Breast implants: For or against

[ninerbuff]

Mball:

Please keep in mind that there are many people directing posts toward me, and it is difficult for me to address all of the questions that are being directed toward me. Please repeat your main concern and I will honestly try to address it.

With that said, however, I am suggesting just like people who have been socialized to just see the outside of people as attractive, we can equally learn to just see the inside as attractive. I have a co-worker who is quite overweight, but I see a real beauty in her because of her care ethic and work ethic and can see why her husband loves her. I would not have seen this twenty years ago when I was a self-oriented person. I am suggesting that all people, but especially men, learn to see the inner beauty of people and women more, than just outside attributes. I have been around men my entire life and as a past university high performance athlete I know what most men are like – they like to use women for sex. Dr. Nancy Ectoff’s book provides research evidence regarding this.

Wouldn’t the world be a better place if men especially learn to give women a break regarding beauty standards and breast size and just expect good normative health?

I am hearing you say that there is nothing wrong with liking certain preferences. Within normative health, I can agree with this. If I was single, I would not find a certain breast size as attractive. I would prefer a women who is in good health (personal health is a public good) and if her personality was one a desired (linked values and activities of enjoyment like mountain biking) , then regardless I would find her breasts attractive, be them large, small, average, floppy, wiggly, perky, or firm. It would not matter and I think society would be better if more men were like this. So, I am not arguing against broad aspects of preference, such as normative health and preferences of values and activities of enjoyment, but I am arguing that men can change preferences when it’s about cutting women into pieces, such as when men say without shame ‘I like women with big hooters.” And men that cut women into sexual slices – such as breast size, are selfish and harm women psychologically.

I have also heard you say that the concept of womanhood for you is well beyond breast size. Great!

Nice, cut and paste answers he uses on the other forums.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Yeeeeeah, I'm gonna be Devil's Advocate and say I appreciate Trdash's points. I've enjoyed this discussion.

Edit: Though I just noticed the repeated point.

Saw that too. LOL

 

[trdash]

You're still not getting it, and you're ignoring a very important point I made. Please respond to the point that preferring a good personality is just as selfish as preferring large breasts.

.

Mball:

Sorry, I just copied and pasted the wrong post – one I already posted ealier. Please ignore my last post (number 239)

Let me give this an honest try. I think preferring a good personality is different than preferring larger breasts. The former is about something a woman can develop. It is fair to prefer something from another person who can actually make the needed change. If my wife preferred that I be more sensitive to our children, I can actually become more sensitive. If I prefer that my wife use more humor in the day, she can actually try to develop this personality trait. And although genetics has a place to play in personality, we as human have some ability to change this. Try as a woman can, she can’t will her breasts larger. And in order to have larger breasts, she has to pay a good amount of money and subject herself to a serious surgery that can have very devasting side effects, such as serious infections, losing sexual feelings in breasts, and even death is some occasions. She has to put something foreign in her body (in the old days it was silicone) and the long term side effects of breast implants are not known. Asking a woman to make these types of changes to her body because a man likes larger breasts is really crazy making.

To me, the difference, is that the former is something a woman can develop, the latter is something she really can’t change, unless she does under the knife, under someone else’s control.

Does that help, mball?


Perhaps we just have an honest disagreement. I am hearing you, but not agreeing with you.

 

[trdash]

Let's try it this way:

No, they aren't, and no, they don't.

Did that work? You're obviously not going to actually listen to any arguments against, so maybe just saying it "louder" will help.

Mball:

Perhaps we have an honest difference of opinion. I might eb off, I think I am hearing you, but hearing does not mean I agree with you. Its OK to have a difference of opinion, we cna respectfully agree to disagree.

 

[trdash]

Yeeeeeah, I'm gonna be Devil's Advocate and say I appreciate Trdash's points. I've enjoyed this discussion.

Edit: Though I just noticed the repeated point.

Songbird:

Thanks! I've also enjoyed the discussion!

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Got something to say about liposuction, then?

 

[trdash]

Got something to say about liposuction, then?

I would prefer to keep this discussion on breast implants -- but my general thougths about other similar cosmetic surgeries are the same, including breast reductions. I am completely for reconstrcutive surgery when it can help remedy illness, disease and medical/health abnormalties. As such, liposuction can be more helpful as a health intervention, than breast implants. With that said, though, I want to keep this thread on breast implants. You cna start a thread on liposuction, and if i have time I can reply -- but my hands are filled -- so to speak -- with this discussion.

 

[trdash]

The problem with this "looks don't matter" approach is: in the animal kingdom, signs of fertility DO matter. In the human animal, looks matter, whether you like it or not.

I would like to think we are more than just animals!

 

[HiddenDjinn]

I would like to think we are more than just animals!

Unfortunately, when it comes to mating, we aren't.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I would like to think we are more than just animals!

