..

But they're not objective. All you are presenting is opinion, and opinion isn't proof and opinion isn't fact.

 

[PruePhillip]

So you choose to interpret "fall" as something vague and flexible so you can fit it into whatever you want so you can claim the prophecy came true.

Now, if you'll recall, I asked you to provide a "clear and unambiguous" prophecy from the Bible. By insisting that "fall" doesn't mean fall but rather it refers to some vague notion that allows you to force fit it into the events you want it to refer to, you have made it clear that it is not "clear and unambiguous" at all.

So you got nothing so far.

No, I wouldn't say the "fall" is "vague." Revelations is quite specific - the collapse of the business of churches,
(ie merchants wailing) The loss of its political power. The end of its idolatry. The take over of the churches by
people the bible saw as evil (I think of the various forms of Marxist theology and social activists who see the
church as a political vehicle.) And it won't be a place to get married in anymore.
Paul, amongst others, speaks explicitly of what would become of people's moral standings in the future. That
first church was under no illusion, despite the growth, that the church of the latter days would be huge, powerful,
corrupt and doomed.

This is interesting because
1 - the modern church would be unrecognizable to the New Testament (NT) writers
2 - the NT church was home based, small and growing and rejected the things embraced by modern churches.

Sure, some churches are still quite strong in America and the "third world" but the collapse has been going on
now since about 1900 - the attendance graphs are quite stark. Historically this is quite fast.