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[Aupmanyav]

.. societal sentiments, ..

I had read that Modi's caste had been reclassified upon his attaining power in Gujarat. I'll have a look for it later.

R.e. LGBT+ rights - section 377 is still in effect. Sex between two people of the same gender is, by law, punishable with up to life imprisonment in India, in stark contrast to one of your immediate northern neighbours which would be legalising same-sex marriage within the next couple of years or so.

I didn't see how it related to feminism.

The BJP has been very successful recently in portraying itself as being about moving past corruption etc, although studies haven't found any significant difference between the corruption levels among BJP vs Congress officials.

I don't think so. A few enthusiasts took up moral policing in Kerala. They were roundly disowned by RSS. I have never read anything about change in Modi's caste.

Yeah, the law is there. Supreme court has defanged it. No criminal case can be made out of it. Removing it is a political decision, because all - Hindus, Muslim and Christians will make a hew and cry. It could not have been done when the elections are due. It is a question of timing. Perhaps with the UP win, BJP is in a position to remove it. However, I do not think we will go as far as our northern neighbors about marriage.

Even before Modi became the Prime Minister, he had the 'Beti Bachao' slogan in Gujarat. The gender proportion is a big problem in India barring a few small states. In many states a 50% participation by women in Panchayats is obligatory. There could soon be a 33% reservation among parliamentarians and legislators. I do not know in what way you consider Modi against the feminist Hindu?

Lastly, a 1,000 or 5,000 rupee bribe is not the only thing to worry about. The real worry was the billions of dollars that the previous regime got for purchase of military equipment from Italy and elsewhere, lowering of standards for the items purchased and thereby weakening the Indian Armed Forces (aircrafts, guns, helicopters, submarines, no contract was given without a commission - Rajiv Gandhi was known as Mr. 10%. He would not even piess without getting a commission) or entering into contracts with corporations which caused the loss of billions, the high level corruption. The coal gate or the spectrum gate. In these three years of Modi rule, no one can point a finger to what the government has done. That is the main difference.

 

[Aupmanyav]

@Aupmanyavn I know this is a bit off topic, but I just have to interject because of your casual comment about women in skimpy clothes going to clubs and getting raped as somehow being their fault.

I was sexually harassed and threatened repeated in broad daylight in India during my last trip while wearing kurta, pajama and chunnri. It's not about clothes, and it's not about how women choose to have a good time. If we want to prevent rape we should probably teach our boys to...you know...keep their hands to themselves.

Fireside, it is not a casual comment. The state of society being what it is after 60 year of non-BJP rule which caused police inaction is a fact of life, and we, Indians are ever careful about our women and children. The precautions include behaving sedately in society, not wearing skimpy clothes, not moving about without accompaniment, not visiting pubs or discotheques in night, avoiding dangerous areas of the city, etc. Sure, it is restrictive, but not doing that is dangerous. If the political leader, administrative and Police personnel too are engaged in these activities, whom could we look up to? Part of it is because of migration from rural areas to cities. The culture back there is completely different from the Westernized culture of the cities. A strict policing, swift justice and education can save us. One must remember that one third of our elected representatives are criminals. Things can change only if some one like Modi get the kind of support that he is getting. Other than Gods, Modi is our only hope. I think he is God-sent. We hope he will win in 2019 also. See what has happened in Bihar which has elected the son of a convicted person who embezzled some 160 million dollars of government money in the fodder scam to be the Home Minister. I am talking about Laloo Yadav.

 

[ShivaFan]

..

 

[Shantanu]

@Aupmanyav

I know this is a bit off topic, but I just have to interject because of your casual comment about women in skimpy clothes going to clubs and getting raped as somehow being their fault.

I was sexually harassed and threatened repeated in broad daylight in India during my last trip while wearing kurta, pajama and chunnri. It's not about clothes, and it's not about how women choose to have a good time. If we want to prevent rape we should probably teach our boys to...you know...keep their hands to themselves.

I had some thoughts on this Fireside_Hindu: The Law on Rape and its Circumstances. Basically, in Hindu India the government is realistic about the degrees of sexual assaults that can take place in society and the courts take mitigating factors into account.