I think we should focus first on fixing all the ways in which we are less than animals.

 

[Draka]

Being that there are so many comments directed toward me, and some have misinterpreted my thinking, I thought it would be best for me to lay out my main points and get us back on track. All of these claims have been supported by peer review research (which some of the respondents in this thread have asked for).
1. The sexual objectification of women is harmful to women and society

Which has what to do with breast augmentation? Is there a rash of men forcing women to have it done for their own wicked pleasure?

2. The very act of cosmetic oriented breast implants/augmentations (and similar cosmetic surgeries) is an act of sexual objectification (again, this is related to cosmetically oriented surgeries, not reconstructive surgeries, which aid in the area of health abnormalities, accident, and illness).

Hogwash. First off, if you equate breasts with sex that is your perversion issue. Breasts are breasts. They are a normal aspect of a woman's body with the primary function of feeding offspring. Women's clothing is a taste and preference issue and how that clothing falls on and fits a woman has a lot to do with her breast size and shape. If a woman feels how she looks could use changing then that is entirely up to her and, for the most part, has absolutely nothing to do with what she perceives a man would want. I personally would be happier with slightly smaller breasts...for ME. It has nothing to do with what any man thinks.

Again, I would strongly recommend people read the entire document from the American Psychological Association report on the Sexualization of Girls. This report not only outlines the harm that women experience, but the harmful impact on society, when women are treated as objects for male desires (e.g., increased violence, sexual harassment in the workplace, men not developing emotional bonds with women). This document compiles over 400 academic studies – the large majority from peer review studies. Breast implants are not like coloring one’s hair – these are very serious surgeries that can result in infections, bleeding, and a general anasesia is needed. Another good book that summaries research in this area is Dr. Durman’s book “The Lolota Effect” – it outlines just how destructive body image is on adolescent women and the prominent roles that breasts play in it.

Any surgery of any kind has risks attached to it. Are you going to advocate that any elective procedure should not be done due to the existence of risks? Are you standing firm against laser eye surgery, tubal ligations, vasectomies, joint replacements and exploratory surgeries as well? Any time a person is cut there is a risk. Other than that...it is very much like a blonde deciding to go brunette because she feels she looks better with brown hair.

3. Men who prefer women with larger breasts are selfish. According to the on-line version of the Merriam Webster dictionary, selfish is defined as: “concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself: seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others.” When men (and women) prefer bigger breasts they are thinking of themselves and their pleasures. Men need to learn to be attractive to women for multiple reasons beginning and ending in values and character traits (e.g., value of empathy, the value humor, the value of independence or intelligence) – that is where emotional attachment begins and ends. I have no argument when people desire a healthy body (e.g., healthy levels of body fat index) – but larger breasts have nothing to with good health – the desire for larger breasts always begins and ends with self-serving sex reasons.

And what of men who prefer smaller breasts? Are they just as "selfish"? As for men who happen to be attracted to women with larger breasts ... that's reproductive hardwiring. Fact of the matter is, large breasts and rounded hips are actual childbearing signifiers. The voluptuous breasts to fill with milk and the "childbearing" hips have been and still are underlying qualities the males of our species tend to look for in a mate. It's animal nature. It's reproduction.

4.

I am challenging people think beyond their self-serving ways. In regard to selfishness, most of the people advocating breast implants begin and end their reasoning related to themselves. I have said this a couple of times – I see the breast implant issue as one that denotes a situation where a group of individuals, each acting in their own individual best interest (e.g., breast implants are a person matter), find that the collective effect of their independently logical actions is actually a societal negative (e.g., reinforcement of a societal norm that “real” women have larger breasts, women are sex objects, and those women with smaller breasts are “less than”). If you think beyond self-serving, the end result of breast implants is collective harm to women and society.

5. The last assumption I am making is that people are caring, empathetic and thoughtful of others. Tomato in post 190 reminded me of something important, which is there are people who enjoying harming others. Likewise, there are people who simply can’t think beyond themselves and are unconditionally selfish and self-serving. They unconditionally loves themselves and not others.


6. I oppose breast implants not because women should not have the rights to change their bodies. I oppose breast implants because the end result is ALWAYS negative to the individual woman and the consequences to society. If someone wants to choose to harm themselves, they can – but it’s the harmful impact that affects others that I oppose. The APA Task Force report makes it very clear that the cumulative effects of sexual objectification is the changing of everyday social attitudes and expectations, in which women are even more subservient to men than in by-gone days (breast implants are about what men want from women). Is it any wonder that with more and more body technology (e.g., cosmetic surgery, better exercise), that body dissafiscation among women is worse and that disorders such as eating disorders and depression continue to increases as there is a great focus on body image?

