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Big bang theory?

Know it all.

Shaman.
You keep saying this, but you do not support it with anything other than your faith.
Perhaps your definition of the word "proof" is different?
You give an example of what it means in having eyes but can not see and ears but can not hear and a heart which does not understand.

The very definition of the Big Bang is the beginning of the universe when it was first created.

Link = THE BIG BANG : University of Michigan.

In this I do believe the science and I do not see this as being any part of faith.

:candle:
 

McBell

Unbound
You give an example of what it means in having eyes but can not see and ears but can not hear and a heart which does not understand.
Don't your arms get tired after a while?

The very definition of the Big Bang is the beginning of the universe when it was first created.

Link = THE BIG BANG : University of Michigan.

In this I do believe the science and I do not see this as being any part of faith.
And how exactly does this prove your "creation day"?
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
The proof of the "Big Bang" is direct scientific proof of the creation day.

So there is no need of faith from that evidence unless you mean having the faith that there really was a Big Bang.

The Big Bang = the Creation day.

:clap

You keep repeating this with no evidence to substantiate this assertion. The universe is estimate to be 13 (plus) billions of years old. Your bible says there are a total of 6 creation days. "IF" a creation day is equal to 13 billion years then your math is off.
 
Thats right, solar system 4.6 bill, earth 4.4 bill,prokaryotic cells 3.5 bill, oxygen levels rise about 2.7-2.2 billion years ago,eukaryotic 1-3 bill, plant fossils 542 mill......
disorder to order. Chaos to clarity. "And God saw that it is was good."

According to Genesis -

The Earth and multi-cellular plant life on it 3rd day; the Sun, other stars, and Earth's moon 4th day; sealife and flying life 5th day; land beasts 6th day.

No matter how you look at it, completely totally incorrect.
 

Onlooker

Member
According to Genesis -

The Earth and multi-cellular plant life on it 3rd day; the Sun, other stars, and Earth's moon 4th day; sealife and flying life 5th day; land beasts 6th day.

No matter how you look at it, completely totally incorrect.
Im using 13 century Torah scholars (Ramban/Rashi) to "read" the Hebrew, because I dont know how. I do know the translation issue into other languages has been likened to caging a Lion, it doesnt give you the full context of the beast within.
Anyway. I am using the "science" from many resources, so if the numbers are off a little, dont freak. But not off by much I hope.
Day 3 "let the water be gathered...let dry ground...
Ramban described the dark waters as the elements that were formed, the dark fire.
Science describes the earlier "molecular clouds" as the interstellar nursery.
Day 4 ' Let there be lights... let them serve...and God set them...
Ramban: Scripture mentions Gods command and then relates the action that was the fulfillment of that command. And God set them teaches that these luminaries did not come into being from the firmament itself, rather they are extrinsic physical bodies attached to it.
Science: earths atmosphere clears up over time so the sun, moon and stars are visible. Gas levels were 100 times more than present. Oxygen levels rose in the 3rd atmosphere that started over 2 billion years ago, 200-250 million years ago O2 levels peaked at 35%.
In "my" summary, day 4 describes the earths atmosphere, from early opaque to clear skies with the solar system visible for signs and times (Gods clock lets say).
The "myth tale" of genesis is unique on many levels (yes, this is the time to chuckle), one being the tale is going from the Creator viewpoint, and progresses to his "peak" creation (man) viewpoint. Day 4 we are in the tale on earth, looking up at the universe, and looking around on earth seeing vegetation, oceans, land, different atmosphere than 2011, but still an atmosphere that plant life can thrive.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
the less knowledge one possesses, the more one reaches for ole magic man to bail his empty mind out.

it has always been this way.

gods were imagined to answer the questions man could not. this is a fact.

No it isn't.

Try watching some current day documentaries.
You will be surprised what your 'fellow' scientist are saying nowadays.

And knowledge is not a saving grace by the way.
The more you know the less excuse you will have... standing before God.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
You keep saying this, but you do not support it with anything other than your faith.
Perhaps your definition of the word "proof" is different?

If you won't believe him...how about....


I believe in God as Creator, because of the long standing....
For every effect there is a cause.
For every cause there is an effect.

All things at rest...stay that way....until acted upon.

As for God having thought....I think...therefore..."I AM".

