Brexit

[lewisnotmiller]

There are relatively welthy and poor everywhere. I was merely pointing out how people might become oblivious to what they have to the extent they might think of themselves as having nothing to lose.

That, I agree with. Anyone voting has something worth losing, by definition.

 

[RestlessSoul]

A wiser man might point out that there was a lot indeed to lose. There is still.

Perhaps, but life is all about perceptions.

For the record, I think Brexit was a tragic mistake, people were misled, and the only people to gain out of it will be the international super rich who can continue to exploit tax havens in territories like Gibraltar and the British Virgin Islands. The same super rich, coincidentally, that own most of the UK Newspapers which championed the Brexit agenda.

Having said all that, that the political classes refuse to listen to the people who voted Leave, is how we got into this mess in the first place. And believe me, the UK is in a mess (though we're clearly not alone in that).

 

[LuisDantas]

It's unfortunate, but Monty Python's humour - and its cast - haven't aged well in a lot of ways (and not just because of this issue).

The claim that the community "did not feel very English" anymore is particularly noteworthy for me.

Frame it as you may, ultimately it is just a statement of inability to deal with change.

 

[Stevicus]

But that's the joke: That didn't happen.
Instead they believed their Government that there are unelected Bureaucrats in Brussels who are taking away their rights and rule over them.
And that literally had nothing to do with reality.

What was it that didn't happen?

In times and places where the political leadership is neglectful or apathetic of the needs of the lower classes, there generally reaches a certain point where they'll believe just about anything, if they think there's someone or something that will pull them out of the morass that they're in.

The key thing is for the existing leadership to make sure that things aren't neglected for so long that it doesn't get out of hand. If they screw the pooch and mismanage the economy to the point where there's widespread suffering, they can't really blame anyone but themselves, now can they?

 

[England my lionheart]

All those problems aside, I think a fair chunk of people who voted "no" to independence in the last referendum did so because they wanted to stay in the EU and saw staying in the UK as the best way to achieve that. These people have lost their reason to vote against independence, regardless of how difficult Scottish entry to the EU would be.

Its possible I guess,maybe we’ll find out one day.

 

[LuisDantas]

Well, that's the whole point. If the community as a whole is suffering, then that's sufficient cause to rethink the policies which caused it and the theoretical assumptions which brought about such policies in the first place.

Absolutely.

Which is why Brexit is so nonsensical from the get-go.

 

[Stevicus]

Absolutely.

Which is why Brexit is so nonsensical from the get-go.

That may be so, but if there had not been such long-term damage from economic mismanagement and short-sighted irresponsibility, it wouldn't have come to that.

 

[LuisDantas]

Perhaps, but life is all about perceptions.

For the record, I think Brexit was a tragic mistake, people were misled, and the only people to gain out of it will be the international super rich who can continue to exploit tax havens in territories like Gibraltar and the British Virgin Islands. The same super rich, coincidentally, that own most of the UK Newspapers which championed the Brexit agenda.

Agreed.

Having said all that, that the political classes refuse to listen to the people who voted Leave, is how we got into this mess in the first place. And believe me, the UK is in a mess (though we're clearly not alone in that).

I used to think that way. Until the results of the 2019 UK General Election came to light.

Giving Boris Johnson's Tories a 80 seats majority at that point in time was very inconsequential indeed. Particularly given his abusive and transparent maneuver of dissolving the Parliament in October. By that point it was plenty clear that he was fond of bending rules if not cheating outright.

If Leavers did not care about that enough to refuse him the legitimacy given by the election results, I don't think they have much basis for complaining now.

 

[Stevicus]

There are relatively welthy and poor everywhere. I was merely pointing out how people might become oblivious to what they have to the extent they might think of themselves as having nothing to lose.

In some cases, they might be looking at what they had and compare it to what they have now, relatively speaking.

