Blood clots

[SkepticThinker]

US population?

The assumption is about the COVID and risk of catching it not how many people died.

If statistics/bible says you will catch COVID if you don't wear a mask, that's fine. But it doesn't say "if you're in this situation, you have less risk...if you're in that situation, you will not..." It gives exceptions, but not many pro-maskers respond to that (making a point but not changing the subject).

It doesn't break it up. So, if you get the vaccine and I do not, the facts just says you just lowered your risk. The facts doesn't say anything about our personal reasons and situation. It doesn't say I may have had COVID and my risks are different. It doesn't say if I had a medical condition the effects may be different.

Why do you keep quoting deaths, though?

If your decisions and points come from your personals experiences and rational (like wearing seatbelts without being told) how does quoting deaths make your (or should it) decision to take the vaccine worth your while?

If it was, say, in your town and you quoted 5 out of 7 deaths of COVID in your area, I can kinda see it. But not a generalized or blanked population. There are more cases than deaths, and I'm there is much more population that doesn't have COVID than those who do.

So, I honestly wouldn't go by that.

I feel like you need to watch this:

Penn And Teller Solve Vaccine Debate In 90 Seconds

Numbers matter.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I was wondering if Ecco was making decisions based on the people who died and so forth or does he make decisions to take the vaccine based on his own (and his loved ones) health and circumstances.

I didn't say I was ignoring it. I was saying do you use that fact (and I said fact) to make decisions about your health and well-being?

I didn't say I disagreed with you on the facts and I never said you guys were wrong.

Doctors, when determining treatment, would look at statistics but base whether they give treatment based on the patients circumstances, factors, risk level, and progression of illness. How many people died from the treatment is not primary than figuring out what's best for that person's well being.

If doctors can do this, why not others?

I know you didn't say you were ignoring it. But you did ignore it.
And I think it's a major point that is pertinent to the conversation at hand.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I feel like you need to watch this:

Penn And Teller Solve Vaccine Debate In 90 Seconds

Numbers matter.

To be very blunt. I think they're throwing everything in the book for people to get this vaccine. Its a form of coercion and leads to confirmation bias. A lot of it. But my original point was, coercion or not, do you use these facts as a sole means to make the best decisions for your health?

I think they'd do better with magic, though. The video made me laugh but I get your point.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

By the way, thanks for asking genuinely. Much appreciated.

I do know at least on person who has been advised by their doctor not to have the covid vaccination because of her severe and dangerous reactions to many medications. There are indeed exceptions to the advice to be vaccinated, but fortunately they are very rare.
These are things Doctors are well aware of and they advise accordingly and case by case.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I know you didn't say you were ignoring it. But you did ignore it.
And I think it's a major point that is pertinent to the conversation at hand.

You don't have to say I'm ignoring it when you believe I have.

People make best decisions for their health when they look at the facts of the situation and weigh the odds but from their own personal choice and the facts presented to them.

How can someone be ignorant of the vaccine for the sole reason they are the minority who decide not to get it?

How does being the minority make one ignorant when both derive their conclusions based on the same information presented (many many times).

 

[Revoltingest]

I feel like you need to watch this:

Penn And Teller Solve Vaccine Debate In 90 Seconds

Numbers matter.

A thing they don't point out is that anti-vaxers get
massive benefit from most people being vaccinated.
This means there's less disease out there to afflict
anti-vaxers.
Of course, they're still crotchelfestering dimbulbs.
But since they don't suffer ill effects of eschewing
vaccination, they never bump into the reality of disease.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I do know at least on person who has been advised by their doctor not to have the covid vaccination because of her severe and dangerous reactions to many medications. There are indeed exceptions to the advice to be vaccinated, but fortunately they are very rare.
These are things Doctors are well aware of and they advise accordingly and case by case.

Yeah. Ethically, they should go by case. I would assume vaccines wouldn't be that big of a deal compared to medications and treatments. But I do believe even with this its a case by case situation. I think it's the asymptomatic thing that's causing all this fuss. I'm not one to get too involved with something I don't know and not in an immediate position to know. To tell you honestly, if I wasn't told to look it up, I would have never known anything was going on before masks were required. I do the same old thing around the same people in the same area that it would be somewhat rare that I develop known symptoms and rare that I'm in a position to develop asymptomatic ones. But we get germs from everywhere and everything we touch. Medical professionals and people in high populated areas I can see getting the vaccine. They're mandating it for children, I think, which makes sense.