It would be difficult to pronounce these words before the 'big bang'.

(From post #208...apparently you missed it.)

Also...all things at rest...remain that way....
until Something moves them.

you wouldn't deny the laws of motion?...would you?

Try as you may...denial of Something before the big bang is futile.

Denial makes no sense.

Spirit first....then the universe....('one word').
 

Know it all.

Shaman.
Denial makes no sense.
It turns out that raw denial is the only weapon they have so they just deny and keep denying as like a toothless dog that barks with no bite.

They give denial without reason or explanation as like a child saying "no, no, no".

What I see is the saying from Jesus who said that when people build their house on sand then anything can knock down their house, Matthew 7:22-29, so some people have to deny and defend their position with anything as their world is built on the slippery sand which any new truth will make them to fall.

:bow:
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Yes. Common sense is out to lunch at that scale.

I took a quick look at your offering.

Perhaps we are coming to a point of agreement?

Regressing and reducing our known reality to it's most basic portions leads to a corner...that has no geometry.

Non-believers keep repeating...'prove it'!
As if an experiment....or an equation...can be used.

Never.

Can't happen.

No reference points...no movement....no time, no space....no science.

In the beginning.....the void.
No light, no shadow....no sound, no echo....

No way to say..."I am"........and yet.........
 

McBell

Unbound
Non-believers keep repeating...'prove it'!
As if an experiment....or an equation...can be used.
That is because believers have nothing to offer but their faith, feelings, beliefs, rationalizations, etc.

Believers come up with all manner of "rules" that show need for a god, but then turn right around and exclude their god from the very "rules" that require a god.
 

McBell

Unbound
No reference points...no movement....no time, no space....no science.

In the beginning.....the void.
No light, no shadow....no sound, no echo....

No way to say..."I am"........and yet.........
and yet what?
This is nothing more than you showing just how desperate you are to believe.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Non-believers keep repeating...'prove it'!
As if an experiment....or an equation...can be used.

Not (ALL) of us. We're asking for the "evidence". There's no way to "prove" anything in the scientific sense unless it was pertaining to mathematics. We (non-believers) as well as scientist aren't concerned with the (WHO) rather what's important is the HOW.

At present there is no evidence to suggest the universe was created. When hypothesizing a creation we need a way to test it and at present, creation by a creator remains to be no more than speculation. It is solely a faith based claim.

Believers step forward hypothesizing a "creator" and that creator created but we have no way of testing either hypothesis. We can't test the hypothesis that a creator exist and since we are unable to test that then testing the hypothesis of creation is an attempt in futility.
 

McBell

Unbound
It turns out that raw denial is the only weapon they have so they just deny and keep denying as like a toothless dog that barks with no bite.
You have not presented anything that would convince some one outside your choir.

They give denial without reason or explanation as like a child saying "no, no, no".
Nice transference.

What I see is the saying from Jesus who said that when people build their house on sand then anything can knock down their house, Matthew 7:22-29, so some people have to deny and defend their position with anything as their world is built on the slippery sand which any new truth will make them to fall.
it is interesting how some people think that faith is something more than the sand they preach about.
 

McBell

Unbound
If you won't believe him...how about....


I believe in God as Creator, because of the long standing....
For every effect there is a cause.
For every cause there is an effect.
Still beating this dead horse?

All things at rest...stay that way....until acted upon.

As for God having thought....I think...therefore..."I AM".

It would be difficult to pronounce these words before the 'big bang'.

(From post #208...apparently you missed it.)

Also...all things at rest...remain that way....
until Something moves them.

you wouldn't deny the laws of motion?...would you?

Try as you may...denial of Something before the big bang is futile.

Denial makes no sense.

Spirit first....then the universe....('one word').
Still giving your god exceptions?
 
Science: earths atmosphere clears up over time so the sun, moon and stars are visible. Gas levels were 100 times more than present. Oxygen levels rose in the 3rd atmosphere that started over 2 billion years ago, 200-250 million years ago O2 levels peaked at 35%.
In "my" summary, day 4 describes the earths atmosphere, from early opaque to clear skies with the solar system visible for signs and times (Gods clock lets say).
The "myth tale" of genesis is unique on many levels (yes, this is the time to chuckle), one being the tale is going from the Creator viewpoint, and progresses to his "peak" creation (man) viewpoint. Day 4 we are in the tale on earth, looking up at the universe, and looking around on earth seeing vegetation, oceans, land, different atmosphere than 2011, but still an atmosphere that plant life can thrive.

