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Bernie Sanders

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
So lobbying is a "conspiracy theory" and doesn't actually occur? Businesses would never try to influence politicians to protect their interests. No, it's that all of the world's scientists are part of the illuminati, collaborating on the most convoluted yet pointless prank ever?
When I read ".... buy off our politicians.", this means more than mere lobbying.
School teachers lobby. Gay folk lobby. The NAACP lobbies. Farmers lobby.
The same term applies to all?
Nah.
To say they're "bought" means much more.

My explanation for why leaders approach GW as they do is better than
the fossil fuel conspiracy theory. And I even offered evidence that our
leaders do not care to do anything personally about it.
 

Prometheus85

Active Member
Bernie is just pushing that conspiracy theory in a desperate bid to win nomination.
If he had any evidence...names, places, money transfers....he'd provide the info.

A better explanation is that the leaders either don't believe it's urgent or they just
don't care. Proof? Watch them travel. A typical Obama family of 4 vacation in
Hawaii burned 100,000 gallons of jet fuel. (And his base was OK with that.)
Trump, Pelosi...you name'm. I don't see personal carbon footprints being reigned in.
They only preach reducing someone else's.


Fossil Fuel Interests Have Outspent Environmental Advocates 10:1 on Climate Lobbying
 

Prometheus85

Active Member
I already know that they lobby.
But Bernie's language claims more.
Yes, I know that to fire up the masses means bending the truth.
But don't buy the lie.
If he had evidence, he'd air it.


You acknowledge Oil and gas giants spend millions lobbying to block climate change policies, which Bernie Sanders was talking about while at the same time denying it.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
When I read ".... buy off our politicians.", this means more than mere lobbying.
School teachers lobby. Gay folk lobby. The NAACP lobbies. Farmers lobby.
The same term applies to all?
Nah.
To say they're "bought" means much more.

My explanation for why leaders approach GW as they do is better than
the fossil fuel conspiracy theory. And I even offered evidence that our
leaders do not care to do anything personally about it.

Of course our leaders are phony, self-serving hypocrites and ****-poor examples, regardless of party. But when it comes to science, I trust scientists. It's kinda their thing. But this science denial didn't just randomly arise from no where. No one has a problem with science when it comes to the medicine and technology we all use everyday, but when it conflicts with our religions or inconveniences industries in ways that impact their money flow, people start trying to hand wave that pesky, problematic science away. This notion that all of the world's scientists got together to create a hoax that would destroy their careers and reputations just for ****s and giggles is beyond asinine.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You acknowledge Oil and gas giants spend millions lobbying to block climate change policies, which Bernie Sanders was talking about while at the same time denying it.
Everyone knows they lobby.
But Bernie's hyperbole is dishonest.
And people take it literally.

When Trujmp lies, it's wrong.
Same goes for others.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Of course our leaders are phony, self-serving hypocrites and ****-poor examples, regardless of party. But when it comes to science, I trust scientists. It's kinda their thing. But this science denial didn't just randomly arise from no where. No one has a problem with science when it comes to the medicine and technology we all use everyday, but when it conflicts with our religions or inconveniences industries in ways that impact their money flow, people start trying to hand wave that pesky, problematic science away. This notion that all of the world's scientists got together to create a hoax that would destroy their careers and reputations just for ****s and giggles is beyond asinine.
Hey, you don't have to argue for the cromulence of science to me.
I even read a book on it once.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Incredable! It never fails. I dont know why i bother coming on these forums.

I do and have and still do my OWN research. And man made climate change is exegerated BS.

The purpose of the forum is to discuss differences. I differ from you, you differ from me. We then debate or discuss those differences on the subject.

Make sense?

Okay, how about you post the research which shows the climate is not warming and/or humans do not contribute?
 

Alright! I read it twice!....now.....heres the rebuttal.

From the article

"The scientific consensus about the cause of the recent warming was summarized by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) in 2007: “Most of the observed increase in global average temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations… The observed widespread warming of the atmosphere and ocean, together with ice mass loss, support the conclusion that it is extremely unlikely that global climate change of the past 50 years can be explained without external forcing, and very likely that it is not due to known natural causes alone.”

Definition of likely is

"such as well might happen or be true; probable."

For something as big as climate change, to rehall the entire economy based on it, we need something more solid then "LIKELY".

Ok, one more....

"ATMOSPHERIC CARBON DIOXIDE CONCENTRATIONS are higher today than at any time in at least the past 650,000 years. They are about 35% higher than before the industrial revolution, and this increase is caused by human activities, primarily the burning of fossil fuels."

