Bible and polygamy

[Godobeyer]

Really? You believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, he died on a cross and rose again 3 days later? I was under the impression that Mohammed taught that Jesus was just a prophet and the NT scripture concerning Him is incorrect. Certainly Mohammed didn't believe the NT. Are you claiming that you do believe it?

This is Christian DIR, so this would slip us to debate. that's what I try my best to avoid here. against the rules.

If you want to discuss you can creat a thread or I can creat thread in Debate DIR for you.
If you want to know ONLY Muslims opinion about Jesus (pbuh) the best place is Islam DIR.

 

[First Baseman]

This is Christian DIR, so this would slip us to debate. that's what I try my best to avoid here. against the rules.

If you want to discuss you can creat a thread or I can creat thread in Debate DIR for you.
If you want to know ONLY Muslims opinion about Jesus (pbuh) the best place is Islam DIR.

Well, you did ask and so I answered. Of course Christians do not believe much of anything Mohammed taught and we do not believe he was a prophet of God, rather that he was a false prophet. Because to believe what he taught about Christ is to deny the very faith that identifies us as Christians. So when you asked that question, what did you expect?

 

[Godobeyer]

Well, you did ask and so I answered. Of course Christians do not believe much of anything Mohammed taught and we do not believe he was a prophet of God, rather that he was a false prophet. Because to believe what he taught about Christ is to deny the very faith that identifies us as Christians. So when you asked that question, what did you expect?

My question was about polygamy in Bible .
My OP was not about belief or my prophet ,I did expect to mention to my belief.

The new information that I discovered about polygamy and Christains ,there is different views about this issue.

 

[First Baseman]

My question was about polygamy in Bible .
My OP was not about belief or my prophet ,I did expect to mention to my belief.

The new information that I discovered about polygamy and Christains ,there is different views about this issue.

I was referring to this question, not the one in the OP:

Where exactly Mohammed (pbuh) said Gospel is incorrect ?

 

[David1967]

Matthew 19
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

I thought this may be what you were referring to. However Jesus is addressing 'adultery' and not polygamy. Adultery is sexual relations outside a persons marriage which would be outside the subject of multiple wives. Not saying your point is not valid, just a different subject. IMO that is.

Therefore it is clear that Jesus was talking about one man and one woman only, as the Pharisees were. Note that Jesus did not use the plural of wife but clearly indicated that a man should be united to one woman as his wife and that they should become one flesh - not united to 3 or 4 to become one flesh but only one wife.

I agree that he is talking about one man and one woman ,but he does not use the word "only". I tried to answer Godobeyers question analytically without inserting my personal opinion. Did God forbid polygamy? From what I have found, no He did not. Did He tolerate it? Yes He did. All through the Old Testament men of God had multiple wives and were never chastised by God for doing so. Did it cause them no end of problems? Yes it most definitely did. Did God bless having multiple wives? Never did, but He did tolerate it. Now, my personal opinion is that it is much better to only have one wife. But the question was not regarding my personal view but rather 'does the bible expressly forbid polygamy'. There is no commandment such as "though shall only have one wife." We can look at verses such as the ones you provided and come to a conclusion that God prefers that we stick to one wife but He does not say, "you cannot and will be seen as sinning if you don't".

Mohammed taught that NT scripture is incorrect so Muslims do not accept Jesus' teaching from the NT as we do. Of course Christians believe in the gospels so Mohammed taught heresy as far as Christians are concerned.

The Muslim faith, as far as I have seen, respect the teachings of Jesus as a prophet, yet reject that He is God made flesh. This from my conversations with Godobeyer who patiently and politely and without condemnation explained to me some of the differences between our two faiths.

Brother, be careful that you are not deceived by non-Biblical teaching. This Muslim is an unbeliever and therefore we believe he has no part with us in Christ. His curiosity is good but his teaching is not.