 

[Vinayaka]

Fireside, it is not a casual comment. The state of society being what it is after 60 year of non-BJP rule which caused police inaction is a fact of life, and we, Indians are ever careful about our women and children. The precautions include behaving sedately in society, not wearing skimpy clothes, not moving about without accompaniment, not visiting pubs or discotheques in night, avoiding dangerous areas of the city, etc.

But Aup, this does not address the duty of the parent to educate the child about human dignity. Young men should be taught to respect everyone, their moms, their sisters, and all women they ever meet. If this was being done, do you think we'd need such law enforcement? This is the absolute duty of the parent in Hindu society. When a pair of young men are walking along a street, and if one of them makes a crude comment, the other one should turn on him, and explain to him how we value all people, and this sort of thing just shows how low he is. Social pressure.

 

[Shantanu]

But Aup, this does not address the duty of the parent to educate the child about human dignity. Young men should be taught to respect everyone, their moms, their sisters, and all women they ever meet. If this was being done, do you think we'd need such law enforcement? This is the absolute duty of the parent in Hindu society. When a pair of young men are walking along a street, and if one of them makes a crude comment, the other one should turn on him, and explain to him how we value all people, and this sort of thing just shows how low he is. Social pressure.

In Hindu society we live and let live according to our own individual characteristics. A parent lives his or her own life, his child lives his or her own life although society as currently constructed wants to force the child to grow up in the image of the parents or of society. But you cannot change the path of an individual. A child is known from the first few years of life as to how malleable he or she would prove to be. It only creates aggravation in the family life and is not conducive to peaceful living. The best thing for the parent to do is to scold the child when he does something wrong sure, but the law will eventually have to dispose off miscreants by sending them to prison, so society will take over. Morally, it is best to leave the child alone to go its own way and face this consequence if he commits unlawful acts.

The parents, beyond feeding, clothing and housing the child should not waste their energies too much in educating the child into particular moral outcomes because it is futile. The reason it is futile is that each one of us has the guna consciousness that guides us in our particular lives, that is gives us a blend of sattvic, rajasic or tamasic charcteristics. This cannot be changed by excessive use of education. The change must come from within the child.

We Hindus in India appreciate that and leave the child alone. In the western way they say 'spare the rod and spoil the child'.

 

[Vinayaka]

In Hindu society we live and let live according to our own individual characteristics. A parent lives his or her own life, his child lives his or her own life although society as currently constructed wants to force the child to grow up in the image of the parents or of society. But you cannot change the path of an individual. A child is known from the first few years of life as to how malleable he or she would prove to be. It only creates aggravation in the family life and is not conducive to peaceful living. The best thing for the parent to do is to scold the child when he does something wrong sure, but the law will eventually have to dispose off miscreants by sending them to prison, so society will take over. Morally, it is best to leave the child alone to go its own way and face this consequence if he commits unlawful acts.

The parents, beyond feeding, clothing and housing the child should not waste their energies too much in educating the child into particular moral outcomes because it is futile. The reason it is futile is that each one of us has the guna consciousness that guides us in our particular lives, that is gives us a blend of sattvic, rajasic or tamasic charcteristics. This cannot be changed by excessive use of education. The change must come from within the child.

We Hindus in India appreciate that and leave the child alone. In the western way they say 'spare the rod and spoil the child'.

I totally disagree, There is no 'spare the rod and spoil the child' in Hindu culture. You are excusing these young men to act against common decency. It is absolutely the duty of the parent to provide moral guidance. Yes there is a certain amount of in-born character traits with the child, but that doesn't excuse Mother and Father for setting an example, and giving this kind of moral direction. Perhaps it is the parent that should go to jail if the kid commits a sexual harassment crime, for not doing their job.

It starts by setting an example, it should be clear from the start that sexual harassment is immoral, against Hindu ethics, and more. I often think it goes back to gender segregated schools.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But Aup, this does not address the duty of the parent to educate the child about human dignity. Young men should be taught to respect everyone, their moms, their sisters, and all women they ever meet. If this was being done, do you think we'd need such law enforcement? This is the absolute duty of the parent in Hindu society. When a pair of young men are walking along a street, and if one of them makes a crude comment, the other one should turn on him, and explain to him how we value all people, and this sort of thing just shows how low he is. Social pressure.