And

"The concentrations of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases in atmospheric samples have been measured continuously since the late 1950s. Since then, carbon dioxide concentrations have increased steadily from about 315 parts per million (ppm, or molecules of carbon dioxide per million molecules of dry air) in the late 1950s to about 385 ppm now, with small spatial variations away from major sources of emissions. For the more distant past, we can measure atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse gases in bubbles of ancient air preserved in ice (e.g., in Greenland and Antarctica). Ice core records currently go back 650,000 years; over this period we know that carbon dioxide concentrations have never been higher than they are now. Before the industrial revolution, they were about 280 ppm, and they have varied naturally between about 180 ppm during ice ages and 300 ppm during warm periods (Fig. 1). Concentrations of methane and nitrous oxide have likewise increased since the industrial revolution (Fig. 2) and, for methane, are higher now than they have been in the 650,000 years before the industrial revolution."

Now ill use wiki as my rebuttal to this part. Mind you, yes, im well aware wiki believes in human caused global warming. However, because they do believe also in accuracy, i believe in the quote below, they have shot there belief in the foot.

From wiki

"temperature records for the last 420 million years indicate that atmospheric CO
2 concentrations peaked at ~2000 ppm during the Devonian (∼400 Myrs ago) period, and again in the Triassic (220–200 Myrs ago) period. Global annual mean CO
2 concentration has increased by more than 45% since the start of the Industrial Revolution, from 280 ppm during the 10,000 years up to the mid-18th century[2] to 415 ppm as of May 2019.[3][4] The present concentration is the highest for 14 million years."

Carbon dioxide in Earth's atmosphere - Wikipedia

Ok.....so.....in otherwords, concentrations of co2 wer WAY higher before our industrialation came along. And obviously the planet did just fine.

Also, id like to add one more thing. This is called the Milankovitch cycles. Or you could call it the orbital cycles.

Here is a video of it i seen awhile ago. Its worth looking at. Remember theres many factors that cause warming/cooling.


To summerize how it works, the planet does not just have 4 season cycles, it also has other cycles, which happen over longer periods of time. Thus the warming/cooling.

Interestingly, Nasa has an article that matches mars ice caps doing what ours is doing. That article is here if i remember. I think this is the one i read last time. But if not, its close enough.

NASA Radar Finds Ice Age Record in Mars' Polar Cap

Ok! Your thoughts now.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Ok, lets get this streaght. Here is what no rebuttal TRULY looks like. :handpointright:

"No rebuttal there. Just a demonstration of scientific illiteracy."

:handpointleft:

It looks just like that.

If you want to learn there are those that will help you here. For starters I can help you to understand the Greenhouse Effect.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Ok, i got an idea, how about we discuss your BEST data. Sound like a plan? Lets go through some of this data. Lets start with your BEST first.

Go ahead.
The "best" datapoint depends on the point at which the disagreement starts. We don't yet know how much you know and were you disagree with the consensus.
Am I right that you accept the physics and the data and only disagree with the predictions?
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I already know that they lobby.
But Bernie's language claims more.
Yes, I know that to fire up the masses means bending the truth.
But don't buy the lie.
If he had evidence, he'd air it.
He did. In interviews where he was given the time. The problem with "debates" and sound bite interviews is that a candidate has to shorten her/his message to talking points. It's less lying but more reducing beyond the point of truth.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
He did. In interviews where he was given the time. The problem with "debates" and sound bite interviews is that a candidate has to shorten her/his message to talking points. It's less lying but more reducing beyond the point of truth.
Whatever evidence he gave, I've yet to see it in the news.
And I read or listen to a lot of news.
His supported claim would've been a bombshell.
So I'll stick to my assessment that he's being artfully histrionic.
 
The "best" datapoint depends on the point at which the disagreement starts. We don't yet know how much you know and were you disagree with the consensus.
Am I right that you accept the physics and the data and only disagree with the predictions?

I mostly approuch all subjects from a common sense standpoint. Climate change is no different to me.

That aside, ive done my research. Reading, listening to debates and lectures, bla bla.

But, you tell me what made you believe man is causing global warming and we can start there.
 
If you want to learn there are those that will help you here. For starters I can help you to understand the Greenhouse Effect.

:facepalm:

You already told me the green house effect in a past discussion.

Then i cross examined you with a stream of questions and all of those wernt addressed.

Do you want to do it all over again?

Sure.....

Ok....

So....

Tell me, what is the greenhouse effect?
 
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