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Bible Fails

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
None of my arguments is based on atheism. All have come from people who deeply and sincerely believed in God, and most from evangelical Christians who hold to biblical inerrency.
Seems to me what you wrote in your last post was indeed based on athiesm as were your questions IMO. Maybe you do not see it
They are not plausible. They are possible, but not plausible. A simple mistake is also possible yet much more plausible.
If something is possible it is plausible as to be plausible is simply an argument or statement that is seeming reasonable or probable. If my argument is possible then it is probable.
For the greater glory of God; because truth matters; because believing a faulty bibliology will likely lead to a faulty idea of God, ethical mistakes, and unecessary suffering for yourself and others.
If "christians" are only saved by believing and following God's Word then how in your view can it be for the greater good and glory of God? So you want to do away with Gods' Word when it is only in the scriptures anyone can know and find God? You will not find God outside of the scriptures neither can you have faith which without it is impossible to please God. These scriptures are a contradiction to your claims don't you think?
Wheather you have peace or do not have peace. I do not know. Deep down inside you know if you have peace in your life or do not. God knows if you have peace or not and this is the only thing I wish for you :)
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I have no idea.
You could ask him, but be prepared for all the judgement he claims he withholds...

@3rdAngel

Southern Baptist theologian and ethicist Russell D. Moore said that "Paula White is a charlatan and recognized as a heretic by every orthodox Christian, of whatever tribe."[55] Michael Horton, a professor of theology at Westminster Seminary California, wrote in early January 2017 that White represented a heretical movement and that her then-upcoming address at President Trump's inauguration was helping to introduce heresy into mainstream public life. Horton addressed White's denial of the Trinity and the prosperity gospel's position that Christ died on the cross not for the forgiveness of humankind but to rescue people from financial hardship.[55]


Other allegations of heresy have emerged among conservative Christians, such as that White has denied the Trinity, partly as a result of a video shared by Christian author Erick Erickson that shows White assenting to the viewpoint that Jesus Christ was not the only son of God, in contravention of the Nicene Creed.[22][56] Erickson has stated:


The President of the United States putting a heretic on stage who claims to believe in Jesus, but does not really believe in Jesus, risks leading others astray.... I'd rather a Hindu pray on Inauguration Day and not risk the souls of men, than one whose heresy lures in souls promises of comfort only to damn them in eternity.[56]


Connor Gaffey has drawn attention to a 2007 televised event at which White stated, "Anyone who tells you to deny yourself is from Satan." Gaffey contrasts that with Jesus' words in the Gospel of Matthew: "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me."[38]


Paula White - Wikipedia
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
So I am fine with Jesus' favorite disciple writing the Gospel According
To John. And I am happy with Matthew being the author of the Gospel
by that name. And there's no reason to disbelieve that someone called
Luke wrote the Gospel of Luke and Acts

I’m not fine with that, and here’s why. First, the world of Jesus and his disciples was illiterate and lived by oral transmission. Second, the writing of Matthew and especially Joh are just too urbane in their Greek for Galilean fishermen to have written them. Third, the dates are way too late — especially for John.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
So you want to do away with Gods' Word when it is only in the scriptures anyone can know and find God
Oh, no! Not at all! God is available to us through many experiences. God is as close as our next breath and our next heartbeat. The texts are one way, but there are a plethora of other ways.
 

Galateasdream

Active Member
If "christians" are only saved by believing and following God's Word

That's a very big IF. I, and the majority of Christians, would probably not agree that salvation depends upon believing and following the bible (as understood as inerrent and to be interpreted in a manner that accords with your specific POV).

Also, the idea that because something is possible that automatically makes it plausible is a really strange one. I don't think you understand these terms in the same way as I do.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
That's a very big IF. I, and the majority of Christians, would probably not agree that salvation depends upon believing and following the bible (as understood as inerrent and to be interpreted in a manner that accords with your specific POV).

Also, the idea that because something is possible that automatically makes it plausible is a really strange one. I don't think you understand these terms in the same way as I do.

There is no "IFs". I do not know of many christians that think you can be saved outside of the Word of God. If you have no word you have no faith and if you have no faith you have no salvation because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. I can prove what I claim though the scriptures because it is impossible to please God if you have no faith. Did you want me to share scripture proof with you and would you be opened to it? :)
 

Galateasdream

Active Member
There is no "IFs". I do not know of many christians that think you can be saved outside of the Word of God. If you have no word you have no faith and if you have no faith you have no salvation. I can prove what I claim though the scriptures because it is impossible to please God if you have no faith. Did you want me to share scripture proof with you? :)

Really?

You don't know of many Christians, for example, who believe that one can be saved through simple faith in Jesus or the Gospel message without ever even coming across a bible, let alone holding to a specific bibliology and hermeneutic?

I guess that must suck to be illiterate, mentally disabled, an infant, someone born before texts became common, a pre-Christian Israelite, someone who never met a missionary, or someone nailed to a cross next to Jesus.

No bible, no inerrancy, no salvation!

Your theology strikes me as stranger and stranger the more of it you present.

Maybe it's best to just agree to disagree?
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
There is no "IFs". I do not know of many christians that think you can be saved outside of the Word of God. If you have no word you have no faith and if you have no faith you have no salvation because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. I can prove what I claim though the scriptures because it is impossible to please God if you have no faith. Did you want me to share scripture proof with you and would you be opened to it? :)
So before the Bible no one was saved?
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Really?

You don't know of many Christians, for example, who believe that one can be saved through simple faith in Jesus or the Gospel message without ever even coming across a bible, let alone holding to a specific bibliology and hermeneutic?

I guess that must suck to be illiterate, mentally disabled, an infant, someone born before texts became common, a pre-Christian Israelite, someone who never met a missionary, or someone nailed to a cross next to Jesus.

