Biden, Pence and Trump.... the tale of the classified documents

[SkepticThinker]

I said she got a pass. I agree that she wasn't charged!


They didn't charge her. All you are saying is that you think she deserved the pass.


You didn't address it at all, you did whatabout-Hunter's-Plea-Deal. You didn't address the actions of the FBI, the DOJ, or the NARA at all.


Again, I ask you:
What do you think favoritism is?


Okay, that's your opinion and you're doubling down on it. It's sooooo bogus to you that you did whatabout-Hunter's-Plea-Deal. Does this mean you think the FBI unfairly targetted Hunter with criminal charges from "bogus" evidence on that laptop?

His plea deal had absolutely nothing to do with the laptop.

After the FBI raided Mar-a-Lago? LoL, yes, they "gave them back" LoL. There was no rush to collect them on the part of the FBI, the DOJ, or NARA. In fact, Biden was allowed to just hold on to those documents until after the 2022 election was well settled. There were pre-election headlines for raiding Mar-a-Lago, but quiet delay and collect them later for Biden's stash.


I'm talking about how documents have been handled in the past - before Trump was targetted and Mar-a-Lago raided. The Mar-a-Lago raid changed things for everyone.

Seems like you aren't aware of this:

"As has been widely reported since the Mar-a-Lago raid last year, by outlets including The Washington Post and Insider, Trump in 2018 signed a national security bill that upgraded the seriousness of mishandling classified material from a misdemeanor to a felony.

Trump signed legislation that year that extended section 702 of the FISA Amendments Act, part of which included a change to 18 U.S. Code §1924, increasing the penalty for "unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material" from one to five years.

According to Cornell Law School's Legal Information Institute, this upgrades the offense from a misdemeanor to a Class E felony.

Before the legislation was signed, Trump had repeatedly attacked 2016 presidential race rival Hillary Clinton over claims that she had mishandled classified information; she was never charged.

While we don't yet know what legislation Trump will be charged under, the similarity of the wording in this bill to the offense that Jack Smith has been investigating strongly suggests he could be charged with this particular felony."

Fact Check: Did Trump sign into law felony for which he's indicted?

Trump announced on Thursday that he was being indicted over an investigation into classified documents.

www.newsweek.com

Sounds to me like he's been hoisted by his own petard.

You are correct that the trial is not finished. I was responding to Metis, but, looking back, I notice that you said:

You think Trump's guilty - so don't play dumb. The thread topic is about the question of who should be given a pass. Do you think Trump should be given a pass?

I'm pretty sure you're the one who threw Hunter Biden into the mix.

Trump has been treated with kid gloves, if you ask me. The guy commits crimes almost as often as he eats meals. The fact anyone thinks the bias is against him is absurd to me. They've been nicely asking for the documents back for well over a year. The raid only came after he lied and obstructed over and over for like 18 months. All he had to do was give the documents back when asked. He couldn't even do that much.

Can't wait to see how the trial turns out.

 

[Ponder This]

Fact Check-National Archives and Records Administration says they manage all of Obama’s Presidential records, contrary to claims online

Claims that The Obama Foundation is keeping classified documents in an “abandoned furniture warehouse” contradict official statements and protocol regarding where the documents are kept. The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) has said they are and have been...

www.reuters.com

Broken link is broken. It seems like the information on this one has been removed.
Hopefully, you can still view this link. I think this may be the story that brought the issue to light. Basically the Obama Foundation paid $3,300,000 to NARA to store documents in a location that was determined to not be secure. After the Mar-a-Lago Raid, NARA issued a statement saying they had "control" of the documents being paid for by the Obama Foundation.
Nothing to see here folks, move along. /s

His plea deal had absolutely nothing to do with the laptop.

It had so much absolute "nothing" to do with the laptop that when I mentioned the laptop, you responded by bringing up the plea deal.

Still not going to answer my question: What is favoritism?

Seems like you aren't aware of this:

"As has been widely reported since the Mar-a-Lago raid last year, by outlets including The Washington Post and Insider, Trump in 2018 signed a national security bill that upgraded the seriousness of mishandling classified material from a misdemeanor to a felony.

Trump signed legislation that year that extended section 702 of the FISA Amendments Act, part of which included a change to 18 U.S. Code §1924, increasing the penalty for "unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material" from one to five years.

According to Cornell Law School's Legal Information Institute, this upgrades the offense from a misdemeanor to a Class E felony.

Before the legislation was signed, Trump had repeatedly attacked 2016 presidential race rival Hillary Clinton over claims that she had mishandled classified information; she was never charged.

While we don't yet know what legislation Trump will be charged under, the similarity of the wording in this bill to the offense that Jack Smith has been investigating strongly suggests he could be charged with this particular felony."