What you say is absolutely correct, Vinayaka, but it was not like that even when I grew up (i.e., immediately after the independence), It is a recent phenomenon. The politician/Police nexus and the ill-gotten money during the Congress rule has spoiled it all. The public as well as judiciary are harsher now on this than before, but the police need a revamp. Kindly note that police is a state subject and many of the states are not ruled by BJP. Uttar Pradesh and Bihar are among the worst offenders. I hope with Modi at the helm, things will improve in coming years.

Position today

 

[Vinayaka]

What you say is absolutely correct, Vinayaka, but it was not like that even when I grew up (that is immediately after the independence), It is a recent phenomenon. The politician/Police nexus and the ill-gotten money during the Congress rule has spoiled it all. The public a well as judiciary are harsher now on this than before, but the police need a revamp. I hope with Modi at the helm, things will improve in coming years. Kindly note that police is a state subject and many of the states are not ruled by BJP.

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I don't view it in the same light. This is not about law enforcement, but about education about human dignity. Just how does some young man think he has the God given right to inappropriately touch any strange female wherever and whenever he feels like it. Here, in mixed gender classrooms, boys and girls were taught (for sure in my class) to respect each other's personal space. We're souls in physical bodies, and even the slightest understanding of karma would most likely suffice to get him to stop it.

Rape culture, everywhere it exists on this planet, is a disgrace to humanity.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. Just how does some young man think he has the God given right to inappropriately touch any strange female wherever and whenever he feels like it. Here, in mixed gender classrooms, boys and girls were taught (for sure in my class) to respect each other's personal space.

Rape culture, everywhere it exists on this planet, is a disgrace to humanity.

If he is a spoiled brat of a neo-rich, he would not care. If he is a vilage migrant to city, it is not understanding a different culture. We too have co-educatioanal institutions everywhere.

No disagreement on your last statement. I raised a girl. It is not even manly.

 

[Vinayaka]

If he is a spoiled brat of a neo-rich, he would not care. If he is a vilage migrant to city, it is not understanding a different culture. We too have co-educatioanal institutions everywhere.

No disagreement on your last statement. I raised a girl. It is not even manly.

So where is this nonsense coming from? The government should put up some television ads against it. Insane amounts. Real men don't touch strange women." Stuff like that. I would call the cops on my kids, and they knew it.

 

[Shantanu]

I don't view it in the same light. This is not about law enforcement, but about education about human dignity. Just how does some young man think he has the God given right to inappropriately touch any strange female wherever and whenever he feels like it. Here, in mixed gender classrooms, boys and girls were taught (for sure in my class) to respect each other's personal space. We're souls in physical bodies, and even the slightest understanding of karma would most likely suffice to get him to stop it.

Rape culture, everywhere it exists on this planet, is a disgrace to humanity.

Where in Indian law does it forbid a man and woman to make sexual overtures to each other? On the other hand sex is celebrated in Hindu culture. You only have to look at the sculptures in Indian temples to know that sex is encouraged in Hindu society. In India that should not change because the great success of the Hindu nation is its population such that we export human beings to other countries. Without human beings there is no humanity. So sexual contact was central feature of many guru ashrams too.

In Hindu India sexual contact is allowed by religion and we do not want western values infiltrating Indian Hindu society where sex between a man and a woman becomes something that turns the Indian society into a nation of prudes.

 

[Vinayaka]

Where in Indian law does it forbid a man and woman to make sexual overtures to each other? On the other hand sex is celebrated in Hindu culture. You only have to look at the sculptures in Indian temples to know that sex is encouraged in Hindu society. In India that should not change because the great success of the Hindu nation is its population such that we export human beings to other countries. Without human beings there is no humanity. So sexual contact was central feature of many guru ashrams too.

