ninerbuff
godless wonder
Yes, mistress..............may I have another?You obviously aren't aware of the beauty and the wonder of the things that go on in my dungeon. But that's an entirely different conversation....
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Breast implants: For or against
- Thread starter trdash
- Start date
Being that there are so many comments directed toward me, and some have misinterpreted my thinking, I thought it would be best for me to lay out my main points and get us back on track. All of these claims have been supported by peer review research (which some of the respondents in this thread have asked for).
1. The sexual objectification of women is harmful to women and society
2. The very act of cosmetic oriented breast implants/augmentations (and similar cosmetic surgeries) is an act of sexual objectification (again, this is related to cosmetically oriented surgeries, not reconstructive surgeries, which aid in the area of health abnormalities, accident, and illness).
Again, I would strongly recommend people read the entire document from the American Psychological Association report on the Sexualization of Girls. This report not only outlines the harm that women experience, but the harmful impact on society, when women are treated as objects for male desires (e.g., increased violence, sexual harassment in the workplace, men not developing emotional bonds with women). This document compiles over 400 academic studies the large majority from peer review studies. Breast implants are not like coloring ones hair these are very serious surgeries that can result in infections, bleeding, and a general anasesia is needed. Another good book that summaries research in this area is Dr. Durmans book The Lolota Effect it outlines just how destructive body image is on adolescent women and the prominent roles that breasts play in it.
3. Men who prefer women with larger breasts are selfish. According to the on-line version of the Merriam Webster dictionary, selfish is defined as: concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself: seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others. When men (and women) prefer bigger breasts they are thinking of themselves and their pleasures. Men need to learn to be attractive to women for multiple reasons beginning and ending in values and character traits (e.g., value of empathy, the value humor, the value of independence or intelligence) that is where emotional attachment begins and ends. I have no argument when people desire a healthy body (e.g., healthy levels of body fat index) but larger breasts have nothing to with good health the desire for larger breasts always begins and ends with self-serving sex reasons.
4. I am challenging people think beyond their self-serving ways. In regard to selfishness, most of the people advocating breast implants begin and end their reasoning related to themselves. I have said this a couple of times I see the breast implant issue as one that denotes a situation where a group of individuals, each acting in their own individual best interest (e.g., breast implants are a person matter), find that the collective effect of their independently logical actions is actually a societal negative (e.g., reinforcement of a societal norm that real women have larger breasts, women are sex objects, and those women with smaller breasts are less than). If you think beyond self-serving, the end result of breast implants is collective harm to women and society.
5. The last assumption I am making is that people are caring, empathetic and thoughtful of others. Tomato in post 190 reminded me of something important, which is there are people who enjoying harming others. Likewise, there are people who simply cant think beyond themselves and are unconditionally selfish and self-serving. They unconditionally loves themselves and not others.
6. I oppose breast implants not because women should not have the rights to change their bodies. I oppose breast implants because the end result is ALWAYS negative to the individual woman and the consequences to society. If someone wants to choose to harm themselves, they can but its the harmful impact that affects others that I oppose. The APA Task Force report makes it very clear that the cumulative effects of sexual objectification is the changing of everyday social attitudes and expectations, in which women are even more subservient to men than in by-gone days (breast implants are about what men want from women). Is it any wonder that with more and more body technology (e.g., cosmetic surgery, better exercise), that body dissafiscation among women is worse and that disorders such as eating disorders and depression continue to increases as there is a great focus on body image?
1. The sexual objectification of women is harmful to women and society
2. The very act of cosmetic oriented breast implants/augmentations (and similar cosmetic surgeries) is an act of sexual objectification (again, this is related to cosmetically oriented surgeries, not reconstructive surgeries, which aid in the area of health abnormalities, accident, and illness).
Again, I would strongly recommend people read the entire document from the American Psychological Association report on the Sexualization of Girls. This report not only outlines the harm that women experience, but the harmful impact on society, when women are treated as objects for male desires (e.g., increased violence, sexual harassment in the workplace, men not developing emotional bonds with women). This document compiles over 400 academic studies the large majority from peer review studies. Breast implants are not like coloring ones hair these are very serious surgeries that can result in infections, bleeding, and a general anasesia is needed. Another good book that summaries research in this area is Dr. Durmans book The Lolota Effect it outlines just how destructive body image is on adolescent women and the prominent roles that breasts play in it.
3. Men who prefer women with larger breasts are selfish. According to the on-line version of the Merriam Webster dictionary, selfish is defined as: concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself: seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others. When men (and women) prefer bigger breasts they are thinking of themselves and their pleasures. Men need to learn to be attractive to women for multiple reasons beginning and ending in values and character traits (e.g., value of empathy, the value humor, the value of independence or intelligence) that is where emotional attachment begins and ends. I have no argument when people desire a healthy body (e.g., healthy levels of body fat index) but larger breasts have nothing to with good health the desire for larger breasts always begins and ends with self-serving sex reasons.
