Bible Prophecy as Evidence of a bible writers trustworthiness

[ppp]

It means when God allows things because of man’s weakness doesn’t mean He advocates or condones them

It does mean that he condones it. Condones means to accept or allow.
It does mean that he advocates for it. To advocate is to publicly support or recommend a particular cause or policy.

In the Bible God accepts and allows slavery, and recommends a specific policy as to how to go about creating the institutions of both chattel slavery and indentured servitude. Advocates. Condones.

Looks like it turned out to be the former.

Good thing I didn't wager on it. I would have bet on the "it's indentured servitude" copout.

 

[ElishaElijah]

It does mean that he condones it. Condones means to accept or allow.
It does mean that he advocates for it. To advocate is to publicly support or recommend a particular cause or policy.

In the Bible God accepts and allows slavery, and recommends a specific policy as to how to go about creating the institutions of both chattel slavery and indentured servitude. Advocates. Condones.


Good thing I didn't wager on it. I would have bet on the "it's indentured servitude" copout.

Some very good points, would love to engage you on these on a different thread.

 

[ppp]

Some very good points, would love to engage you on these on a different thread.

Sure. Start one if you like. Unless there is already an existing one?

 

[firedragon]

The canon of NT scripture was not 'fixed' until Athanasius' 39th Pascal letter of 367 CE. Before that time certain books, such as Hebrews, were omitted, and others disputed.

The Epistle of Barnabus has, according to lrenaeus of Lyons (120-200 CE), the Muratorian canon (170-210), Eusebius (260-340 CE), Athanasius, and the present canon, always been omitted. It has always been viewed as an apocryphal work.

The present canon of NT scripture has now been established for hundreds of years, and is fixed. I suggest you concentrate your energies on discovering what Christians consider to be inspired scripture, rather than apocryphal writings.

So its human decision. Not inspired by the Holy Spirit. You are saying that in no two terms mate. If its apocryphal, and you say the Holy Spirit inspired the canon to be canonised, why did they canonise the epistle of Barnabas, and that's just one example.

 

[Redemptionsong]

So its human decision. Not inspired by the Holy Spirit. You are saying that in no two terms mate. If its apocryphal, and you say the Holy Spirit inspired the canon to be canonised, why did they canonise the epistle of Barnabas, and that's just one example.

The Holy Spirit guides people, as both OT and NT demonstrate.

To suggest that men are able to introduce error into God's plan of salvation is nothing less than blasphemy. To believe such things is to deny God's omnipotence and omniscience.

Do you deny God's power to control events on earth?

 

[Sheldon]

What is sin?

Google it, it's in the dictionary. In the meantime all I asserted was that there no objective evidence for sin, so your response below is an obvious straw man.

You mean there is no objective evidence that people are immoral, and people deteriorate and die? Unbelievable!

 

[Sheldon]

And how many copies of those books contained prophesies that apparently came true — as there is virtually no attempt of debunking found in writings from their day?
If, as you claim, some of these prophecies were written after the fact, such deception would have been exposed by contemporaries, and the Bible would have been discarded into trash.

That's a circular reasoning fallacy.

Is that what we see? No….the Bible, a collection of books from a relatively obscure nation, has been distributed worldwide and has survived numerous attacks throughout it’s history, still achieving fame as THE most published book ever, currently in over 3300 languages.

That one is an argumentum ad populum fallacy.

Only those looking for confirmation bias, would ignore this fact.

That's just hilarious...

 

[Sheldon]

lol I rest my case

You haven't made any rational case, hence this latest vapid hand waving.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
As long as you don't try and force your own beliefs onto others.

seriously

Of course I was being serious, why would anyone think otherwise, unless they think forcing one's beliefs onto others is a good thing?

 

[Sheldon]

I love it when people raise the banner 'Reason is everything, faith is nothing'. It confirms what God has said in Psalm 14. And, knowing that God is loving and kind, we can only assume that he's being generous in calling atheists 'fools'. Much stronger language could easily be employed.

Yes many theists and apologists, do seem overly fond of resorting to petty ad hominem. Rather than addressing what is actually said. I like your circular reasoning fallacy though, very ironic.

Atheists hate miracles.

Well unlike you I can't speak for millions with sweeping unevidenced claims, but I don't hate miracles, as I don't believe there are any miracles, as like deities, no one demonstrate any objective evidence for them.

They hate prophecy,

Again it would nonsensical to hate something i don't believe exists, so your claim is nonsensical.

they hate the idea of the Red Sea parting, the virgin conception, of Jesus healing, of Jesus walking on water and stilling the storm, of Jesus casting out evil spirits, of Jesus raising the dead, of Jesus being resurrected, and of Jesus ascending to heaven.

Sigh.

It's all too much for a very limited understanding of life.

It's all unevidenced superstition more like.

Yet, without even realising it, these same 'scientifically minded' individuals believe in a miracle. They observe the miracle, study it, and then claim its all an accident. But here's the problem: scientific minds have concluded that the universe has existed for 13.8 billion years, or near enough. The universe had a beginning, which means that before the universe existed, there was no universe. Nothing that constituted 'matter'. O dear! No matter to observe! No time or space.