I draw the line here. I will not refer to my friend Godobeyer offhandedly as "this muslim". This is disrespectful to him personally which he does not deserve for simply asking a valid question. I have had many conversations with Godobeyer and believe him to be a good and honorable person, and that has nothing to do with whether we are Christian or Muslim or Jew. (I could go on but for this dialogue I am limiting comparisons to Abrahamic religions). I value an honest polite exchange of views whether from him or you. I have no control over what a person may think of me or my faith, but I can control the manner in which I engage them in conversation.
Sincerely

 

[First Baseman]

I thought this may be what you were referring to. However Jesus is addressing 'adultery' and not polygamy. Adultery is sexual relations outside a persons marriage which would be outside the subject of multiple wives. Not saying your point is not valid, just a different subject. IMO that is.

It does not matter that it was a different subject. My points are all valid.

I agree that he is talking about one man and one woman ,but he does not use the word "only". I tried to answer Godobeyers question analytically without inserting my personal opinion. Did God forbid polygamy? From what I have found, no He did not. Did He tolerate it? Yes He did. All through the Old Testament men of God had multiple wives and were never chastised by God for doing so. Did it cause them no end of problems? Yes it most definitely did. Did God bless having multiple wives? Never did, but He did tolerate it. Now, my personal opinion is that it is much better to only have one wife. But the question was not regarding my personal view but rather 'does the bible expressly forbid polygamy'. There is no commandment such as "though shall only have one wife." We can look at verses such as the ones you provided and come to a conclusion that God prefers that we stick to one wife but He does not say, "you cannot and will be seen as sinning if you don't".

I guess we just don't see eye to eye here. You are interpreting Jesus' words quite liberally, I believe. Too liberally. If Jesus had meant more than one woman He would have used the plural "wives" instead of wife.

The Muslim faith, as far as I have seen, respect the teachings of Jesus as a prophet, yet reject that He is God made flesh. This from my conversations with Godobeyer who patiently and politely and without condemnation explained to me some of the differences between our two faiths.

They do not respect the Son of the Living God. They just totally disregard the fact that Jesus is the only way into heaven and there is no other way. I cannot and do not have any respect for anti-Christian teaching.

Ask yourself, Would Jesus approve of this teaching? Definitely not. Jesus and His Apostles warned over and over again about false teaching.

Godobeyer may very well be a nice guy but I would never allow him to teach anything to my family or my Church, nor will I ever take someone seriously who denies the Christ and teaches others to do so.

I draw the line here. I will not refer to my friend Godobeyer offhandedly as "this muslim". This is disrespectful to him personally which he does not deserve for simply asking a valid question. I have had many conversations with Godobeyer and believe him to be a good and honorable person, and that has nothing to do with whether we are Christian or Muslim or Jew. (I could go on but for this dialogue I am limiting comparisons to Abrahamic religions). I value an honest polite exchange of views whether from him or you. I have no control over what a person may think of me or my faith, but I can control the manner in which I engage them in conversation.

Well, you may freely refer to me as "this Christian" and I have no problem with it. Your friend should not be offended by being called "this Muslim" if that is what in fact he claims to be.

Please be reminded of 1 Timothy 6:3-5. Paul was a lot more vocal about such things in his other letters but these verses should suffice.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

There seems to be a misconception that Christians supposedly view the prophets, patriarchs and matriarchs as perfect people whose actions God always approved of. That's not true. They were flawed people. David, for instance, was an adulterer and a murderer. In fact, Israel was more likely to be in trouble with God than not. He let them have things their own way and they suffered for it, like naughty children.

When it comes to polygamy, it's something that was tolerated but it's not part of God's original plan.

"Polygamy as polygyny is contrary to divine positive law governing the marriage union (Genesis 2:24; Ephesians 5:31). According to the natural law, even successive polygamy (as in societies that legalize marriage after divorce) hinders the proper care and education of children. And it places an intolerable burden on practicing mutual love between the spouses.