But tell me, how do you become an anti-vaxxer for deciding not to take the vaccine but one isn't an anti-vaxxer for not taking the flu vaccine (example off the top of my head)?

Both follow the same logic regardless the two subjects involved. How does disagreeing with something make you against it?

I never got that.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You don't have to say I'm ignoring it when you believe I have.

Okay, let's re-phrase.
It has been posed to you several times, yet I haven't seen you address it yet.

People make best decisions for their health when they look at the facts of the situation and weigh the odds but from their own personal choice and the facts presented to them.

How can someone be ignorant of the vaccine for the sole reason they are the minority who decide not to get it?

How does being the minority make one ignorant when both derive their conclusions based on the same information presented (many many times).

I don't think anyone has said that being in the minority makes someone ignorant.
Making decisions based on lack of information or bad information might though.

 

[SkepticThinker]

A thing they don't point out is that anti-vaxers get
massive benefit from most people being vaccinated.
This means there's less disease out there to afflict
anti-vaxers.
Of course, they're still crotchelfestering dimbulbs.
But since they don't suffer ill effects of eschewing
vaccination, they never bump into the reality of disease.

Yes, exactly! That's the next thing I was going to point out.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, exactly! That's the next thing I was going to point out.

It's like we share one brain!

 

[SkepticThinker]

To be very blunt. I think they're throwing everything in the book for people to get this vaccine.
Its a form of coercion and leads to confirmation bias. A lot of it. But my original point was, coercion or not, do you use these facts as a sole means to make the best decisions for your health?

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

I think these facts should be used to help us make decisions about things like pandemics and vaccines.

I think they'd do better with magic, though. The video made me laugh but I get your point.

I'm glad, it was supposed to make you laugh.
And think too.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Yeah. Ethically, they should go by case. I would assume vaccines wouldn't be that big of a deal compared to medications and treatments. But I do believe even with this its a case by case situation. I think it's the asymptomatic thing that's causing all this fuss. I'm not one to get too involved with something I don't know and not in an immediate position to know. To tell you honestly, if I wasn't told to look it up, I would have never known anything was going on before masks were required. I do the same old thing around the same people in the same area that it would be somewhat rare that I develop known symptoms and rare that I'm in a position to develop asymptomatic ones. But we get germs from everywhere and everything we touch. Medical professionals and people in high populated areas I can see getting the vaccine. They're mandating it for children, I think, which makes sense.

But tell me, how do you become an anti-vaxxer for deciding not to take the vaccine but one isn't an anti-vaxxer for not taking the flu vaccine (example off the top of my head)?

Both follow the same logic regardless the two subjects involved. How does disagreeing with something make you against it?

I never got that.

People who do not take the Flu Jab are just as much antivaccers as people who do not take the Covid vac,
or any of the other usual vaccinations. It seems to become a state of mind for some people.

On the average year more people die of flue than any other virus to date. the Spanish flu killed millions.
We all hope that Covid never has such a virulent variation. But like flue, it is likely to be with us for ever.
Having an annual vaccination against it will become the norm.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It has been posed to you several times, yet I haven't seen you address it yet.

I probably did but because I'm not changing my views because it's a health topic, it may seem like it. You'd have to isolate whatever it is or give me the post. I've been responding to everyone's post.

I don't think anyone has said that being in the minority makes someone ignorant.
Making decisions based on lack of information or bad information might though.

Does having the same information and making different decisions based on it make one ignorant and the other not?

For example, @ecco posted many numbers and facts. I'm sure many people who don't take the vaccine has the same resources as he or she does and makes their decision contrary to what the majority decides.

So, it makes me assume in general that if you don't take the vaccine, you either got the wrong information or didn't read it. That's not at all realistic not specific for me but just in general minority.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

I think these facts should be used to help us make decisions about things like pandemics and vaccines.