In Hindu India sexual contact is allowed by religion and we do not want western values infiltrating Indian Hindu society where sex between a man and a woman becomes something that turns the Indian society into a nation of prudes.

I'm not talking about consensual sexuality ... at all. Of course Hindus have a pretty decent understanding of it, with kama, within marriage, etc. I'm talking about unwanted groping by strangers, or rapes. Two totally different things. If you view rape as 'men and women having sexual overtures' then indeed no wonder India has this problem. I can't believe we're even having this discussion, but it is an eye opener for me.

 

[Shantanu]

I'm not talking about consensual sexuality ... at all. Of course Hindus have a pretty decent understanding of it, with kama, within marriage, etc. I'm talking about unwanted groping by strangers, or rapes. Two totally different things. If you view rape as 'men and women having sexual overtures' then indeed no wonder India has this problem. I can't believe we're even having this discussion, but it is an eye opener for me.

India has this problem and rape is not known in western countries, is that what you are saying? Do you know that with some men and women sexuality is much stronger a natural urge than for others? So you want to make criminals out of what is a natural biological urge for some? Just like they make criminals out of people who have driven their cars at higher then permissible speeds im the UK. You want to legislate this moral of the politically correct upon otherwise decent human beings and send them to prison for a natural biological body act? I am sorry but this kind of regulation of human activities is not any kind of priority for the Indian nation.

 

[Kirran]

India has this problem and rape is not known in western countries, is that what you are saying? Do you know that with some men and women sexuality is much stronger a natural urge than for others? So you want to make criminals out of what is a natural biological urge for some? Just like they make criminals out of people who have driven their cars at higher then permissible speeds im the UK. You want to legislate this moral of the politically correct upon otherwise decent human beings and send them to prison for a natural biological body act? I am sorry but this kind of regulation of human activities is not any kind of priority for the Indian nation.

He's talking about rape and sexual harassment. Those things are never acceptable.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The government should put up some television ads against it. Insane amounts. Real men don't touch strange women." Stuff like that.

Agree wholly with you. Also it is necessary to straighten the police. It is because of police involvement that many culprits are not punished.
And let me add, the practice of giving bail or parole. I do not agree that criminals deserve it. There have been many cases here when rapists on bail have threatened the families of victims and victims themselves and even murdered them and the witnesses. Let us be harsh on criminals.

 

[Shantanu]

He's talking about rape and sexual harassment. Those things are never acceptable.

It is about culture, Hindu culture that is based on the stories of Krishna and the gopis which since time immemorial has created an environment in the subcontinent in which men and women associate with each other to fulfill their natural biological function of procreation.

 

[Vinayaka]

India has this problem and rape is not known in western countries, is that what you are saying? Do you know that with some men and women sexuality is much stronger a natural urge than for others? So you want to make criminals out of what is a natural biological urge for some? Just like they make criminals out of people who have driven their cars at higher then permissible speeds im the UK. You want to legislate this moral of the politically correct upon otherwise decent human beings and send them to prison for a natural biological body act? I am sorry but this kind of regulation of human activities is not any kind of priority for the Indian nation.

Rape culture exists in every single country on the planet, and it's wrong in every single country on the planet. It is safer to walk through a mall here in Canada mid day that it is in many countries. There was a recent situation at a water park here were a Middle Eastern person was charged with 7 counts of indecent touching from young girls complaints.

So by your own reasoning, because 'some people have strong biological urge' I suppose if you landed in jail overnight, and were raped repeatedly by the guards, it would all be fine? After all, they were just expressing their natural urges, right? Even the law has no place 'regulating' it.

Do you even know what consensual means?

 

[Vinayaka]

Agree wholly with you. Also it is necessary to straighten the police. It is because of police involvement that many culprits are not punished.
And let me add, the practice of giving bail or parole. I do not agree that criminals deserve it. There have been many cases here when rapists on bail have threatened the families of victims and victims themselves and even murdered them and the witnesses. Let us be harsh on criminals.

Yes I agree, but lets also educate people about what healthy relationships are.

 

[Aupmanyav]

For the "people with strong biological urge", there are chemical remedies. The treatment is easy.