Wow. Something Trump said was illegal was already illegal before he said it was illegal.
Were you trying to convince me that a misdemeanor is not a crime?
Is this supposed to make it okay that Clinton obstructed justice by destroying evidence? It's okay folks. It was only a misdemeanor. It's not like it was a felony. /s

I'm pretty sure you're the one who threw Hunter Biden into the mix.

I mentioned the FBI's conduct with his laptop. You mentioned his plea deal.
You seem to want to ignore my serious questions about the NARA, the FBI, and the DOJ altogether.
But now the news is starting to say that the DOJ may have had a hand in protecting Hunter as well.
I.R.S. Whistle-Blowers Allege Political Bias in Hunter Biden Investigation
IRS whistleblowers claim Justice Department meddled in Hunter Biden investigation

Trump has been treated with kid gloves, if you ask me. The guy commits crimes almost as often as he eats meals. The fact anyone thinks the bias is against him is absurd to me. They've been nicely asking for the documents back for well over a year. The raid only came after he lied and obstructed over and over for like 18 months. All he had to do was give the documents back when asked. He couldn't even do that much.

Can't wait to see how the trial turns out.

Kid gloves?!? The raid on Mar-a-Lago is kid gloves?!?
In that case, I'll call the way the FBI handled the collection of Pence's and Biden's documents baby mitts.

 

[metis]

Kid gloves?!? The raid on Mar-a-Lago is kid gloves?!?

So, it was all fine & dandy with you that Trump kept those documents after he had been told he had to return them, and then he refused to fulfill the subpoena? This is somehow the FBI's fault?

 

[fantome profane]

Kid gloves?!? The raid on Mar-a-Lago is kid gloves?!?

Anyone else would have been dragged away in handcuffs and put into a deep deep hole never to see the sun again.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Broken link is broken. It seems like the information on this one has been removed.

It works just fine for me.

Hopefully, you can still view this link. I think this may be the story that brought the issue to light. Basically the Obama Foundation paid $3,300,000 to NARA to store documents in a location that was determined to not be secure. After the Mar-a-Lago Raid, NARA issued a statement saying they had "control" of the documents being paid for by the Obama Foundation.
Nothing to see here folks, move along. /s

That doesn't appear to be the case.

Here is a statement issued by the National Archives and Records Administration issued on June 9, 2023:



"Did President Obama take Presidential records to Chicago after he left office?

No. When President Obama left office in 2017, NARA took physical and legal custody of the records of his administration in accordance with the Presidential Records Act. NARA made arrangements to move the roughly 30 million pages of paper Presidential records of the Obama administration to a federally acquired, modified, and secured temporary facility that NARA leased in Hoffman Estates, IL, which meets NARA’s requirements for records storage and security. NARA moved the records to Hoffman Estates because of the intention of President Obama to build a Presidential Library in the Chicago area.

Subsequently, former President Obama decided not to fund, build, endow, and donate a physical Presidential Library to NARA (his foundation is building a privately operated Presidential Center that will not have archival storage for any Presidential records). Instead, the Obama Foundation agreed to help pay for the cost of digitizing the unclassified paper records and for the cost of moving the classified and unclassified records from NARA’s temporary facility in Hoffman Estates to other NARA-controlled facilities (for which NARA otherwise would have to pay). A September 2018 Letter of Intent from the Obama Foundation to the Archivist of the United States addresses Obama’s commitment to paying for these costs; but it in no way suggests that Obama had physical custody of any Presidential records. As NARA stated in September 2022, neither former President Obama nor his foundation “had possession or control over the [Presidential] records” of his administration. "

Press Statements in Response to Media Queries About Presidential Records

In response to recent media reports that generated a large number of queries about presidential records, we issued the following statements to the media: January 17, 2024, statement December 4, 2023, statement September 2, 2023, statement August 11, 2023, statement June 9, 2023, statement April...

www.archives.gov

Yep, nothing to see here, as far as I can see.

It had so much absolute "nothing" to do with the laptop that when I mentioned the laptop, you responded by bringing up the plea deal.

Still not going to answer my question: What is favoritism?

Pretty sure I answered this in depth.

Wow. Something Trump said was illegal was already illegal before he said it was illegal.
Were you trying to convince me that a misdemeanor is not a crime?
Is this supposed to make it okay that Clinton obstructed justice by destroying evidence? It's okay folks. It was only a misdemeanor. It's not like it was a felony. /s


I mentioned the FBI's conduct with his laptop. You mentioned his plea deal.
You seem to want to ignore my serious questions about the NARA, the FBI, and the DOJ altogether.
But now the news is starting to say that the DOJ may have had a hand in protecting Hunter as well.
I.R.S. Whistle-Blowers Allege Political Bias in Hunter Biden Investigation
IRS whistleblowers claim Justice Department meddled in Hunter Biden investigation


Kid gloves?!? The raid on Mar-a-Lago is kid gloves?!?

Yep.