The rest of this is just your pure speculation based on what your idea of "sexual objectification" is. Perhaps breast augmentation is, in your strange opinion, all about what men want...but you're wrong. How I feel in my own skin and how I feel and what I think when I look in the mirror is all on me. Not every woman who undergoes any kind of augmentation is doing it because of how she feels others view her...but how she feels about herself. I see absolutely no difference between a woman with an A cup wanting to be a B or C than myself, as a DD, wanting to be a C. I don't like that the cute clothes and styles I want to wear aren't made to fit right over my breasts. I don't like that I have to wear certain styles I don't like or don't look good on me just because I have large breasts. Why should a woman who is flat-chested or small breasted have to feel the same way about how she has to dress because of the arbitrary size of her infant feeding apparatuses?

 

[ninerbuff]

Let me give this an honest try. I think preferring a good personality is different than preferring larger breasts. The former is about something a woman can develop. It is fair to prefer something from another person who can actually make the needed change. If my wife preferred that I be more sensitive to our children, I can actually become more sensitive. If I prefer that my wife use more humor in the day, she can actually try to develop this personality trait. And although genetics has a place to play in personality, we as human have some ability to change this.

So it's okay to "selfishly" to try to get your wife develop a personality trait when it may not be in her? What if she doesn't want to develop that, are you SOL or do you still try to enforce it?

 

[Koldo]

Let me give this an honest try. I think preferring a good personality is different than preferring larger breasts. The former is about something a woman can develop. It is fair to prefer something from another person who can actually make the needed change. If my wife preferred that I be more sensitive to our children, I can actually become more sensitive. If I prefer that my wife use more humor in the day, she can actually try to develop this personality trait. And although genetics has a place to play in personality, we as human have some ability to change this. Try as a woman can, she can’t will her breasts larger. And in order to have larger breasts, she has to pay a good amount of money and subject herself to a serious surgery that can have very devasting side effects, such as serious infections, losing sexual feelings in breasts, and even death is some occasions. She has to put something foreign in her body (in the old days it was silicone) and the long term side effects of breast implants are not known. Asking a woman to make these types of changes to her body because a man likes larger breasts is really crazy making.

To me, the difference, is that the former is something a woman can develop, the latter is something she really can’t change, unless she does under the knife, under someone else’s control.

ninerbuff has already posted about this, anyway...

Isn't it very selfish to want anyone to change their personality?

It is also worth note that just because a given man has preference over large breasts it doesn't mean this man will ask his wife/girlfriend for her to get breast implants.

 

[Magic Man]

Mball:

Sorry, I just copied and pasted the wrong post – one I already posted ealier. Please ignore my last post (number 239)

Let me give this an honest try. I think preferring a good personality is different than preferring larger breasts. The former is about something a woman can develop. It is fair to prefer something from another person who can actually make the needed change. If my wife preferred that I be more sensitive to our children, I can actually become more sensitive. If I prefer that my wife use more humor in the day, she can actually try to develop this personality trait. And although genetics has a place to play in personality, we as human have some ability to change this. Try as a woman can, she can’t will her breasts larger. And in order to have larger breasts, she has to pay a good amount of money and subject herself to a serious surgery that can have very devasting side effects, such as serious infections, losing sexual feelings in breasts, and even death is some occasions. She has to put something foreign in her body (in the old days it was silicone) and the long term side effects of breast implants are not known. Asking a woman to make these types of changes to her body because a man likes larger breasts is really crazy making.

To me, the difference, is that the former is something a woman can develop, the latter is something she really can’t change, unless she does under the knife, under someone else’s control.

Does that help, mball?

No, it doesn't. The point is that whether you prefer big boobs, beautiful eyes, a good sense of humor or a good overall personality, it's all equally selfish. The fact that a woman can change her personality doesn't make it less selfish, especially since she can also change her eye color and breast size.

What you're doing here is trying to rationalize your preference for choosing based on personality over choosing based on looks.

Perhaps we just have an honest disagreement. I am hearing you, but not agreeing with you.

We do have an honest disagreement, but I don't think you're really letting yourself grasp my side. For the same reason you consider judging a potential mate based on breast size selfish, you would have to consider judging a potential mate based on personality selfish. The difference is that it's been ingrained in us that judging solely based on looks is shallow and wrong, and judging based on personality is deep and good. In the end they're the same thing: judging based on your personal likes and dislikes.

 

[ninerbuff]

No, it doesn't. The point is that whether you prefer big boobs, beautiful eyes, a good sense of humor or a good overall personality, it's all equally selfish. The fact that a woman can change her personality doesn't make it less selfish, especially since she can also change her eye color and breast size.

What you're doing here is trying to rationalize your preference for choosing based on personality over choosing based on looks.