In the Old Testament, God tolerated polygamy for a certain time, as it appears from the examples of men such as Abraham, Jacob, and David. But with the proclamation of the New Law, this concession, almost wrested from by God by reason of the moral obtuseness of man, was revoked. Marriage was restored to its original unity. The language of Christ is very explicit (Matthew 19:3-9; Mark 10:1-12; Luke 16:18). Catholic tradition has consistently interpreted Christ's teaching as absolutely forbidding polygamy, and the prohibition was defined by the Council of Trent, pronouncing anathema against anyone who says that "it is lawful for Christians to have several wives at the same time, and that it is not forbidden by any divine law" (Denzinger 1802). (Etym. Greek polygamos, having many wives.)"
https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35621

" [Conjugal] communion is radically contradicted by polygamy; this, in fact, directly negates the plan of God which was revealed from the beginning, because it is contrary to the equal personal dignity of men and women who in matrimony give themselves with a love that is total and therefore unique and exclusive."180" - CCC 2387
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Godobeyer may very well be a nice guy but I would never allow him to teach anything to my family or my Church, nor will I ever take someone seriously who denies the Christ and teaches others to do so.

Are you sure you're a Catholic? You sound like a fundie Protestant that goes to some small town backwater church here. The Catholic Church is ecumenical and engages in dialogue with religions all over the world. In fact, the Catechism says this about Muslims:

"841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330" CCC - 841
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

Jesus Himself went around talking to and being friends with all sorts of people. The people He had the most difficulty with were His fellow Jews, not non-Jews. So you are not acting very Christ-like here.

 

[First Baseman]

Are you sure you're a Catholic? You sound like a fundie Protestant that goes to some small town backwater church here. The Catholic Church is ecumenical and engages in dialogue with religions all over the world. In fact, the Catechism says this about Muslims:

"841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330" CCC - 841
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

Jesus Himself went around talking to all sorts of people. The people He had the most difficulty was were His fellow Jews, not non-Jews. So you are not acting very Christ-like here.

Let's just say I don't agree with everything the Catholic Church teaches outside of the Bible and leave it at that. I don't know any Catholic person who does.

The catechism changes through the years. God's word does not change.

Was St. Paul acting Christ-like when he said this:

Galatians 1
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!


So, therefore, brothers, all those who preach Islam as their religion are under God's curse - according to the Apostle Paul.

If the pope or the Church disagrees with Paul the Apostle then they are just wrong.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Let's just say I don't agree with everything the Catholic Church teaches outside of the Bible and leave it at that. I don't know any Catholic person who does.

The catechism changes through the years. God's word does not change.

Was St. Paul acting Christ-like when he said this:

Galatians 1
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!


So, therefore, brothers, all those who preach Islam as their religion are under God's curse - according to the Apostle Paul.

So you think all non-Christians are "cursed" by God? What in the world? That passage was referring to false Christian teachers, not people of other religions. If you were referring to the "prosperity doctrine" heretic preachers or the far-right Dominionist whackjobs, you'd have a point. But to apply it to non-Christians is a step too far. Christ didn't say any such thing.

 

[First Baseman]

John 3
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.


Muslims are similar to Pharisees in that they think they can be "good enough" to get into heaven. They cannot. There will be no Unbelievers in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

John 3
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.


Muslims are similar to Pharisees in that they think they can be "good enough" to get into heaven. They cannot. There will be no Unbelievers in the kingdom of heaven.

I've never heard a Muslim say that before, and Catholicism teaches good works as part of working out your salvation. None of us knows the state of anyone's soul and it would be flat-out hubris to claim to know. Only God knows the deepest reaches of our souls. I think we will be mightily surprised at who ends up where.

Even if you're trying to evangelize, there's better ways to go about it. You're not going to win anyone over by being rude and dismissive of them because they have a different religion from you. That just drives people away and that's a big part of the reason why so many people are leaving Christianity. Who would want to be part of a group that has treated them so badly and is so obnoxious and arrogant? "Preach the Gospel, and if necessary, use words" the saying goes. Try showing compassion, charity, mercy and understanding. You're not any better off than anyone else and your salvation is not assured. We're all on this journey through life together.

