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Bible Prophecy as Evidence of a bible writers trustworthiness

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Nowhere have I said that reason is not of value. If you ever read the works of Thomas Aquinas, you will know that he wrote extensively on the topic of 'Faith and Reason'. Aquinas stated that both faith and reason are of value, but that each is best employed in its own realm. Reason is best applied to the things of creation, whilst faith is best applied to the spiritual things of the Kingdom of God (my over-simplification!). There remains an element of vagary as to the precise line of separation....hence the debate.
You've stated that "Scripture teaches that if you continue to show scepticism, the only evidence you'll witness is the evidence of judgement.'
Skepticism is the act of doubting or questioning something.
So you can't use your reason to doubt and question the teachings of Scripture. You have to just believe them or "the only evidence you'll witness is the evidence of judgment," according to you.

If you pick up a concordance of the Bible and look up the word 'faith', you will see that there are very few references to faith in the OT, but hundreds in the NT. Throughout his ministry, Jesus calls the attention of his disciples to matters of faith. The simple reason for this is that the NT is a covenant based on a person, not a set of commandments. The disciples of Christ are called upon to follow the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, and this takes faith.
And we're right back where we started.
Faith is the excuse people give for believing when they don't have evidence.
And as you say, if we show skepticism, the only evidence we get is "evidence of judgment."
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Problem is that sin has affected our brains and intelligence… I mean you can’t even hear, understand or discern spiritual matters with what you have available.
Once a person is born again and knows God you can hear Him, at that point when He tells me to do something yes I will do it.
What a convenient cop out. Oh, our brains have been corrupted by sin and so they aren't reliable! Come on.

When you can demonstrate any of this, let me know.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
How so? If I’m pointing to myself as achieved something on my own as if I have some kind of great idea or wisdom then yes, but to tell you, I don’t.
Here is the thing, I tell you what God has done for me and it’s you that say it was some kind of idea or strong mind or some willpower I had that delivered me.
You have achieved it on your own. You deserve the credit for all the hard work you did to clean yourself up.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
So, how do you see these prophecies compared to the Biblical prophecies? I’ve asked about Isaiah 53 and posted many others in a previous post.
Do you believe there are true prophets and false prophets, how to tell the difference?

I dont believe any claimed prophecy meets the criteria laid out in the li k i posted
 

Audie

Veteran Member
You've stated that "Scripture teaches that if you continue to show scepticism, the only evidence you'll witness is the evidence of judgement.'
Skepticism is the act of doubting or questioning something.
So you can't use your reason to doubt and question the teachings of Scripture. You have to just believe them or "the only evidence you'll witness is the evidence of judgment," according to you.


And we're right back where we started.
Faith is the excuse people give for believing when they don't have evidence.
And as you say, if we show skepticism, the only evidence we get is "evidence of judgment."
Skepticism is not always a permanent state of affairs.
Of some things one can doubt, then be convinced.
 
What a convenient cop out. Oh, our brains have been corrupted by sin and so they aren't reliable! Come on.

When you can demonstrate any of this, let me know.
Yeah, you don’t know your Creator and you also can’t live a life without sinning.
You have a sense of right and wrong, correct? Why can’t you live up to those ideals? None of us can, this is due to our fallen nature.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
We have all heard stories of people trying
to quit smoking.
My Dad quit years before i was born after 17
years of smoking Camels. After many failures.

He saw a Yul Brenner thIng on TV.
Hotel room in L.A.
Mr. Brenner had died of ling cancer.
Here he was, very sick, saying like
" if I had not smoked, I would be alive today.
If you smoke, just quit."

My Dad took the pack from his pocket,
threw it away, never smoked again.

AND, I thought so interesting, he said zero
craving ever again from that moment.

Cant help wondering what that says about addiction.

Now, I dont know and unlike our friend, do
not claim to know, whether there is a god.