4. I am challenging people think beyond their self-serving ways. In regard to selfishness, most of the people advocating breast implants begin and end their reasoning related to themselves. I have said this a couple of times I see the breast implant issue as one that denotes a situation where a group of individuals, each acting in their own individual best interest (e.g., breast implants are a person matter), find that the collective effect of their independently logical actions is actually a societal negative (e.g., reinforcement of a societal norm that real women have larger breasts, women are sex objects, and those women with smaller breasts are less than). If you think beyond self-serving, the end result of breast implants is collective harm to women and society.
5. The last assumption I am making is that people are caring, empathetic and thoughtful of others. Tomato in post 190 reminded me of something important, which is there are people who enjoying harming others. Likewise, there are people who simply cant think beyond themselves and are unconditionally selfish and self-serving. They unconditionally loves themselves and not others.
6. I oppose breast implants not because women should not have the rights to change their bodies. I oppose breast implants because the end result is ALWAYS negative to the individual woman and the consequences to society. If someone wants to choose to harm themselves, they can but its the harmful impact that affects others that I oppose. The APA Task Force report makes it very clear that the cumulative effects of sexual objectification is the changing of everyday social attitudes and expectations, in which women are even more subservient to men than in by-gone days (breast implants are about what men want from women). Is it any wonder that with more and more body technology (e.g., cosmetic surgery, better exercise), that body dissafiscation among women is worse and that disorders such as eating disorders and depression continue to increases as there is a great focus on body image?
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
Why did you start a thread if you're not going to listen to anyone? Wouldn't this be better as a blog post?
You have been told repeatedly that this is just plain incorrect. It's been explained in detail. Instead of responding to those explanations, now you're just making the same claim over again.
So, I'll just repeat. Preferring large breasts is not selfish.
Mball:
Please explain to me how the preference does not connect to the definition of being selfish. Selfish is defined as: concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself: seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others.
Maybe I am not interpreting your past posts correctly, but they seem to be based on the proposition that people cant help what they are attracted to. Although not boundless, I think people can really change what they are attracted too. Because there are very real biological and genetically factors, this can be extremely difficult and is not boundless but it can be done. So, we might have an honest disagreement regarding if we are helpless to preferences or if we change them, at least somewhat. I think we have some degree of control over preferences. As a therapist, I have helped some people let go of past value-preferences and learn to develop new ones. Ive done this myself I really did think at one time larger breasts and penises were more desirable but I no longer believe this because I have learned that such thinking is ugly and harmful to others.
Further, I also think the view that this is the way I am can be very dangerous because it thwarts personal responsibility and social responsibility. With this said, however, I want to make it perfectly clear that such changes can be extremely difficult. I have worked with people who dispositional have depression and it is extremely difficult in some cases to change due to genetic reasons (and that is where medication can be a very good thing).
Second, I think as people we need to balance care for self and care for other. When you are attached to personality traits these traits can be a public good or directed toward the care of others. For example, a personality of good humor is good for many people in general laughter is healthy. So, when we develop the character or value of humor, it can really help others. But the desire of cosmetically enhanced larger breasts does not help others the desire or attraction to them is concern exclusively with oneself. For those men who like larger breasts, they like them for their own self-serving reasons.
So again, please explain to me how the attraction to larger breasts is related to something beyond concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself?
Is it OK when it actuall harms others beyond the person? Think more related to the social consequences rather than the individual aspects of the person getting surgery.
Rakhel
Well-Known Member
I am completely lost.
This idea that a woman choosing to have large breasts is harming someone else totally escapes me. Unless she is using them to purposely suffocate the person she is with, I don't get it.
Or she turns around too fast and knocks someone up side the head and gives them a concussion, which is utterly impossible.
This idea that a woman choosing to have large breasts is harming someone else totally escapes me. Unless she is using them to purposely suffocate the person she is with, I don't get it.
Or she turns around too fast and knocks someone up side the head and gives them a concussion, which is utterly impossible.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
I highlighted the important part. As I've tried again and again (and you've pretty much ignored), would you say preferring long legs, blue eyes or a good sense of humor selfish? If so, then you can consider preferring large breasts selfish, but it's still not an accurate word for those things. If not, then you can't consider preferring large breasts selfish.
Again, every preference we have regarding a potential partner is "selfish" by your standards. This one is no more so than any other.
Personally, I like my wife's. I've had women with particularly large sex pillows, and women who had practically a pincushion. I don't see how any woman's choice to augment what she has harms anyone. The only way I see it harming her: complications from surgery. Then again, I don't encourage a woman to run out and get the surgery. A woman should be happy with herself.