 

[First Baseman]

I've never heard a Muslim say that before, and Catholicism teaches good works as part of working out your salvation. None of us knows the state of anyone's soul and it would be flat-out hubris to claim to know. Only God knows the deepest reaches of our souls. I think we will be mightily surprised at who ends up where.

Even if you're trying to evangelize, there's better ways to go about it. You're not going to win anyone over by being rude and dismissive of them because they have a different religion from you. That just drives people away and that's a big part of the reason why so many people are leaving Christianity. Who would want to be part of a group that has treated them so badly and is so obnoxious and arrogant? "Preach the Gospel, and if necessary, use words" the saying goes. Try showing compassion, charity, mercy and understanding. You're not any better off than anyone else and your salvation is not assured. We're all on this journey through life together.

That's sad, really. Your salvation was assured at the cross. Of course it's assured. Jesus didn't die so that you might have eternal life but so that you will have it.

Okay, ask Godobeyer what he thinks is going to get him into heaven. Anything other than Jesus Christ is wrong. To let him think he is getting in without Christ is wrong of you.

If he believes and confesses Jesus Christ he will be saved. If not he will not. There is only one name under heaven by which men must be saved.

Brother, rebuke those who teach any gospel other than the one you know and believe. By doing this you show your love for them and your willingness to them that you desire eternal life for them.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That's sad, really. Your salvation was assured at the cross. Of course it's assured. Jesus didn't die so that you might have eternal life but so that you will have it.

Are you really sure you're a Catholic? You seriously sound like an Evangelical. Catholicism does not teach that salvation is assured. It doesn't teach "once saved, always saved". You can lose your salvation at any time by committing mortal sin. If you die without repenting of it, you are damned, according to traditional teaching. (I personally lean towards universal reconciliation, or at least pray and hope for the salvation of all souls. But we're not talking about my personal opinion here.) Popes can go to hell, too. Salvation is a journey that you must consent to and work at all the days of your life. You must confess all of your sins to a priest and receive absolution to be in a state of grace. Venial sins will likely land you in Purgatory, but mortal sins damn you.

Okay, ask Godobeyer what he thinks is going to get him into heaven. Anything other than Jesus Christ is wrong. To let him think he is getting in without Christ is wrong of you.

If he believes and confesses Jesus Christ he will be saved. If not he will not. There is only one name under heaven by which men must be saved.

Brother, rebuke those who teach any gospel other than the one you know and believe. By doing this you show your love for them and your willingness to them that you desire eternal life for them.

The Catholic Church does not teach that you go to hell simply because you're not a Christian. Nor does it teach that you go to Heaven simply because you accept Christ as Lord and Savior. It's more complex than that. The Church does teach that non-Christians can be saved, depending on various circumstances. Sure, we should spread the word of Christ but a big part of getting people to respond to it positively is how you go about doing it. Threatening people and being rude will only turn them away. You have to show them love and understanding. You have to approach them where they are in life.

I don't know where you learned this stuff, but you weren't educated in it correctly. A lot of the stuff you're saying isn't taught by the Church.

 

[First Baseman]

Are you really sure you're a Catholic? You seriously sound like an Evangelical. Catholicism does not teach that salvation is assured. It doesn't teach "once saved, always saved". You can lose your salvation at any time by committing mortal sin. If you die without repenting of it, you are damned, according to traditional teaching. (I personally lean towards universal reconciliation, or at least pray and hope for the salvation of all souls. But we're not talking about my personal opinion here.) Popes can go to hell, too. Salvation is a journey that you must consent to and work at all the days of your life. You must confess all of your sins to a priest and receive absolution to be in a state of grace. Venial sins will likely land you in Purgatory, but mortal sins damn you.


The Catholic Church does not teach that you go to hell simply because you're not a Christian. Nor does it teach that you go to Heaven simply because you accept Christ as Lord and Savior. It's more complex than that. The Church does teach that non-Christians can be saved. Sure, we should spread the word of Christ but a big part of getting people to respond to it positively is how you go about doing it. Threatening people and being rude will only turn them away. You have to show them love and understanding. You have to approach them where they are in life.

