Breast implants: For or against

[trdash]

I prefer to look at them from an after-installation perspective.


A bigger problem I see is when pontiffs & prudes want to restrict liberty in order to make us more chaste & pious.

I really see it more as related to health. Honestly, not fixing crooked teeth can end up as a digestive problem, high heels harms the tendons in the foot. But I do not think wonderbra's are needed. It ho0nestly always goes back, for me, to, what makes people healthy and what makes society health. In all honesty, I ahve wondered about the role of nude beaches -- and although I hacve been opposted to them in the past -- if there is good research that suggests they can be a benefit, I might be for them. Some of the research I have read suggests they can help people get over the hollywood Barbie doll image and it would educate people about real bodies.

Throughout this thread, my answers go back to health. And where we disagree is that I beleive - -and have provided supportive evidence -- that breast implants is an act of sexual objectification and sexual objecfitication is harmful to women as indivudals and to society.

 

[Revoltingest]

I really see it more as related to health. Honestly, not fixing crooked teeth can end up as a digestive problem, high heels harms the tendons in the foot. But I do not think wonderbra's are needed. It ho0nestly always goes back, for me, to, what makes people healthy and what makes society health. In all honesty, I ahve wondered about the role of nude beaches -- and although I hacve been opposted to them in the past -- if there is good research that suggests they can be a benefit, I might be for them. Some of the research I have read suggests they can help people get over the hollywood Barbie doll image and it would educate people about real bodies.
Throughout this thread, my answers go back to health. And where we disagree is that I beleive - -and have provided supportive evidence -- that breast implants is an act of sexual objectification and sexual objecfitication is harmful to women as indivudals and to society.

Certainly, there is some truth in what you say.
Perhaps we can agree that liberty without compulsion is good.
But for me, a healthy society is one where women folk have the right to become hotter.

 

[Songbird]

Regardless of one's stance, I kind of think everyone jumped on the bandwagon against the OP.

Do people truly equate breast size preference with personality/character preference? It's really just as self-centered to prefer being with someone who's honest as it is to prefer large breasts? Come on.

 

[Sunstone]

I've noticed that I tend to fall in love with my lover's body once I've had a lot of sex with it. When I've been with big chested women, I've come to love their breasts. And when I've been with with small chested women, I've come to love their breasts. I imagine I would come to love a woman's implants if I loved her.

 

[ninerbuff]

Draka:
I am looking at breast implants from a societal perspective and I think you are looking at it from an individual perspective. In many ways, I see breast implants like smoking. People can smoke and people can get breast implants. I do not oppose breast implants regarding female rights. There is a long line of research that smoking, in the long run, harms individuals. There is research that suggests the same with breast implants. Tobacco companies use very manipulative advertisements to trick/convince people into smoking. The American Society of Plastic Surgeons use very manipulative advertisements to trick/convince people into cosmetic surgery. With this said, I am still ok with people who smoke or people who get cosmetic surgery – if they want to harm themselves, they can.

The part I oppose is that smokers and women who get breast implants harm other people in the process. In smoking its second-hand smoke. In breast implants it’s the sexual objectification of women, that is a social problem and danger. Both smoking and the sexual objectification of women causes suffering to others, the difference is one is through a physical process (cancer cells) and the other is through a sociological psychological process (eating disorders, body dysmorphic disorder). In past posts I have provided medical research that outlines that women who have breast implants surgeries have a much higher prevalence of mental illness (in one study it was a threefold increase in suicide idieation). You can think my comments about sexual objectification are pure speculation. There are people who still think today that smoking has no association with cancer and illness. But I would encourage you to read the APA report of the Sexualization of Girls, to learn how serious of an issue this is. Here is a link – give it an honest read. And the act of putting a foreign substance to make breasts more larger and perky – which has no health benefits (and has a hosts of health side effects) is the self oriented sexual objectification. The only purpose for such operations is to look sexually pleasing.

I completely agree with you that breast should not have a primary function of sex. You are right, that there main function is to feed babies. However, I think the women who get breast implants are not getting them to become better at breast feeding. The primary purpose is to look good and the message behind better breast image is sexual. Our society would be a kinder place if men and women put less sexual emphasis on breasts.

I agree with you there is an animal nature to men liking larger breasts. I simply think society would be better and kinder if men could advance beyond this animal nature.

What a stupid analysis. Compare how many people die from smoking to breast augmentation:
443,000 deaths per year from smoking
CDC - Fact Sheet - Fast Facts - Smoking & Tobacco Use

virtually zero from breast augmentation
Surgery.com - Breast Augmentation Mortality Rate, Statistics, Morbidity and Facts

Your penchant for trying to distort how people SHOULD ACT is based on your morals and not society's.