But I am highly confident that if someone got the same result after a preacher laid
hands and invoked God, that God would
the credit.
My grandfather smoked since he was about 16 years old when he joined the army, struggled for years trying to quit over and over and couldn't do it. He was a heavy smoker too (I've been told), about two packs a day.
Then I was born. On that day, he said he walked into the hospital, took one look at me, and threw away his pack of cigarettes. He wanted to see me grow up. He was 56 years old on that day. He never smoked again until the day he died at age 94. I never saw him smoke a day in my life and in fact it would have been so weird to me if I did. He said he never had another craving after that, ever again. All because of little old me. No Gods needed. No spiritual realms required.

Just thought I'd throw in my two cents. :)
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Skepticism is not always a permanent state of affairs.
Of some things one can doubt, then be convinced.
Yep, agreed.

Many years ago I read a Michael Crichton book that was very skeptical about climate change (Sorry, I can't remember the name at the moment). I was convinced climate change science was BS. Just based on what he said in this book. I didn't bother reading up on it or anything. Just went with what the book said.
Then one day, I started reading the actual science, and lo and behold, I had to change my mind. Turned out, it was pretty solid after all.
We have to get over the idea that being wrong, and adjusting our beliefs and attitudes accordingly is a bad thing. If I'm wrong about something, please tell me! Show me the evidence that I'm wrong. I absolutely detest believing in things that aren't accurate.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Yeah, you don’t know your Creator and you also can’t live a life without sinning.
I don't know that a Creator even exists in the first place. Where is the evidence of this Creator? Which one?
I don't believe in "sin." What I do believe in are right and wrong actions, depending on the circumstances.

You have a sense of right and wrong, correct? Why can’t you live up to those ideals? None of us can, this is due to our fallen nature.
I do the best to live up to my ideals of right and wrong. I believe I do live up to those ideals.

I don't subscribe to the idea that we are "fallen" and in need of saving by some supernatural deity. I think that's a terrible view of humanity.
 
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I don't subscribe to the idea that we are "fallen" and in need of saving by some supernatural deity. I think that's a terrible view of humanity.
Nonetheless, do you believe lying or stealing is wrong? If so, you have never done either of those? You don’t have skeletons in your closet? Things you’ve done in secret you want no one to know about? I believe I have a sober accurate view of humanity.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Nonetheless, do you believe lying or stealing is wrong? If so, you have never done either of those? You don’t have skeletons in your closet? Things you’ve done in secret you want no one to know about? I believe I have a sober accurate view of humanity.
Not living up to one's ideals is not evidence of a fallen nature. It's just evidence that we are not infallible.
 
Not living up to one's ideals is not evidence of a fallen nature. It's just evidence that we are not infallible.
Ok, God’s ideal is perfection in motive, action and speech. I only used a persons own ideals as an example, we can’t even live up to those. Looking at humanity past and present I am hoping you can see evidence of humanities fallen nature. If there weren’t laws and law enforcement what would happen?
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Ok, God’s ideal is perfection in motive, action and speech. I only used a persons own ideals as an example, we can’t even live up to those. Looking at humanity past and present I am hoping you can see evidence of humanities fallen nature. If there weren’t laws and law enforcement what would happen?
You are just repeating what you said previously in a slightly different way. The only way that we could be "fallen" is if we were ever perfect, and I see no reason to think that was ever the case. Everything being the product of natural processes accounts more than adequately for our fallible nature, without resorting to any supernatural explanations.
 
You are just repeating what you said previously in a slightly different way. The only way that we could be "fallen" is if we were ever perfect, and I see no reason to think that was ever the case. Everything being the product of natural processes accounts more than adequately for our fallible nature, without resorting to any supernatural explanations.
We were perfect with the ability to live in fellowship with God, what happened is all recorded in the Bible.
You say natural process accounts more adequately, prove it. I see deteriorating morality and society not things getting better. Why are some people talking about going to Mars? Lol
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
We were perfect with the ability to live in fellowship with God, what happened is all recorded in the Bible.
I don't believe the Bible on that claim.

You say natural process accounts more adequately, prove it.
Prove that imperfect processes produce imperfect results? What is there to prove about that?

I see deteriorating morality and society not things getting better.