I don't know where you learned this stuff, but you weren't educated in it correctly. A lot of the stuff you're saying isn't taught by the Church.

I respectfully disagree. If Jesus taught it and Paul taught it then I don't need the approval of the Church to teach it because Jesus is King and Paul was one of His Apostles. You are correct about much of what you say but I think you need to reacquaint yourself with what Jesus and the Apostles taught.

What have you been taught that a person can do to be saved contrary to John 3:16-18? I ask out of curiosity only.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I respectfully disagree. If Jesus taught it and Paul taught it then I don't need the approval of the Church to teach it because Jesus is King and Paul was one of His Apostles. You are correct about much of what you say but I think you need to reacquaint yourself with what Jesus and the Apostles taught.

What have you been taught that a person can do to be saved contrary to John 3:16-18? I ask out of curiosity only.

Since you don't accept the Church that Christ founded as an authority on doctrine, why exactly do you call yourself a Catholic? I have my disagreements with the hierarchy, myself, but that's over socio-political issues, not basic doctrine.

 

[First Baseman]

Since you don't accept the Church that Christ founded as an authority on doctrine, why exactly do you call yourself a Catholic? I have my disagreements with the hierarchy, myself, but that's over socio-political issues, not basic doctrine.

Basic doctrine is the New Testament, not what the Church says. The Church has erred as Pope Francis has recently acknowledged when he apologized recently. The New Testament is pristine and without error.

I am Catholic. Many of us Catholics are in the process of getting the Church back to the New Testament where it has swayed away from it. I accept Christ and everything He taught. Some of what the Church teaches I have severe doubts about, though. I think the pope does, too. No matter. The truth will prevail in the end as it always does.

And you ignored my question. Please answer it or say that you cannot or dont know.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Basic doctrine is the New Testament, not what the Church says. The Church has erred as Pope Francis has recently acknowledged when he apologized recently. The New Testament is pristine and without error.

I am Catholic. Many of us Catholics are in the process of getting the Church back to the New Testament where it has swayed away from it. I accept Christ and everything He taught. Some of what the Church teaches I have severe doubts about, though. I think the pope does, too. No matter. The truth will prevail in the end as it always does.

He was not saying that the Church erred in its theology. He was saying that the Church erred in how it treats people at times.

And you ignored my question. Please answer it or say that you cannot or dont know.

The Catechism. I linked to it in this thread.

 

[First Baseman]

He was not saying that the Church erred in its theology. He was saying that the Church erred in how it treats people at times.


The Catechism. I linked to it in this thread.

And yet you don't think that directly contradicts what Jesus said in John 3:16-18? You think Muslims who do not confess Christ will enter heaven?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And yet you don't think that directly contradicts what Jesus said in John 3:16-18?

No.

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means

How can you be condemned for lacking knowledge you were ignorant of? A faithful Muslim, for instance, is not convicted of the truth of Catholicism. So why would their ignorance of it damn them? Damnation, like Salvation, is a wilful path you follow. It's based on choices you consciously make. A Muslim is serving God as best they know how, same as others of other religions. They are seeking and searching for God. They haven't rejected Him.To be damned, you must willfully reject God, despite knowing the truth. If you know the Church is the One True Church but you leave or refuse to enter her in the first place, then you are greatly imperiling yourself.

There is also a belief that the Archangel St. Michael appears to all of us at the time of our death to give us one last chance to repent. If we do, we go to Purgatory and formally accept Christ then. (Interestingly, Islam also has a tradition where people are tested in their graves by Angels for a period of time.)

You think Muslims who do not confess Christ will enter heaven?

That's not my place to say. I could very well end up in hell and so could you. It's between them and God. I hope we all are counted as worthy of Beatific Vision, however. That's my hope. I hope even Satan can be reconciled to God.

Muslims do believe in Christ, by the way. They believe He is the Messiah, was born of a virgin and will return. They just don't generally believe in the crucifixion or that He is the Son of God/God the Son. But we actually have far more in common with Muslims, theologically, than we do with modern Jews.