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Bin Laden Hero or villain?

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friends,
Existence is always in a balance.
It is understood that even doing good does not earn one any merit as was told by Boddhidharma when he went to China and the emperor ask if his many charity work for the poor etc. and his building of houses of worship etc earns him any merit to which Boddhidharma answered that it was all *zilch*.
So, if there are one's to do good there are one's to do bad and this good/bad always balances itself.
The understanding is that one has to free himself of all karma to be totally free to enjoy the fruits of this garden of eden.
Finally, if in the form of Osama, his karma decides his fate and though the form of Obama takes any credit will not be counted to be of any merit towards that freedom.
Love & rgds
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Do you really believe that "atheists" are less likely to commit themselves to violence? Religion was not the primary reason for OBL's actions, it was the reality of the modern world and the corruption and destruction of his compatriots.

Bin Ladens hero Sayyid Qutb shared the same delusion but Qutbs delusion didn't go far enough for Bin Laden,i guess Atheists don't have a deluded fool that condones violence to spread the word as inspiration like he did.
 

KittensAngel

Boldly Proudly Not PC
Me too. I guess for some people peace means to slaughter those who don't fit your agenda of peace (religion). :shrug:
Well, in the case of Bin Laden the Qur'an was a mandate for Jihad (aka "struggle"). Everything he did as a terrorist zealot was in the name of service to Allah and his commitment to what he interpreted as Islam. And all of that was derived from what he thought the Qur'an inspired as a struggle against what he believed were ideals intended to bring his people out of what others saw as the stone age, and into the 20th and 21st century, wherein rights, equality and freedom could be enjoyed by all.

As opposed to what his ultra right wing conservative Wahabbi sectarian values imagined was proper in enslaving body, mind and spirit. Especially those of women and of course girls, so they'd be subdued early on as they grew to womanhood.

Osama was a terrorist and an extremist zealot, however it's not unusual for certain mentalities to corrupt a faith into their own notions of how it should rightly be applied as a political ideology as well.

There are terrorist Christians who use the most offensive scriptures in a Bible so as to further their psychotic agenda. Anyone who accepts first that they can be inspired by a higher power, by any name under the banner of any faith in it, to do it's will at it's direction, is capable of just about anything. Including abdicating their personal responsibility for such deviant behavior and claiming instead that their actions were, "god's will".
Unfortunately, in the case of Bin Laden, his death was simply a matter of cutting one head off the Hydra. There are many other heads that were ready for that day, especially given he was physically infirm at the start of it and not a young man when all this in these last 10 years transpired. It's a mission, in the name of God and the "Struggle"(Jihad)

That makes for a very dangerous future and one that the terrorist zealot Muslim authors, while their deviant violent agenda paints every Muslim with the same image and likeness. Which is wrong, and yet possible because the peaceful Muslims who adamantly disagree with such terrorist acts aren't as vocal as the terrorists who garner the attention to their cause.Not to mention here in the States, there are Muslims who attend various Mosques around the country who will claim, if one asks them, that it is not theirs to judge what someone else, meaning a fellow Muslim, believes is their political ideology or struggle against the west. Because everything that terrorist Muslims do, is predicated upon what they interpret from the Qur'an that inspires.
The fact, despite what is said in the article below, is that Islam is not a religion. It is first and foremost a political ideology. And no religion of "peace" is capable then of Fatwa, Jihad or the edicts described by Sharia Law. Which only applies among Muslims. Unless of course we're talking about Sharia finance.

It's like any other man made religion. It's up to the individual to live the example of what the tenets inspire.


[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]"At no point do the basic texts of Islam enjoin terrorism and murder.
At no point do they even consider the random slaughter of uninvolved bystanders."
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]--Bernard Lewis in "License to Kill" (1998)[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]


Jihad, War, Terrorism, and Peace in Islam
 

MissAlice

Well-Known Member
Do you really believe that "atheists" are less likely to commit themselves to violence? Religion was not the primary reason for OBL's actions, it was the reality of the modern world and the corruption and destruction of his compatriots.



No, I don't believe I ever said atheists were less likely to commit violence but now that you mention it....I don't see a lot of "atheists" in history books who killed for their lack of beliefs. Atheists aren't exactly a people with one set of beliefs. Atheists just have one thing in common and that is lacking this notion of a divine entity. Religion has a huge history of being used as a means to fuel war. It isn't so much the fighting against corruption or defense as it is fighting against those who don't fit the "right" values and version within a belief system. Religion as you may already know is something people take VERY seriously and believe in fervently. I don't need to read a history book when I see people quoting how they will defend their religion even if it means war. In return, and I'm not just saying this about Islam but Christianity as well, they are promised a beautiful paradise in the hereafter for their "noble" deeds. Religion or fervent believers who believe in killing or making outcasts of disbelievers is to me just another form of tribalism. In essence that is all I see it as. Bin Laden wanted a caliphate and wanted to rule on what he prescribed as the pure form of Islam.
 

beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Regardless of whether the innocent people that died because of him were Muslims or not for the most part, or at all, he's not a hero and he's not in anyway representing anything i have respect or sympathy for.

Although i'm skeptic about a lot of the information around him in general, and i don't have evidence that he did many of the things claimed on him and what he claims on himself, but i know enough to more than reasonably conclude that he killed innocent people, for the sake of accomplishing his supposed goal.

It doesn't make a huge difference to me if his goal indeed was fighting the people invading countries (which of course there's nothing wrong with) or not, as it still won't come even close to justifying what he did or make things any more acceptable.