We do have an honest disagreement, but I don't think you're really letting yourself grasp my side. For the same reason you consider judging a potential mate based on breast size selfish, you would have to consider judging a potential mate based on personality selfish. The difference is that it's been ingrained in us that judging solely based on looks is shallow and wrong, and judging based on personality is deep and good. In the end they're the same thing: judging based on your personal likes and dislikes.

I'm telling ya mball, a person that "supervises" and "counsels" people doesn't understand that they could be wrong. Apparently people come to him for knowledge, so his knowledge must be right and can't be challenged.
He ignores me now because I debunked his BS based on his posts, and used his own sources to show that he tries to manipulate it to prove his views are correct. Apparently to him my comprehension sucks, yet this guy can't comprehend how to address questions DIRECTLY asked of him.

 

[trdash]

Unfortunately, when it comes to mating, we aren't.

My expereince is the exact opposite.

 

[trdash]

Draka:
I am looking at breast implants from a societal perspective and I think you are looking at it from an individual perspective. In many ways, I see breast implants like smoking. People can smoke and people can get breast implants. I do not oppose breast implants regarding female rights. There is a long line of research that smoking, in the long run, harms individuals. There is research that suggests the same with breast implants. Tobacco companies use very manipulative advertisements to trick/convince people into smoking. The American Society of Plastic Surgeons use very manipulative advertisements to trick/convince people into cosmetic surgery. With this said, I am still ok with people who smoke or people who get cosmetic surgery – if they want to harm themselves, they can.

The part I oppose is that smokers and women who get breast implants harm other people in the process. In smoking its second-hand smoke. In breast implants it’s the sexual objectification of women, that is a social problem and danger. Both smoking and the sexual objectification of women causes suffering to others, the difference is one is through a physical process (cancer cells) and the other is through a sociological psychological process (eating disorders, body dysmorphic disorder). In past posts I have provided medical research that outlines that women who have breast implants surgeries have a much higher prevalence of mental illness (in one study it was a threefold increase in suicide idieation). You can think my comments about sexual objectification are pure speculation. There are people who still think today that smoking has no association with cancer and illness. But I would encourage you to read the APA report of the Sexualization of Girls, to learn how serious of an issue this is. Here is a link – give it an honest read. And the act of putting a foreign substance to make breasts more larger and perky – which has no health benefits (and has a hosts of health side effects) is the self oriented sexual objectification. The only purpose for such operations is to look sexually pleasing.

I completely agree with you that breast should not have a primary function of sex. You are right, that there main function is to feed babies. However, I think the women who get breast implants are not getting them to become better at breast feeding. The primary purpose is to look good and the message behind better breast image is sexual. Our society would be a kinder place if men and women put less sexual emphasis on breasts.

I agree with you there is an animal nature to men liking larger breasts. I simply think society would be better and kinder if men could advance beyond this animal nature.

Mball:
We are just going to have to agree to disagree. I have laid out my thoughts and you have laid out yours, and we simply have an honest disagreement. You feel there is no difference in preferring a body shape to a personality type. I think there is a big difference. We are just going to have to disagree.

 

[trdash]

One more thing, I forgot, I need to spend less time posting. Its time consuming -- so I am going to be less invovled. But I am not going away and if people want to coninue this discussion, you can count on my invovlement -- but to a lesser pace of writing.

Overall, and for the most part, I think this ia a pretty fun discussion.

 

[Revoltingest]

Draka:
I am looking at breast implants from a societal perspective.....

I prefer to look at them from an after-installation perspective.

There is research that suggests the same with breast implants.

But tobacco can harm the non-smoker who breathes the 2nd hand smoke.
There's no such risk for surgically enhanced hooters.
(For smokers who don't subject others to their fumes, I won't stop'm from lighting up.)

The part I oppose is that smokers and women who get breast implants harm other people in the process. In smoking its second-hand smoke. In breast implants it’s the sexual objectification of women.....

Then I presume that you also oppose makeup, CFM pumps, hot pants, bikinis, Wonder Bras, straightened teeth, bleach blonds, & Fargginay?

.....that is a social problem and danger.

A bigger problem I see is when pontiffs & prudes want to restrict liberty in order to make us more chaste & pious.

 

[Magic Man]

Mball:
We are just going to have to agree to disagree. I have laid out my thoughts and you have laid out yours, and we simply have an honest disagreement. You feel there is no difference in preferring a body shape to a personality type. I think there is a big difference. We are just going to have to disagree.

The difference is that I've supported my opinion. When yours is challenged legitimately, it seems your response is to "agree to disagree" instead of supporting it.

You don't have to respond, but at least think about these questions:

Why do you want a woman with a good personality? Do you want that quality in her for her sake or yours?

Why would someone want big breasts on a woman? Do they want that quality for her sake or their own?

Considering the answers to the questions are the same, why would one be selfish while the other is not?