None of that requires the vapid irrationality of a miracle, but if you want to ague against science might I suggest you find scientific forum, as atheism has nothing to do with science, since it is simply the lack or absence of belief in any deity or deities. Even without any scientific facts, I would remain an atheist.

The crowd with the banner, 'Reason is everything, faith is nothing', now have a dilemma.

What crowd, what banner? Are you feeling quite alright?

How can this state of unreasonableness be explained?

What unreasonableness?

'nothing' is not a concept,

It most assuredly is a concept?

'God' does not appear in the equations studied by scientists.

That would be also be true of any non-existent thing.

Yet, given the two options, God or nothing, the former appears far more rational.

That's a false dichotomy fallacy, so your claim is doubly ironic, given nothing that contains or is based on a known logical fallacy can be asserted as rational.

To say that nothing existed before the universe is like saying there was a miracle but it had no cause.

I will take your word for it, though I'm dubious, but it's straw man anyway as I have never made any such claim.

To say that God existed explains the miracle, and demonstrates that science is actually studying a miracle!

No since godidit has no explanatory powers whatsoever, nor do claims for miracles, and science has not current understanding of the condition before Planck time, you seem to be spinning out some relentless straw man, in order to decry science for doing what you and other theists do, worshipping miracles, again this is a pretty ironic own goal.

With this new way of seeing the world, miracles do not appear so odd, or irrational.

You mean your straw man parody of science, well I shan't even feign surprise it thinks science accepts miracles as an "explanation", but you are of course very wrong. The real hilarity though is that your disjointed rant was in response to this comment of mine about sin being unevidenced.

The Lord of The Rings is pretty clear about destroying the one ring, I don't lose much sleep about it if I'm honest. Since like the unevidenced notion of sin, I don't believe it is real.

Which you didn't address at all?

 

[Redemptionsong]

It's all unevidenced superstition more like.

Rene Descartes went to great lengths to demonstrate that there is very little, if anything, that can be proved (to others).

Evidence, unlike proof, is what persuades people that something is true, as claimed.

There would be no Christians (or people of other monotheistic faiths) if some evidence for God was not available. Yet, you continue to argue that a large section of humanity is 'superstitious', and that they have no evidence.

Interestingly, there is no proof that love exists. Yet, across the world, in every culture, people believe in love.

The NT tells us that God is love. Therefore, where we find unconditional love, there we find God.

Is the belief in love just a superstition?

 

[CG Didymus]

I’m talking from personal experience, I said earlier how I was a drug addict, thief, liar, adulterer and a blind fool so how can I have any condescending air or some superiority? God is the One who is awesome and deserves all the praise.
But brother, apart from God, yes we are all blind.

The trouble is what Policy says below is true. Religions that believe in very different things have changed people's lives. If they don't believe in the same things as you? What do you tell them? That they are blind? That they are wrong? They can even be in another sect of Christianity... Like Mormon, JW or Catholic. And they too can say that they were saved from living a life of sin. But they are believing in things that you believe are false.

All of you are gaining strength from your religious and spiritual beliefs. They've given you a new life and those beliefs are necessary and are your rock. And you trust and know they are true, yet you all believe differently. Would you tell one of those other people their religious believe are wrong? And take away the rock that has kept them from falling back into sin?

If religion is only a crutch, it is a good crutch to have to keep a person from a self-destructive lifestyle. But then you can't take away the religious crutch that someone else is using. But they do, because they see that their religious beliefs are true, and the other ones are false.

I have heard your words from people of every religion

 

[ppp]

The trouble is what Policy says below is true. Religions that believe in very different things have changed people's lives. If they don't believe in the same things as you? What do you tell them? That they are blind? That they are wrong? They can even be in another sect of Christianity... Like Mormon, JW or Catholic. And they too can say that they were saved from living a life of sin. But they are believing in things that you believe are false.

All of you are gaining strength from your religious and spiritual beliefs. They've given you a new life and those beliefs are necessary and are your rock. And you trust and know they are true, yet you all believe differently. Would you tell one of those other people their religious believe are wrong? And take away the rock that has kept them from falling back into sin?

If religion is only a crutch, it is a good crutch to have to keep a person from a self-destructive lifestyle. But then you can't take away the religious crutch that someone else is using. But they do, because they see that their religious beliefs are true, and the other ones are false.

Well put. And perhaps more empathetically than I managed.