He was a criminal pure and simple.

wholeheartedly agree :)

Misled and criminals.

indeed.

Heres a thought! do you think that the new wave of Arab protests and the falling of regimes has set a new way of thinking among particularly young Arabs who are disillusioned with things, that violence isn't necessarily the answer, therefore weakening the influence that groups like Alqueda had say 10 years ago.

I understood what you were asking here, and I (we) can only hope that the youth have taken a new approach to combating injustice.

You gotta admit, bro - the man was heroic.:D

What? A hero SAVES lives, doesn't TAKE them...especially innocent ones.

Do you really believe that "atheists" are less likely to commit themselves to violence? Religion was not the primary reason for OBL's actions, it was the reality of the modern world and the corruption and destruction of his compatriots.

Well then he should have stopped associating Allah's name with his violence.
 

no-body

Well-Known Member
Eh, I find more distasteful the conspiracy people who think that Osama was in the employ of the CIA and that all negative portrayals of Islam are just lies and distortions by the western media to make Muslims look bad.

Reminds me of Dawkins saying religion is one of the few things that can make good people do bad.
 

Wombat

Active Member
Bin Ladens hero Sayyid Qutb shared the same delusion but Qutbs delusion didn't go far enough for Bin Laden,i guess Atheists don't have a deluded fool that condones violence to spread the word as inspiration like he did.

Glad you have evoked Sayyid Qutb.

Sayyid Qutb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Noe we can decide what is important to us...to line up either side of a pro or anti religion (specific or general) divide.....or look at what redicalises a human being.

What can take a moderate human being and turn them into an enemy/terrorist... and what role in this process do we in the West play.

Not looking for excuses for violence...looking for understanding of violence...its influences and causes.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Glad you have evoked Sayyid Qutb.

Sayyid Qutb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Noe we can decide what is important to us...to line up either side of a pro or anti religion (specific or general) divide.....or look at what redicalises a human being.

I don't think its neccessary to take sides,everbody has the right to believe or not believe,as for what radicalises a Human being,there could be many factors,look at Hitler,if he had been accepted into the Art accademy who knows what he would have become.

What can take a moderate human being and turn them into an enemy/terrorist... and what role in this process do we in the West play.

What part indeed,i think in the case of OBL and the fight against the Russians the CIA didn't quite see what Islamism is all about,of course its plainly visible in Palestine,the West is seen as the other extreme.

Not looking for excuses for violence...looking for understanding of violence...its influences and causes.

Its influences and causes are Human traits unfortunately
 

Marble

Rolling Marble
I would like to know if there is a believe that Muslims dying because of the actions of a Shahid go to paradise with him.
Perhaps that's the believe of Al-Quaida?
 

beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I would like to know if there is a believe that Muslims dying because of the actions of a Shahid go to paradise with him.

It depends on what the Shahid did. The only place this may apply is if the Shahid was legitimately fighting in the way of Allah (in the case of military invasion of a Muslim country).

Perhaps that's the believe of Al-Quaida?

Probably, and do you see where this gets tricky? Al-Qaeda believes the US presence in Saudi, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. IS an invasion of their country, so they feel obligated to fight against it. Suicide bombing, killing of innocents, using women and children as shields is not legitimate.

It's highly subjective.
 

Wombat

Active Member
Probably, and do you see where this gets tricky? Al-Qaeda believes the US presence in Saudi, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. IS an invasion of their country, so they feel obligated to fight against it. .

And this, >the existence or perception of foreign troops on sovereign soil<, was found by the post 9/11 US Govt sponsored investigation into the causes of suicide bombings/terrorism to be a key and central component (far greater than ‘religion’).

Think- English troops in Ireland-IRA.
Indian troops in Sri Lanka- Tamil Tigers.
The list goes on and back to King George and the “terrorist” George Washington...fighting to get British troops out of America.
You don’t have to agree or disagree with one side or the other...all that is required is that you try to understand what they are fighting for and why.
 

beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
But for US troops in Saudi Arabia - they were called to help by the Saudis themselves.

yes, by the Saudi government, NOT by the citizens of Saudi Arabia.

i'm not justifying their actions, by the way.
 

Wombat

Active Member
Does anyone have any other reputable sources on this?

The footage I've seen certainly looks real and far from staged. But if this is not true, I'd like to know about it.

Anne....Media/News/Propoganda is as much about what they don't tell/show you as what they do.

Sure there was 'celebration' by some following 9/11...and the Western media made sure it was played over and over again, almost as a continious loop, and it gave the impression the whole Mid East was cheering for the terrorists.

It was >six months< before the Documentary 'Letter to America' emerged and a picture of how the world responded emerged-

Which Middle East country held spontaneous candlelight vigils for victims of the World Trade Center Attack on 9/11?
  • Kuwait - No.
  • Saudi Arabia - No.
  • Israel - No.
  • Iran (Part of the "Axis of Evil") - Yes.


Scholars of Islam & the Tragedy of Sept. 11th

International Islamic Response


World Trade Center Vigil in Tehran at Best Iran Travel.com
 

Wombat

Active Member
But for US troops in Saudi Arabia - they were called to help by the Saudis themselves.

Yea....An act seen by many Saudi's and Arabs as no different to King George "calling" on German troops to help prop up his regime in America and defeat that "terrorist" Washington.

The major thing that determines who is a terrorist and who is a freedom fighter is who wins and who writes the history. If the British had won in the American colonies George Washington would have gone down forgotten as King George described him- "a terrorist".
 
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