Bin Laden Hero or villain?

[kai]

I have a question for Muslims mainly and others as long as it can be kept civil i detect a certain turmoil as to how to view Bin Laden. I want to put forward the information that i have come across concerning the fact that the majority of deaths caused by Alqueda have been Muslim deaths.

The fact is that the vast majority
of al‐Qa’ida’s victims are Muslims: the analysis here shows that only 15% of the
fatalities resulting from al‐Qa’ida attacks between 2004 and 2008 were Westerners.


During
the most recent period studied the numbers skew even further. From 2006 to 2008, only
2% (12 of 661 victims) are from the West, and the remaining 98% are inhabitants of
countries with Muslim majorities. During this period, a person of non‐Western origin
was 54 times more likely to die in an al‐Qa’ida attack than an individual from the West


In 2007 and 2008 attacks leveled
off to 30 and 29, respectively, but there are almost no Western fatalities (12 of 571
victims). Irrespective of statements made by Zawahiri and others, the figures, drawn
from exclusively Arabic news sources, show that the Muslims they claim to protect are
much more likely to be the targets of al‐Qa’ida violence than the Western powers they
claim to fight.




source;

http://www.ctc.usma.edu/deadly vanguards_complete_l.pdf


In light of this information can any Muslim really consider this man and Alqueda to be Mujahid ?

 

[Darkness]

Support for Usama Bin Ladin has always been low. I cannot say I know much about Middle-Eastern politics. I have heard many different ranges for support of terrorism in the Middle-East. Conservatives generally believe that support for terrorism is on the higher range, and liberals tend to believe that support for terroris is quite low.

 

[kai]

Support for Usama Bin Ladin has always been low. I cannot say I know much about Middle-Eastern politics. I have heard many different ranges for support of terrorism in the Middle-East. Conservatives generally believe that support for terrorism is on the higher range, and liberals tend to believe that support for terroris is quite low.

I am not so much interested in support for terrorism i believe thats low but what i am interested in is whether he was thought of as a mujahideen or a criminal ? was it and indeed, is it ,a noble endeavor with Alqueda fighting the Imperial aspirations of the US and its Allies along with the zionist entity, or is it a misguided adventure that culminates in criminality? in short are Alqueda operatives people doing jihad , criminals, misled or what?

 

[Starsoul]

I am not so much interested in support for terrorism i believe thats low but what i am interested in is whether he was thought of as a mujahideen or a criminal ? was it and indeed, is it ,a noble endeavor with Alqueda fighting the Imperial aspirations of the US and its Allies along with the zionist entity, or is it a misguided adventure that culminates in criminality? in short are Alqueda operatives people doing jihad , criminals, misled or what?

That is big question among all muslim communities too, the bin laden thing looks like a huge mystery, from whichever angle you examine it, common muslims still don't know how to view him.

As for me, I still doubt the whole thing, it just doesn't make much sense, none of it.

 

[darkendless]

I don't think he deserves a proper burial.

 

[Badran]

Regardless of whether the innocent people that died because of him were Muslims or not for the most part, or at all, he's not a hero and he's not in anyway representing anything i have respect or sympathy for.

Although i'm skeptic about a lot of the information around him in general, and i don't have evidence that he did many of the things claimed on him and what he claims on himself, but i know enough to more than reasonably conclude that he killed innocent people, for the sake of accomplishing his supposed goal.

It doesn't make a huge difference to me if his goal indeed was fighting the people invading countries (which of course there's nothing wrong with) or not, as it still won't come even close to justifying what he did or make things any more acceptable.

He was a criminal pure and simple.

 

[Badran]

in short are Alqueda operatives people doing jihad , criminals, misled or what?

Misled and criminals.

 

[kai]

Misled and criminals.

Thank you Badran

 

[kai]

Heres a thought! do you think that the new wave of Arab protests and the falling of regimes has set a new way of thinking among particularly young Arabs who are disillusioned with things, that violence isn't necessarily the answer, therefore weakening the influence that groups like Alqueda had say 10 years ago.

 

[Wombat]

Heres a thought! do you think that the new wave of Arab protests and the falling of regimes has set a new way of thinking among particularly young Arabs who are disillusioned with things, that violence isn't necessarily the answer, therefore weakening the influence that groups like Alqueda had say 10 years ago.

Hi Kai

I have a bit of trouble with the notion of "a new way of thinking among particularly young Arabs" running towards a sentance conclusion-"that violence isn't necessarily the answer". (Perhaps it is not a problem of intent...but just the way the sentance reads...as if turning away from or being disillusioned with violence was a new thing...?)

My sense is that the vast majority of Muslims (old and young) allways deplored violence and allways turned away therefrom.

I have posted the following several times, so forgive me if it is familiar.

In the days immediatly following 9/11 there was a (less than 30second) clip of an old Palestinian woman and a handfull of pre teen boys singing and celebrating in the West Bank. That clip was played by Western media over and over again, almost as a continious loop. I must have seen it a hundred times over a 2-3 day period. Played often enough it sure gave the impression that this was the response of the Muslim world.....Which is >exactly< what Alqueda wanted- 1/ The impression the whole Muslim world was rising up 2/ For that to actualy transpire.

It didn't happen, nothing like it, but for a while there the Western Media sure played the Alqueda propoganda card.

What did not emerge, what was not shown on Western TV, was ten thousand+ Iraninan citizens comming spontaneously onto the streets of Tehran on the evening of 9/11 to hold a three night candle light vigil. Footage of that event did not energe untill some six months later tucked away in a documentary.