Oh. What I mean is media, government, et cetera are literally using every method possible to get people to take the vaccine. Even to the point of belittling those who decide not to take it. They're seen as ignorant, misinformed, idiot, and so forth. It is actually backfiring, though. When you're giving an onslaught of information that is meant to convince and promote (or entertain) and not just inform, it does either make people follow in a herd mentality or it makes it look like a sales act.

But I do believe people who don't take vaccines, for the most part, have the same information as those who take it. I'm not sure why they would not. It's kind of like trying to find reason to justify why people don't take the vaccine. Kind of like their brains just don't understand...so we'll call them idiots as an answer.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

People who do not take the Flu Jab are just as much antivaccers as people who do not take the Covid vac,
or any of the other usual vaccinations. It seems to become a state of mind for some people.

On the average year more people die of flue than any other virus to date. the Spanish flu killed millions.
We all hope that Covid never has such a virulent variation. But like flue, it is likely to be with us for ever.
Having an annual vaccination against it will become the norm.

I was using the flu vaccine as an example of why people say one is COVID anti-vaxxer but not say they are a anti flu-vaxxer.

I don't take the flu vaccine, but I'm not anti-flu vaxxer. Why would the COVID vaccine be any different in that logic?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I was using the flu vaccine as an example of why people say one is COVID anti-vaxxer but not say they are a anti flu-vaxxer.

I don't take the flu vaccine, but I'm not anti-flu vaxxer. Why would the COVID vaccine be any different in that logic?

You need to ask your self the question, why do you not take the flu vaccine, when it has proved to be so effective and saved so many lives.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You need to ask your self the question, why do you not take the flu vaccine, when it has proved to be so effective and saved so many lives.

Actually, that's not something I considered because I don't base taking meds or anything for the sole reason it works. I don't take meds just because they're all effective but what's best for my health and what doctors recommend because they know me.

With this vaccine,now that I think of a reason others feel makes more sense than gut would be that I have reservations on how fast the vaccine was created.

Edit. Good example. I had a VNS surgery that was had only been around less than 10 years and still in "trial." It's an optional surgery and effective for most people who took it. I still had seizures but we didn't rush because it was effective. We talked with patients that had it, the company that creates it, we considered many factors. I have this out patient surgery to change the battery every 10 years.

It's effective, but we had no other options. If we had others that were effective "and" aligned with other factors "and" was out longer, we would have taken that option.

It's the same logic with this vaccine.


But it wasn't just based on if it worked. Doctors won't coerce you to take something you don't feel comfortable taking. I'm not sure even if they ethicly ask why.

With the flu vaccine, it's not something I need to take either. It's effective "and" I only take anything related to my health if I'm in an critical condition that I would consider. Aspirin is effective but I don't take it only because it's effective. I also don't take it just in case I have a headache. It is effective for many but I choose advil.

It has little to do with effectiveness (excluding other factors) and more to do with "something is up" and don't feel it's ethical to coerce anyone to take this vaccine and ANY thing regarding their health.

My questions are do you take meds soley because it's effective or are there other factors involved?

I'm not sure why being effective would be the sole reason someone would take any meds.

Would that mean patients should take any medication given to them because it was effective or does their doctor consider other factors as well?

 

[Revoltingest]

Just heard on the news that the J&J vaccine
is being unleashed by the CDC.
About darn time!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think, not sure anymore since I've seen political convos on RF, that a med (something for their health)

a. Is not a 100% life or death (or any high percentage)

b. It's very new

c. You have a gut feeling something is up

Any doctor or person for that matter would not try and convince you to take meds and they would suggest alternatives or respect your decision if you're not in critical condition there would be no other safe option.

I'm glad doctors do this from personal experience, but most people aren't under medical ethical guidelines. So, of they have some sort of ethical, let it be respect.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You need to ask your self the question, why do you not take the flu vaccine, when it has proved to be so effective and saved so many lives.

Thinking of a shorter response. You don't have to reply to all posts if your want. Basically says the same thing.

I don't take meds based on sorry effectiveness

With the covid vaccine, I don't take it because X many died without it.

I base my health on

1. Am I in a critical condition that I need it

2. Based on my situation, does taking it out weigh the consequences (not because of others say so)

3. Am I comfortable taking it.

4. Is it effective

No person should be coerced to take anything that relates to their health. Media and people's level of "respect" doesn't help the situation either.