They've been nicely asking for the documents back for well over a year. The raid only came after he lied and obstructed over and over for like 18 months. All he had to do was give the documents back when asked. He couldn't even do that much.

Everyone else managed to give the documents back, when asked. Trump not only couldn't do it, but he also lied, ignored subpoenas, hid and obstructed the FBI for over a year. Again, as already discussed.

I couldn't care less about Hunter Biden and I don't know why anybody else does either. But the far right are absolutely obsessed with the guy. It's getting creepy at this point.

In that case, I'll call the way the FBI handled the collection of Pence's and Biden's documents baby mitts.

All were treated the exact same, in that regard. The difference is that Pence, Biden and Obama, etc. all returned the documents, when asked.
TRUMP DID NOT. That's the very major difference here.

 

[Ponder This]

So, it was all fine & dandy with you that Trump kept those documents after he had been told he had to return them, and then he refused to fulfill the subpoena? This is somehow the FBI's fault?

It's not just the FBI's fault. The DOJ and the NARA and other parts of the federal bureaucracy are at fault.

Anyone else would have been dragged away in handcuffs and put into a deep deep hole never to see the sun again.

Seems like there are a bunch of people that didn't get "dragged away in handcuffs and put into a deep deep hole never to see the sun again".

That doesn't appear to be the case.

Here is a statement issued by the National Archives and Records Administration issued on June 9, 2023:

I'm glad you linked that, because it shows how the NARA doesn't make its assertion about Obama's documents until its August 12, 2022 statement (after the Mar-a-Lago raid and after they were called out on it). To wit, what I said was the case.

Pretty sure I answered this in depth.

That's three times I asked you directly and specifically "What is favoritism?" and three times you refused to answer and you are the one that opened that discussion with me by asking about it.

How are they playing favourites?

Your refusal to answer such a basic important question to the discussion means you are not interested in a serious discussion. Farewell.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I'll throw my final remarks here. I thought it was a great thread topic raised by @We Never Know . On the question of getting a pass, maybe the elected officials ought to get a pass, but the federal bureaucracy should not get a pass. They are not above the duly elected representatives of the United States. They are subject to the will of the people. Those responsible should resign their positions. Disciplinary action is insufficient.

 

[metis]

It's not just the FBI's fault. The DOJ and the NARA and other parts of the federal bureaucracy are at fault.

Trump well knew what he was doing even to the point of bragging about his having classified information, so blame must primarily be placed on him and not deflected onto others.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It's not just the FBI's fault. The DOJ and the NARA and other parts of the federal bureaucracy are at fault.

For? Holding Trump accountable for his actions?

Seems like there are a bunch of people that didn't get "dragged away in handcuffs and put into a deep deep hole never to see the sun again".


I'm glad you linked that, because it shows how the NARA doesn't make its assertion about Obama's documents until its August 12, 2022 statement (after the Mar-a-Lago raid and after they were called out on it). To wit, what I said was the case.

So what?

That's three times I asked you directly and specifically "What is favoritism?" and three times you refused to answer and you are the one that opened that discussion with me by asking about it.

Your refusal to answer such a basic important question to the discussion means you are not interested in a serious discussion. Farewell.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I'll throw my final remarks here. I thought it was a great thread topic raised by @We Never Know . On the question of getting a pass, maybe the elected officials ought to get a pass, but the federal bureaucracy should not get a pass. They are not above the duly elected representatives of the United States. They are subject to the will of the people. Those responsible should resign their positions. Disciplinary action is insufficient.

Well, when you make arguments not based on facts, this is how it turns out. Your argument that favoritism was at play here, has not be demonstrated. Trump isn't being treated worse than anyone else. He is being treated exactly how he wanted Hillary Clinton to be treated, under a law that he elevated to from misdemeanor to felony level. In other words, he's been hoisted by his own petard.

Have a great day pretending Trump hasn't done anything wrong. We'll see how those 3+ trials turn out for him. Sounds like they've got a ton of damming evidence against him. We've even seen him admit to crimes on national television.

 

[JIMMY12345]

I made this post on a thread yesterday but its seems my post fell victim to the groundhog day disappearance. So I thought I would make it into a thread.....

Biden, Pence and Trump all three had classified documents in unsecure ares that they shouldn't have had.

Biden and Pence claimed they didn't know, stuck to that, cooperated and the records were returned/retrieved (some through a consent to search) with no problem.

Trump knew he had some, denied/lied he had them, tried to get others to lie about them, didn't cooperate, had to have search warrants served to retrieve them, etc.


Now Biden and Pence when compared to Trump don't look bad..... Maybe Trumps actions even helped them look better.

Bottom line is they all three had classified documents in unsecure area's that they shouldn't have had.... Therefore they all three, in reality, commited the same offense.

Should Biden and Pence be given a pass?

It depends as to American and Western intelligence agencies have private misgivings as to FSB/Russian connections with any of the three candidates.