I don't know if young Arabs or young Muslims are generaly "disillusioned with things"
......but I sure am.........and close to the top of my list is the 'violence' our media does in the West.

 

[kai]

Hi Kai

I have a bit of trouble with the notion of "a new way of thinking among particularly young Arabs" running towards a sentance conclusion-"that violence isn't necessarily the answer". (Perhaps it is not a problem of intent...but just the way the sentance reads...as if turning away from or being disillusioned with violence was a new thing...?)

My sense is that the vast majority of Muslims (old and young) allways deplored violence and allways turned away therefrom.

I have posted the following several times, so forgive me if it is familiar.

In the days immediatly following 9/11 there was a (less than 30second) clip of an old Palestinian woman and a handfull of pre teen boys singing and celebrating in the West Bank. That clip was played by Western media over and over again, almost as a continious loop. I must have seen it a hundred times over a 2-3 day period. Played often enough it sure gave the impression that this was the response of the Muslim world.....Which is >exactly< what Alqueda wanted- 1/ The impression the whole Muslim world was rising up 2/ For that to actualy transpire.

It didn't happen, nothing like it, but for a while there the Western Media sure played the Alqueda propoganda card.

What did not emerge, what was not shown on Western TV, was ten thousand+ Iraninan citizens comming spontaneously onto the streets of Tehran on the evening of 9/11 to hold a three night candle light vigil. Footage of that event did not energe untill some six months later tucked away in a documentary.

I don't know if young Arabs or young Muslims are generaly "disillusioned with things"
......but I sure am.........and close to the top of my list is the 'violence' our media does in the West.

good point! i didn't phrase that very well. what i meant was, has the lure of Alqueda type groups been lessened at all due to the Arab spring in any way?

and i share your views on " Arab celebrations"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_the_September_11_attacks#Palestinian_celebrations

 

[atanu]

Hi Kai


In the days immediatly following 9/11 there was a (less than 30second) clip of an old Palestinian woman and a handfull of pre teen boys singing and celebrating in the West Bank. That clip was played by Western media over and over again, almost as a continious loop. I must have seen it a hundred times over a 2-3 day period. Played often enough it sure gave the impression that this was the response of the Muslim world.....Which is >exactly< what Alqueda wanted- 1/ The impression the whole Muslim world was rising up 2/ For that to actualy transpire.

It didn't happen, nothing like it, but for a while there the Western Media sure played the Alqueda propoganda card.

What did not emerge, what was not shown on Western TV, was ten thousand+ Iraninan citizens comming spontaneously onto the streets of Tehran on the evening of 9/11 to hold a three night candle light vigil. Footage of that event did not energe untill some six months later tucked away in a documentary.

I don't know if young Arabs or young Muslims are generaly "disillusioned with things"
......but I sure am.........and close to the top of my list is the 'violence' our media does in the West.

I think you are right.

It is difficult to pin blame on any situation or any one person. There are so many factors and history behind history and cause behind cause that if one keeps unravelling them, then only blameable item that remains is the ignorant notion of a 'me' separate from the universe. Actions that emanate from this notion are grudge, anger and sense of revenge. And the business men who do business in arms, profit the most by sustaining the conflicts.

In this complex cause-effect driven world, IMO, one of the most useful teaching comes from Koran;

"2.44": What! do you enjoin men to be good and neglect your own souls while you read the Book; have you then no sense?

 

[Gharib]

in response to the OP i would like to post a video, it contains explosions so maybe it's not for everyone to watch, but i think i gets my point across, but i do doubt that anyone will pick up on what i mean by posting the video. first watch it and then if someone doesn't see the link it has to the OP then i will clarify:

Dailymotion - Ansar Media Center: Jaish al-Rashedeen - ''Top 10'' - a News & Politics video

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Osama bin Laden was a rat.

 

[Badran]

in response to the OP i would like to post a video, it contains explosions so maybe it's not for everyone to watch, but i think i gets my point across, but i do doubt that anyone will pick up on what i mean by posting the video. first watch it and then if someone doesn't see the link it has to the OP then i will clarify:

Dailymotion - Ansar Media Center: Jaish al-Rashedeen - ''Top 10'' - a News & Politics video

Do you mean that these groups only attack soldiers, and that the American media is misleading every one to believe they attack civilians?

Thats the only link i can see that you would mean by the video.

 

[Gharib]

Do you mean that these groups only attack soldiers, and that the American media is misleading every one to believe they attack civilians?

Thats the only link i can see that you would mean by the video.

ah you got it, nice.

that was my point. do you disagree?

 

[Badran]

ah you got it, nice.

that was my point. do you disagree?

Well i want to know your rational first. How do you think thats the case?

For example, wasn't there incidents where they admitted responsibility for things that included civilian deaths?

Also, isn't pretty much all media portraying them as such? Or at least not only American media?

 

[Starsoul]

Osama bin Laden was a rat.

The rat who downed a big helicopter on his own before they got to him. But got the death he wanted. Had reportedly said 'They can never catch me alive' and they didn't. wish they had.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The rat who downed a big helicopter on his own before they got to him. But got the death he wanted. Had reportedly said 'They can never catch me alive' and they didn't. wish they had.

Really? You credit him for that?

 

[Chisti]

Really? You credit him for that?

You gotta admit, bro - the man was heroic.