Every generation says that. "Kids today have no respect for their elders", "Back in my day we knew the value of manners", "Candy tasted better when I was a kid."

Plato recorded that attitude in his book "The Republic" 2400 years ago.

"Yes, they will be greatly lessened.

At present the governors, induced by the motives which I have named, treat their subjects badly; while they and their adherents, especially the young men of the governing class, are habituated to lead a life of luxury and idleness both of body and mind; they do nothing, and are incapable of resisting either pleasure or pain.

Very true.

They themselves care only for making money, and are as indifferent as the pauper to the cultivation of virtue.

Yes, quite as indifferent.

Such is the state of affairs which prevails among them. And often rulers and their subjects may come in one another's way, whether on a pilgrimage or a march, as fellow-soldiers or fellow-sailors; aye, and they may observe the behaviour of each other in the very moment of danger--for where danger is, there is no fear that the poor will be despised by the rich-- and very likely the wiry sunburnt poor man may be placed in battle at the side of a wealthy one who has never spoilt his complexion and has plenty of superfluous flesh--when he sees such an one puffing and at his wit's end, how can he avoid drawing the conclusion that men like him are only rich because no one has the courage to despoil them? And when they meet in private will not people be saying to one another `Our warriors are not good for much'?

Yes, he said, I am quite aware that this is their way of talking."
-- The Republic by Plato: Socrates - Adeimantus
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Nonetheless, do you believe lying or stealing is wrong?
Depends on the situation.
Stealing a loaf of bread to feed a starving family could be a moral action. Stealing a watch from someone's arm just because you like it is usually a wrong action.
If my mother has dementia and keeps asking where her dead husband is and sobs every time she is told he is dead, I think lying to her and telling her he has just run to the store for a minute or something, would be a moral action to keep her from re-experiencing the same grief over and over again.

I don't think people are all just inherently either evil/wrong or right/good. I think actions can be moral/good or immoral/wrong.

If so, you have never done either of those? You don’t have skeletons in your closet? Things you’ve done in secret you want no one to know about? I believe I have a sober accurate view of humanity.
I have lied for good reasons and for bad reasons at some points in my life, just like most people. But overall, I do my best to live up to my own ideals of honesty and integrity. I think most people do the same, save for sociopaths.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Ok, God’s ideal is perfection in motive, action and speech.
This God you speak of isn't even perfect "Himself." "He" created humanity and then screwed that up so badly that he had to kill them all in a flood. Then when that didn't work, "He" had to send himself down disguised as another guy in order to sacrifice himself for our sins and then that didn't seem to work either because sin still exists and people like you believe that human beings are fallen and deserve to die. And on top of that, a God who advocates for slavery and genocide is most definitely not perfect, imo.

What is perfection anyway? That sounds like a subjective ideal to me. My idea of perfection probably differs quite a bit from your idea of perfection.

I only used a persons own ideals as an example, we can’t even live up to those. Looking at humanity past and present I am hoping you can see evidence of humanities fallen nature. If there weren’t laws and law enforcement what would happen?

Who made up those laws and who enforces them? Oh right, it's humans. The fact that we care at all about such things seems to contradict your claims.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
We were perfect with the ability to live in fellowship with God, what happened is all recorded in the Bible.
Claims not in evidence.

You say natural process accounts more adequately, prove it. I see deteriorating morality and society not things getting better. Why are some people talking about going to Mars? Lol
Well let's see, the God you worship advocated for slavery in that Bible you love so much. Human beings have done away with slavery (for the most part). Sounds to me like with just that action alone, we are more moral than the God you worship. With just that one action, human beings have exponentially changed society for the better.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Well let's see, the God you worship advocated for slavery in that Bible you love so much. Human beings have done away with slavery (for the most part). Sounds to me like with just that action alone, we are more moral than the God you worship. With just that one action, human beings have exponentially changed society for the better.
So, whaddya think? Will he try to pick apart the word "advocate", or will he will he try to pretend that indentured servitude is the only type of slaver that God condoned in the Bible?
 
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