 

[Koldo]

trdash,
It has been pointed out three times already, and you have yet to address this argument:
Why is having preference over a certain breast size any more selfish than having preference over a certain kind of personality?

Also, let me ask you: Aren't many women seen as being sexual objects even without breast implants? I have already pointed out that a nearly flat chested woman can be seen as a sexual object.

To me, breast implants have to do with sexual objetification as much as make-up, sensual clothing, and so on and on.

 

[Draka]

Draka:
I am looking at breast implants from a societal perspective and I think you are looking at it from an individual perspective.

That would be because my breasts are my breasts, not "society's" breasts. Do you look at painted fingernails, colored contacts, make up, haircuts, muscles, high heel shoes, sports cars, speedos, cologne, aftershave and so on from a "societal perspective" as well? Or does your strange obsession only pertain to boobies?

In many ways, I see breast implants like smoking. People can smoke and people can get breast implants. I do not oppose breast implants regarding female rights. There is a long line of research that smoking, in the long run, harms individuals. There is research that suggests the same with breast implants.

Bullspit. Smoking causes cancer and emphysema and affects everyone around the smoke. If I have little bags of saline in my ta-tas it's not going to cause me cancer and it isn't going to do a damn thing to you.

Tobacco companies use very manipulative advertisements to trick/convince people into smoking. The American Society of Plastic Surgeons use very manipulative advertisements to trick/convince people into cosmetic surgery. With this said, I am still ok with people who smoke or people who get cosmetic surgery – if they want to harm themselves, they can.

'The American Society of Plastic Surgeons' dictates how certain shirts and dresses are made so that I either wear something that is pretty but is stretched across my melons like a rubber band about to snap or I wear something plain and drab that fits like a tent so as to cover them? I didn't know that. Thanks for educating me. I now know that plastic surgeons are behind all fashion designs.

The part I oppose is that smokers and women who get breast implants harm other people in the process. In smoking its second-hand smoke. In breast implants it’s the sexual objectification of women, that is a social problem and danger. Both smoking and the sexual objectification of women causes suffering to others, the difference is one is through a physical process (cancer cells) and the other is through a sociological psychological process (eating disorders, body dysmorphic disorder).

Let me ask you this then. Does the pure existence of big boobs in general contribute to the "sexual objectification" of women? yes or no? Because either big boobs contribute to to the problem or not. Completely disregard if they are fake or not. Some fake boobies are done so well they look real and you can't tell that they are fake. Put a woman with a really convincing boob job next to a woman with natural big boobs and tell me...are they both contributing to this "sexual objectification" of women you are so concerned about? Plain and simple...I have huge ta-tas. I did nothing to have them. I've always had big boobs...way back since junior high. Even in the military when the rest of my body was very lean and muscular with only 20% body fat (for a woman that's VERY good btw) I STILL had my impressive hooters. Am I now, and have I always been, contributing to the "sexual objectification" of other women? Yes or no?

In past posts I have provided medical research that outlines that women who have breast implants surgeries have a much higher prevalence of mental illness (in one study it was a threefold increase in suicide idieation). You can think my comments about sexual objectification are pure speculation. There are people who still think today that smoking has no association with cancer and illness. But I would encourage you to read the APA report of the Sexualization of Girls, to learn how serious of an issue this is. Here is a link – give it an honest read. And the act of putting a foreign substance to make breasts more larger and perky – which has no health benefits (and has a hosts of health side effects) is the self oriented sexual objectification. The only purpose for such operations is to look sexually pleasing.

So now you say that wanting bigger boobs is directly connected to mental illness? Would you say the same for those who want smaller breasts as well? What is the difference? Again, breast augmentation is NOT all about being "sexually pleasing". It's about feeling comfortable in one's skin. If it was all about being "sexually pleasing" then women would be changing their breast size every time they set their sights on a particular man and found out what size he happened to like. Women don't do that do they? If it was all about looking "sexually pleasing", and big boobs is all that matters when it comes to "sexually pleasing", I'd be nuts to even consider the idea of having smaller breasts. Am I nuts?

I completely agree with you that breast should not have a primary function of sex. You are right, that there main function is to feed babies. However, I think the women who get breast implants are not getting them to become better at breast feeding. The primary purpose is to look good and the message behind better breast image is sexual. Our society would be a kinder place if men and women put less sexual emphasis on breasts.