So multicellular plant life existed for how long before the Sun which powers it could shine down to do so? Apparently you don't accept the literal 24hr day.

You are adding all kinds of vegetables to the stone soup of Genesis to make it palatable. There's in reality just stones and water, you brought the celery and asparagus :drool:
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Whereas there is evidence of Creation there is NO evidence of a creator . . . but! There IS evidence of OUR creation of a Creator.

Religion evolved as byproduct of psychological mechanisms.

- Robin Ian MacDonald Dunbar is a British anthropologist and evolutionary psychologist and a specialist in primate behavior. He is currently Professor of Evolutionary Anthropology and the Director of the Institute of Cognitive and Evolutionary Anthropology of the University of Oxford and the Co-director of the British Academy Centenary Research Project.

The religious mind is one consequence of a brain that is large enough to formulate religious and philosophical ideas. During human evolution, the hominid brain tripled in size, peaking 500,000 years ago. Much of the brain's expansion took place in the neocortex. This part of the brain is involved in processing higher order cognitive functions that are necessary for human religiosity.

The relative neocortex size of any species correlates with the level of social complexity of the particular species. The neocortex size correlates with a number of social variables that include social group size and complexity of mating behaviors. In chimpanzees the neocortex occupies 50% of the brain, whereas in modern humans it occupies 80% of the brain.

The evolution of the neocortex took place at the speciation of archaic homo sapiens about 500 thousand years ago. His study indicates that only after the speciation event is the neocortex sufficiently large enough to process complex social phenomena such as language and religion.

Great minds throughout history agreed there is no Creator:
- Charles Darwin affirmed, recognized the purely naturalistic explanation that over time, things had designed themselves – there is no and was no God, or creator who did the designing.
- Karl Marx stated that God and religion was an expression of distress caused by the poor social conditions in which people lived.The real source of alienation for Marx is found in the class structures within society, however, distressed people use God and religion as a means for comfort.For Marx it is society itself that alienates people and gives rise to the need for religion. God and religion, he added, is only a problem insofar as it distracts people from the root of their alienation.
- Sigmund Freud refuted that religion, and belief in God is a projection, an objection or an externalization of subconscious desires. Once this desire is objectified into “God” it is assumed to have an autonomous existence independent of its human creators. Religion or belief in God, is therefore a way in which human beings declassify their desires. God-believers, said Freud, have desires for example to be happy and religion offers them ‘happiness’ – if not in this world, then in the next. Religion, therefore, is born of wish fulfillment. It is desire, fulfilled.

He goes to conclude that religion is the defense mechanism of the religious person to the experience of living in a hostile world. Furthermore, religion is a form of wish fulfillment in that God is the ideal projection of what a ‘perfect father’ should be; namely, loving, powerful, secure and comforting. That is to say that the personal God is psychologically nothing other than a magnified father.


Interestingly and to what I subscribe to is Carl Jung's take on what this Creator thing is. He argues that God is not a fully conscious being, but rather the unconscious force behind nature. Jung believes Revelation's visions stem from the collective unconscious of humans, a racial memory of primordial events that all humans sometimes glimpse.[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]
[/FONT]
 

Onlooker

Member
So multicellular plant life existed for how long before the Sun which powers it could shine down to do so? Apparently you don't accept the literal 24hr day.

You are adding all kinds of vegetables to the stone soup of Genesis to make it palatable. There's in reality just stones and water, you brought the celery and asparagus :drool:
Again, translation issues have hurt all of us in trying to learn about our God (Im assuming you have looked into the question, is there a God?) through our English "Bible".
The prokaryotic organisms (3.5 billion ya) were needed to help increase the O2 levels(2.7-2.2 billion ya), they showed up just in time for the task.
The other "vegetables" that were "added" did show up later, like the extremophiles then some smattering of eukaryotic garnishes (1-3 billion ya).
Ramban in the 13th century focuses on the "sod"/"mystical/hidden parts of scriptures. Remember, there is only 32 verses +/- describing it, again very broadly and then focusing down to man, the peak of creation. Hey, my God described it, it must be so! :)
PS, there is no polaraid pictures as evidence. Look for evidence in the book we are quoting. The best bet is to prove scriptures wrong.
It is going to be tough, remember its the same 3000 year old document that predicted Israel to be brought back.
"No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong." A. Einstein
"I was taught that the human brain was the crowning glory of evolution so far, but I think it’s a very poor scheme for survival." Kurt Vonnegut, satirist
 