 

[CG Didymus]

You say that my personal experience is “just like every one of a religion”. This is not a true statement. So if you can provide some kind of evidence that any other person made that’s the same go for it. It’s not just one event, it’s a relationship with God that has spanned 30+ years. The testimonies that people have of being born again and knowing Jesus Christ, receiving eternal life are unlike any other.
Getting to Isaiah 53, this is just 1 prophecy spoken about 700 years in advance, only an eternal God could predict future events and the Bible is unique in this regard. No other person fits Isaiah 53 so you tell me, who is this talking about?
There are hundreds of prophecies in Scripture that have been fulfilled and are being fulfilled in our lifetime. You said you weren’t blind, that you see.
101 End Times Bible Prophecies Listed | Amos37

Funny, I hear the same things from Baha'is. They have tons of prophecies that all point to their prophet as being the return of Christ. They see it. The rest of us are blind. You see Jesus, and only Jesus, and everyone else is blind. But lots of us gave a few of these religions a go of it. And walked away from them. And we think you and people in some of those other religions are blind. Or, have blinders on that block out all but Jesus. And you know that some other Christian sects have blinders on that only allow them to see their beliefs and doctrines as true.

 

[Redemptionsong]

You've stated that "Scripture teaches that if you continue to show scepticism, the only evidence you'll witness is the evidence of judgement.'
Skepticism is the act of doubting or questioning something.
So you can't use your reason to doubt and question the teachings of Scripture. You have to just believe them or "the only evidence you'll witness is the evidence of judgment," according to you.


And we're right back where we started.
Faith is the excuse people give for believing when they don't have evidence.
And as you say, if we show skepticism, the only evidence we get is "evidence of judgment."

The only thing that enabled your dad to quit smoking was ... his love for you.

If love changed your dad, why are you so adamant that love cannot change you? Every Christian will testify that the love of Jesus is the core of their faith.

 

[CG Didymus]

Abraham was given a promise that through him all the nations of the earth would be blessed. He had Ishmael born of Hagar, Isaac born of Sarah (son of promise). God said he would also bless Ishmael so Islam has some relationship to God and I believe this is a foreshadowing of the Gentiles coming to faith in Jesus Christ as their Messiah.

“So the child grew and was weaned. And Abraham made a great feast on the same day that Isaac was weaned. And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, scoffing. Therefore she said to Abraham, “Cast out this bondwoman and her son; for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, namely with Isaac.” And the matter was very displeasing in Abraham’s sight because of his son. But God said to Abraham, “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called. Yet I will also make a nation of the son of the bondwoman, because he is your seed.” So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water; and putting it on her shoulder, he gave it and the boy to Hagar, and sent her away. Then she departed and wandered in the Wilderness of Beersheba. And the water in the skin was used up, and she placed the boy under one of the shrubs. Then she went and sat down across from him at a distance of about a bowshot; for she said to herself, “Let me not see the death of the boy.” So she sat opposite him, and lifted her voice and wept. And God heard the voice of the lad. Then the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said to her, “What ails you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad and hold him with your hand, for I will make him a great nation.” Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. And she went and filled the skin with water, and gave the lad a drink. So God was with the lad; and he grew and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. He dwelt in the Wilderness of Paran; and his mother took a wife for him from the land of Egypt.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭21:8-21‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
“Now the Lord had said to Abram: “Get out of your country, From your family And from your father’s house, To a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭12:1-3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
“For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:14-18‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Throw in the Baha'is in there too. They say it was Ishmael taken to be sacrificed.

That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him may be demonstrated unto men. – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, pp. 75-76.
​

So, everybody comes up with their own interpretations of prophecies and the Scriptures of the other religions to give validity to theirs. And most of the time it is people taking the Hebrew Scriptures and reinterpreting it. Or... in this case rewriting it.

 

[ppp]

The only thing that enabled your dad to quit smoking was ... his love for you.

Suppose I never met my dad, but I got letters from him telling me how much he loves me, and those helped me to quit smoking. What would I testify to? That my dad's love helped me quit smoking?

 

[CG Didymus]

You have achieved it on your own. You deserve the credit for all the hard work you did to clean yourself up.

In one of my posts about this I mentioned religion is being used as a crutch. It's related to the Santa Claus thing too. The kid thinks he's going to be rewarded for being good. There's a huge reward for believing in Jesus. But the Christian has to go all in. And I'm sure they feel it and are really changed. But, if they did it the right way, it was all Jesus that did it. They aren't able to do it on their own. Thus, the crutch part of it. Without the belief in Jesus, they will fall back into their old habits. So, I don't know. It's like it is all very real to them. But if Jesus isn't real, it was all in their mind. What do you think?

 

[CG Didymus]

Well put. And perhaps more empathetically than I managed.

Thanks, All these threads have really gotten much better with your input. I usually just bounce someone else's good point.

 

[Sheldon]

There would be no Christians (or people of other monotheistic faiths) if some evidence for God was not available. Yet, you continue to argue that a large section of humanity is 'superstitious', and that they have no evidence.

No objective evidence, anecdotal subjective claims, and hearsay abound.

The NT tells us that God is love. Therefore, where we find unconditional love, there we find God.

The Spider Man movie has New York in it, if you go to New York will Spider Man be there? It's not a very compelling claim.

Is the belief in love just a superstition?

I think you might want to look superstition up in the dictionary. Love is a word we use, to describe a wide variety of emotions. I love a cold glass of cider on a hot day, by your rationale there is a deity in my cider.