Mball:
Preferences related to body attributes be them long legs, eye color, or bigger breasts is selfish. People cant change growth plates, eye color, or breast size unless there is surgery. Men like bigger breasts for self-serving reasons it is selfishness -- it is all focused on one own advantage.
However, changing attitudes or values can occur and, more important, has a real societal consequences. Kinder people make the world kinder. But what societal good comes from women with fake boobs? Think beyond yourself and think of the public good.
Do you think the world would be a better place if we were all more accepting of how peoples bodies are related to normative health? Is the world a better place when people develop a beauty ethic from what is inside a person rather than the outside? What good comes from more and more men desiring women with larger breasts?
Preferences related to body attributes be them long legs, eye color, or bigger breasts is selfish. People cant change growth plates, eye color, or breast size unless there is surgery. Men like bigger breasts for self-serving reasons it is selfishness -- it is all focused on one own advantage.
However, changing attitudes or values can occur and, more important, has a real societal consequences. Kinder people make the world kinder. But what societal good comes from women with fake boobs? Think beyond yourself and think of the public good.
Do you think the world would be a better place if we were all more accepting of how peoples bodies are related to normative health? Is the world a better place when people develop a beauty ethic from what is inside a person rather than the outside? What good comes from more and more men desiring women with larger breasts?
It escapes you because your answer begins and ends with youself. If you really want to know, go back and read some of my past posts.
What the hell? Everyone has physical preferences in a mate. Everyone. If that's selfish, so be it. People are selfish. There is no altruism. Live with that reality and if you take a good, hard, look, you'll see that you are guilty of that which you accuse others.
Trdash,
I do have a question for you, though. I have a daughter who is contemplating breast reduction. Is that selfish on her part? If not, why not?
I do have a question for you, though. I have a daughter who is contemplating breast reduction. Is that selfish on her part? If not, why not?
Dezzie
Well-Known Member
If he isn't listening to you or anyone else, than I guess no one else is hearing him out either. Everyone has their own opinions on different situations. He doesn't have to agree with you or anyone else. He's just providing others with his own point of view. :areyoucra I actually kind of agree with a few of the points he has made.... but that's just my own opinion.
Dezzie
Well-Known Member
What is wrong with getting a breast reduction? That is something completely different. Having larger breasts causes pain on the back. Mine aren't that big, but they hurt my back so much. Getting a breat augmentation is adding silicone to your chest. They are two seperate things.
Actually, breast augmentation is not necessarily adding silicone to the chest. This guy is arguing that any surgical change to one's looks, regardless of motivation, is selfish. I want to see him blatantly say that a breast reduction for medical reasons is selfish or explain the contradiction in his thought process.
Rakhel
Well-Known Member
My understanding of trdash's past posts is that any form of cosmetic surgery is being not only selfish but may lead to addiction and quite possibly harmful to herself and others (future children maybe?)
Dezzie
Well-Known Member
People change their looks for the sole purpose of wanting to look "better" in today's society. Women wear makeup because they feel it makes them look prettier. Women get boob jobs because they think their chest will look better. Yes, some people have surgeries for medical purposes and that is fine but... come on... MOST people have corrective surgery to do just that... correct what they don't like. If only this society wasn't so darn picky about what was beautiful! No one would be self-conscious and no one would be judging other people. Society is the problem here. The media feeds the flame.
ninerbuff
godless wonder
So is religion that denounces people who disagree with it.
My cousin had a large mole removed from her nose that had hair growing out of it. It didn't cause her illness, nor health issues, yet the removal of it saved her from all the teasing and embarassing stares. I don't see this as an act of sexual objectification, but one of just wanting not to have a mole on her face that people were drawn too to make fun of.
The problem here is you're speaking of males as a whole, when personalities and character differ from male to male. Yes you have the macho male who is nothing but a chauvanist, but then you have males that are opposite and are nothing but good caring men.
Another blanket statement. One that you try to impose on males who just have a preference for larger breasts. If you look at any preference that anyone has, it affects others.
Quit this psycho babble technique. It doesn't work.No you're not challenging, you're a christian trying to impose what you believe is moral according to the way you take your faith.
You don't answer questions directed at you and you make up BS (like the one debunked about the NFL) to try re enforce your belief.
Why not try actual debating.
Lol, he was being sarcastic.
You got all that from 4 words...........:biglaugh:Good oppose it then. And others will have their opinions on why it's good for them.
And women more subserviant to men then in days or yore? That's not stated in the APA report. You're making **** up again.
Dezzie
Well-Known Member
There have been plenty of cases where these things have become addictive. Changing yourself only makes the world more apt to accepting it. This entire planet is on the verge of plastic. Everywhere I go, I see another female with a fake weave, fake nails, makeup, fake boobs, tight clothes... some people who don't have these things dislike themselves and don't think they are beautiful. The media is the problem here.
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