The "message" behind breast image is sexual? That is your hang-up. How I feel about MY breasts is NOT sexual. It's self-image. If it was "sexual" then I would be doing everything to myself just to please some jerkwad man with a boobie obsession. Do you think the same thing for nose-jobs? Are they sexual? What about having ears pinned back that stick out? Is that for sexual reasons? How about if a woman with a recessed chin gets a chin implant because she's unhappy with her own face when she looks in the mirror? Is THAT sexual? Just because someone wants to change something about themselves it doesn't mean they are doing it for anyone else other than themselves and it certainly doesn't make it about sex.

I agree with you there is an animal nature to men liking larger breasts. I simply think society would be better and kinder if men could advance beyond this animal nature.

So men should advance beyond being attracted to me? Society as a whole would be a better place if men stopped being attracted to my body because I have large breasts?

Do you see what you are doing here? You are linking big boobs to "sexual objectification". That somehow, having big boobs is some kind of downfall to women and society. That women shouldn't want to have big boobs because it's all about sex. Do you realize just how much YOUR stance and argument is degrading to women who happen to have big boobs naturally? You make out that there is something wrong with wanting to look like us. That the way we look is somehow wrong and perpetuating "sexual objectification" of other women. YOU are the problem here. Not boob jobs. Not what size a woman's breasts are or what they would like them to be. YOU...with your judgmental opinion of what women should look like and how they should feel about what they look like. Why is it wrong for another woman to want to have what I have or to want to look like me? Why is being built like me contributing to some societal problem or the objectification of women? It's not. It doesn't. Get off the boobies.

 

[trdash]

The difference is that I've supported my opinion. When yours is challenged legitimately, it seems your response is to "agree to disagree" instead of supporting it.

You don't have to respond, but at least think about these questions:

Why do you want a woman with a good personality? Do you want that quality in her for her sake or yours?

Why would someone want big breasts on a woman? Do they want that quality for her sake or their own?

Considering the answers to the questions are the same, why would one be selfish while the other is not?

Mball:

In regard to evidence, one of the most known theories of personality development is social learning theory (this theory is in every introductory textbook in psychology). It posits that personalities are formed primarily through learning from other members of society -- we become as we are shown. My point is, personalities are formed and we have some control over them – this is evidence to marshal behind my view that personalities are more than just genetics – though genetics plays a part.

A personality is formed throughout life and people can change it, we have no ability to change breast size/shape other than surgery. I am sure there will be a day when almost all women will be getting breast implants and other cosmetic surgeries and it will be just like the Stepford Wives movie -- we will have a society of women all filled with plastic, like robots.

In regard to you questions, mball, about why would I want a woman with a good personality or bigger breasts – my answer is that examining what are good values should be extended beyond the individual level and should embrace what is good for society (and in essence, I am not even worried about what is in it for me). Banning smoking in society became policy when there was a good amount of research that smoking harms others. In Spain, I believe, there are now policy regulations that female models have to have a certain body fat index – I think it’s above 18.5%. In the NFL they have a policy to prevent drug use among players. Part of the reason these policy came to be is because fashion models and football players are such powerful role models that their behaviors were emulated. These policies were created for the good of other people because the actions of football players and models (and of course other groups of people) affect others. I work with a good amount of high school athletes who are steroid users and their number one reason for using them is because the pro players do it.

So, such questions of what type of personality are best or should women be allowed to have breast implants should examine the question of what is good for society, along with the individual. I am not suggesting that individual choice be stopped, I am suggesting that examining the social consequences of individual actions should have greater importance.. The APA Task Report that I keep referring too – with over 400 peer review studies to support it – was developed because the mental health of young girls is become so harmful that the APA wanted all psychologists across American to be aware of the devasting effects of the bltant actions fo sexual objectification. And in my mind, breast implants are part of these blatant actions.

So, to answer your questions, it’s not about what is best for “her sake” and “my sake.” Rather, it’s what is best for “her sake” and “societal sake.”

But I think most people think about getting breast implants think of it from a self-centered perceptive and do not even think about how their individual actions – when summed across the nation – creates a social condition or problem. They get breast implants for themselves and are only thinking of themselves. (And to be fair to women, I make the same argument about men and male enhancement and erectile dysfunction medications – good medications when there is a real medical problem, but often abused by men to simply be more sexual – another example of self oriented sexual objectification).

 

[trdash]

[/size][/font]Bullspit.

I love this term!

Draka, because you have made some good points, are respectful, and have taken the time to be honest, I will respond back -- but it might take me a while. I might be able to reply back by the end of today, or it might have to be sometime next week. I ahve some travel obligations -- but I want tou to know I am not sidestepping your reply. I just need time to think this through.

 

[trdash]

Certainly, there is some truth in what you say.
Perhaps we can agree that liberty without compulsion is good.
But for me, a healthy society is one where women folk have the right to become hotter.

Of course, you are a male!!!:drool:

Liberity with compusion is a very wise way of stating it. However, i woudl change the word "hotter" to healthier.