No bible, no inerrancy, no salvation!

Your theology strikes me as stranger and stranger the more of it you present.

Maybe it's best to just agree to disagree?

Your post is simply addressed with this question. What is faith and where does it come from? *ROMANS 10:17 - Yep the Word of God. Would you be open to me sharing the scripture with you? You did not answer my question. :)
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
I’m not fine with that, and here’s why. First, the world of Jesus and his disciples was illiterate and lived by oral transmission. Second, the writing of Matthew and especially Joh are just too urbane in their Greek for Galilean fishermen to have written them. Third, the dates are way too late — especially for John.

This "illiterate" business reminds me of the "poverty" myth.
Many of the people with Jesus were well-to-do or outright rich.
despite the Mother Teresa mentality people have about the
poor in the Gospels.
Same too with literacy. Well to do people were more likely
to be literate. John Zebedee's family seemed to be well off
and John wrote various letters - I doubt he needed a secretary
to do this.
Same with Peter and Andrew.
Someone wrote the Gospel of Luke and Acts together - no name
given but as these were copied and handed around people
would have identified them with someone - why invent a name
when all you have to do is use the name of the guy who
wrote them - he was known to many of the readers personally.
And Matthew was a tax official - knowing multiple languages
was well nigh compulsory for his job.
And of course - people who left all and went out into the Roman
world preaching would have taken the time to learn another
language, and how to write.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Not here, since it will further derail this thread.

However, if you start a thread specifically about the requirements for salvation according to your view, then I'll surely take a look.

Happy to PM you if you like? A thread on the topic will only get derailed.
 

Galateasdream

Active Member
So, in an effort to get this thread back on track, what seem to people to be the strongest biblical 'fails' presented so far?
 

Galateasdream

Active Member
Happy to PM you if you like? A thread on the topic will only get derailed.

No, a PM is not necessary or desired. Let it all be conducted in the light, in public. I'm sure you don't believe it is just me that needs this information.

All you are to do is post a list of scriptures, and I will take a look. There can be no derailing of that. You may choose to engage with debate or questions afterwards, but what you asked me to do will have been done regardless.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
No, a PM is not necessary or desired. Let it all be conducted in the light, in public. I'm sure you don't believe it is just me that needs this information. All you are to do is post a list of scriptures, and I will take a look. There can be no derailing of that. You may choose to engage with debate or questions afterwards, but what you asked me to do will have been done regardless.

May I ask you why you have such a personal fight against the scriptures from the bible? From my personal experience either

1. People look outside the scriptures to try and understand what the scriptures are talking about and therefore are lead away from the scriptures to the teachings and traditions of men that deny the word of God or

2. Others have sin in their own lives that the scriptures teach against that they are not willing to give up.

I am only asking to better understand where you are coming from, nothing more. You do not have to answer me if you feel uncomfortable doing so it is completely up to you. I only wish you all the best. I have to go for now as it is late now my time. Perhaps we can chat more latter.

Thanks for the nice friendly discussion and nice talking to you :)
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
So, in an effort to get this thread back on track, what seem to people to be the strongest biblical 'fails' presented so far?

Forget the biblical fail. What about the biggest secular fail?
I nominate the POV around the 1900's that Western society will presently
overcome the straightjacket of monarchy and religion - and this will usher
in a new age of liberalism and world peace.

Instead of religious wars we had secular wars - about quarter of a billion
dead. Instead of religion we got existentialist, postmodern, Marxist
doctrines that took the lives of another 150 million people.

And all further discussion (once quite common when I was growing up)
about how we will maintain morals without religion has been snuffed out -
morals have no place in our adulterous and drug addled society, or if they
do they are about saving the planet or some such mentality.
 

Galateasdream

Active Member
May I ask you why you have such a personal fight against the scriptures from the bible? From my personal experience either

1. People look outside the scriptures to try and understand what the scriptures are talking about and therefore are lead away from the scriptures to the teachings and traditions of men that deny the word of God or

2. Others have sin in their own lives that the scriptures teach against that they are not willing to give up.

I am only asking to better understand where you are coming from, nothing more. You do not have to answer me if you feel uncomfortable doing so it is completely up to you. I only wish you all the best. I have to go for now as it is late now my time. Perhaps we can chat more latter.

Thanks for the nice friendly discussion and nice talking to you :)

I don't believe I have any such fight. I actually have great respect for the bible. But I don't believe it to be inerrent.

As to how I got to that understanding, I'm happy to give you a very condensed version, and it was nothing really to do with either of your two bullet points:

Basically, I became a Christian at aged twenty in a conservative, evangelical church which taught biblical inerrency. I believed what I was taught, but being a somewhat independant thinker and inclined towards intellectual integrity I read, and asked, and discussed, and thought, and prayed so as to gain a better understanding of the scriptures as I was encouraged to do, always trying my best to go where the evidence led since I assumed that truth never had anything to fear.

Over the years of study and reflection that approach led me away from many of the theologies I originally held, including the idea of inerrency. And here I am. Simple as that, really.
 

Galateasdream

Active Member
Forget the biblical fail. What about the biggest secular fail?
I nominate the POV around the 1900's that Western society will presently
overcome the straightjacket of monarchy and religion - and this will usher
in a new age of liberalism and world peace.

Instead of religious wars we had secular wars - about quarter of a billion
dead. Instead of religion we got existentialist, postmodern, Marxist
doctrines that took the lives of another 150 million people.

And all further discussion (once quite common when I was growing up)
about how we will maintain morals without religion has been snuffed out -
morals have no place in our adulterous and drug addled society, or if they
do they are about saving the planet or some such mentality.

All very interesting. Please start a thread on secular fails. This one is designed to focus on biblical errors and failings.
 
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