Onlooker

Member
Whereas there is evidence of Creation there is NO evidence of a creator . . . but! There IS evidence of OUR creation of a Creator.

Religion evolved as byproduct of psychological mechanisms.

- Robin Ian MacDonald Dunbar is a British anthropologist and evolutionary psychologist and a specialist in primate behavior. He is currently Professor of Evolutionary Anthropology and the Director of the Institute of Cognitive and Evolutionary Anthropology of the University of Oxford and the Co-director of the British Academy Centenary Research Project.

The religious mind is one consequence of a brain that is large enough to formulate religious and philosophical ideas. During human evolution, the hominid brain tripled in size, peaking 500,000 years ago. Much of the brain's expansion took place in the neocortex. This part of the brain is involved in processing higher order cognitive functions that are necessary for human religiosity.

The relative neocortex size of any species correlates with the level of social complexity of the particular species. The neocortex size correlates with a number of social variables that include social group size and complexity of mating behaviors. In chimpanzees the neocortex occupies 50% of the brain, whereas in modern humans it occupies 80% of the brain.

The evolution of the neocortex took place at the speciation of archaic homo sapiens about 500 thousand years ago. His study indicates that only after the speciation event is the neocortex sufficiently large enough to process complex social phenomena such as language and religion.

Great minds throughout history agreed there is no Creator:
- Charles Darwin affirmed, recognized the purely naturalistic explanation that over time, things had designed themselves – there is no and was no God, or creator who did the designing.
- Karl Marx stated that God and religion was an expression of distress caused by the poor social conditions in which people lived.The real source of alienation for Marx is found in the class structures within society, however, distressed people use God and religion as a means for comfort.For Marx it is society itself that alienates people and gives rise to the need for religion. God and religion, he added, is only a problem insofar as it distracts people from the root of their alienation.
- Sigmund Freud refuted that religion, and belief in God is a projection, an objection or an externalization of subconscious desires. Once this desire is objectified into “God” it is assumed to have an autonomous existence independent of its human creators. Religion or belief in God, is therefore a way in which human beings declassify their desires. God-believers, said Freud, have desires for example to be happy and religion offers them ‘happiness’ – if not in this world, then in the next. Religion, therefore, is born of wish fulfillment. It is desire, fulfilled.

He goes to conclude that religion is the defense mechanism of the religious person to the experience of living in a hostile world. Furthermore, religion is a form of wish fulfillment in that God is the ideal projection of what a ‘perfect father’ should be; namely, loving, powerful, secure and comforting. That is to say that the personal God is psychologically nothing other than a magnified father.


Interestingly and to what I subscribe to is Carl Jung's take on what this Creator thing is. He argues that God is not a fully conscious being, but rather the unconscious force behind nature. Jung believes Revelation's visions stem from the collective unconscious of humans, a racial memory of primordial events that all humans sometimes glimpse.[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]
[/FONT]
Interesting, but a little off subject. My reason on commenting is the very last part. The racial memory of ......
I have always believed there is a connection between our lives/behavior, somehow trickles down to DNA, somehow, someway.
Im excited about all the advances in DNA, I read how certain pain molecules stimulate receptors, that stimulate RNA/DNA to produce more of same and different receptors, in this specific example, causing tolerance and ramping up the "pain".
I wonder if we will see how behavior, how physical fitness, how good/bad habits can change our DNA.
Its pretty much what happens for innate behavior, inborn, ingrained "instinct".
Otherwise we have to say a Creator put this behavior in these animals.
So in a way, this is part of the creation question.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
has anyone else noticed how religion flat ruins a good science thread.

no wonder they outlawed religion from schools

this is the big bang theory ,,,, not the how did ole magic man say "poof" there it is" thread
 
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