 

[Comicaze247]

There's no "Whatever floats your boat" choice.

 

[Revoltingest]

Of course, you are a male!!!:drool:
Liberity with compusion is a very wise way of stating it. However, i woudl change the word "hotter" to healthier.

That's without compulsion, buster!

 

[Magic Man]

Regardless of one's stance, I kind of think everyone jumped on the bandwagon against the OP.

I don't think there's a bandwagon. I think he's making a claim or two that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Do people truly equate breast size preference with personality/character preference? It's really just as self-centered to prefer being with someone who's honest as it is to prefer large breasts? Come on.

Why isn't it? The argument is that preferring large breasts is selfish because you are only thinking about yourself when preferring that quality. What are you thinking about when you prefer a good sense of humor? Do you prefer that because it pleases you, or because it pleases someone else?

 

[Magic Man]

So, to answer your questions, it’s not about what is best for “her sake” and “my sake.” Rather, it’s what is best for “her sake” and “societal sake.”

Just answer the question: Let's assume a good sense of humor is a personality trait you desire in a mate. It's a common one for people to look for. Why do you want a good sense of humor in the other person? Are you or are you not looking for that quality because it's pleasing to you?

 

[Songbird]

I don't think there's a bandwagon. I think he's making a claim or two that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Which claims?

Why isn't it? The argument is that preferring large breasts is selfish because you are only thinking about yourself when preferring that quality. What are you thinking about when you prefer a good sense of humor? Do you prefer that because it pleases you, or because it pleases someone else?

For one thing, a sense of humor or honesty, or whatever else, is part of a huge category of "traits", while implants is one specific subject. For another, this wide category of traits affects behaviors in a wide variety of ways. I want a range of things in my partner - safety, respect, love, a sense of humor, a work ethic - all of this affects my wellbeing, my future, my kids. Implants don't. How is that not obvious?

The actual issue of implants isn't what I'm arguing. Just that the OP makes some valid points, and I think everyone likes to jump on the majority bandwagon. Human nature. Pick on the guy who's easy to pick on, polarize the issue, make black and white statements, pick a side. Maybe I'm a little crabby today, and I have an anti-establishment tendency.

Heck, if I wanted to, I'd get implants. But I think breasts are over-sexualized, too. In our culture men are success objects and women are sex objects. Discussion to solve or equalize or analyze it is good.

Edit: I do see the point of fixating on one physical attribute as opposed to a myriad other things. I'm just....hm, ranting, I suppose.

 

[Magic Man]

Which claims?

The one I'm focusing on is that preferring big breasts is selfish.

For one thing, a sense of humor or honesty, or whatever else, is part of a huge category of "traits", while implants is one specific subject.

I don't understand this point.

For another, this wide category of traits affects behaviors in a wide variety of ways. I want a range of things in my partner - safety, respect, love, a sense of humor, a work ethic - all of this affects my wellbeing, my future, my kids. Implants don't. How is that not obvious?

It's obvious, but you're still zooming past the major point. I highlighted the key parts. You still want certain qualities in another person because of how they affect you. You want a good sense of humor because it makes you feel good. You want big breasts because they make you feel good.

The actual issue of implants isn't what I'm arguing. Just that the OP makes some valid points, and I think everyone likes to jump on the majority bandwagon. Human nature. Pick on the guy who's easy to pick on, polarize the issue, make black and white statements, pick a side. Maybe I'm a little crabby today, and I have an anti-establishment tendency.

I don't see it that way. I see him having made at least one false claim that he is apparently passionate about. There is an overall point, which is not to put so much emphasis on physical beauty that you create a harmful environment for women. That I think everyone can agree to. My problem is that that's not all he's saying. He's going much farther than that to the point where it goes over the line. My preference for big boobs is not creating a harmful environment for women, and it is not selfish.

 

[trdash]

That's without compulsion, buster!

Whoops, that is what I meant to say.

 

[Revoltingest]

Whoops, that is what I meant to say.

Are you related to Mrs Dash.....you know, the seasoning lady?

 

[ninerbuff]

Which claims?

He exaggerates some of his claims. In previous posts, he stated that the NFL and beer commercials are the worst at sexualizing women and used the APA report as a means of backing for it. I have read the report and nowhere does it say that. It states "male dominated industries" but that could be strip clubs, poker, NASCAR, rodeo riding, etc. where there is much more skin a boobs shown compared to the NFL. When I called him on it, he wouldn't address it at first and when he finally did, he had to recant.

 

[ninerbuff]

Are you related to Mrs Dash.....you know, the seasoning lady?

Do you think she "salts" his sausage?