 

[Rival]

Giving Boris Johnson's Tories a 80 seats majority at that point in time was very inconsequential indeed. Particularly given his abusive and transparent maneuver of dissolving the Parliament in October. By that point it was plenty clear that he was fond of bending rules if not cheating outright.

If Leavers did not care about that enough to refuse him the legitimacy given by the election results, I don't think they have much basis for complaining now.

We don't vote directly for the PM though, which is where this becomes sticky.

We vote for our local MP and vote based on what he or she believes or has done. Our local MP is a Tory but he's done good things, or rather attempted to, where we live. That Tory MPs disagree with each other is nothing new. Some standing Tory MPs during 2019 would have been Remainers, for instance. So the understanding is that one is voting for one's local MP rather than the Party leader. No-one outside BoJo's constituency voted directly for Boris Johnson, they voted for members of his Party. So there's a huge toss up between 'My local Tory MP is alright' and 'but his Party leader sucks.' So if your local Labour MP was a Leaver and your local Tory MP a Remainer, the Labour MP would likely have won.

 

[RestlessSoul]

It is intriguing how easily people can become blinded by their own privileges, isn't it?
As someone that doesn't live in a first world country let me tell you I was smirking by the end of your post.

Smirking is never a good look. I have a simple definition of economic exclusion in a first world country. It's the same metric Charles Dickens used, when London was the richest city in the world and home to some of the worst slums; if your income is not enough to cover your basic outgoings, and you have to go into unsustainable personal debt (or turn to crime) to provide yourself and your family with the basic needs of food and shelter, you have nothing to lose (but your chains).

 

[Koldo]

In some cases, they might be looking at what they had and compare it to what they have now, relatively speaking.

I bet the french nobility did the same after the french revolution.

 

[Koldo]

Smirking is never a good look. I have a simple definition of economic exclusion in a first world country. It's the same metric Charles Dickens used, when London was the richest city in the world and home to some of the worst slums; if your income is not enough to cover your basic outgoings, and you have to go into unsustainable personal debt (or turn to crime) to provide yourself and your family with the basic needs of food and shelter, you have nothing to lose (but your chains).

I sincerely don't buy that it was that bad just before Brexit, at least not in a widespread scale.

 

[Flankerl]

What was it that didn't happen?

In times and places where the political leadership is neglectful or apathetic of the needs of the lower classes, there generally reaches a certain point where they'll believe just about anything, if they think there's someone or something that will pull them out of the morass that they're in.

The key thing is for the existing leadership to make sure that things aren't neglected for so long that it doesn't get out of hand. If they screw the pooch and mismanage the economy to the point where there's widespread suffering, they can't really blame anyone but themselves, now can they?

You promulgated the idea that the people effectively rose up against the Government and used this referendum as a protest.
But the EU wasn't their government.
The EU invested into the neglected British regions while the British Government did not.

You fail to see the importance of rampant propaganda in the English media regarding the EU.

 

[Stevicus]

I bet the french nobility did the same after the french revolution.

Well, yeah, prior to the French Revolution, the nobility had heads.

In the present context, it's not the French Revolution but the Reagan Revolution, which was a completely different kettle of fish.

 

[Stevicus]

You promulgated the idea that the people effectively rose up against the Government and used this referendum as a protest.
But the EU wasn't their government.
The EU invested into the neglected British regions while the British Government did not.

You fail to see the importance of rampant propaganda in the English media regarding the EU.

I can see that propaganda can influence people, but it doesn't happen in a vacuum. After all, there's still freedom of the press and freedom of expression. It's an open and free marketplace of ideas, and if people aren't buying your ideas, what are you going to do? Complain that the competition are better salesmen than you?

 

[Flankerl]

If you as an American can't see how fake news can erode a country then that's that.

Perhaps you need another civil war to figure that out.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I sincerely don't buy that it was that bad just before Brexit, at least not in a widespread scale.

Well I can assure you that since 2008, the only thing standing between many British people and penury, has been cheap credit; and that's about to disappear just as prices surge. Work - any work - used to be a route out of poverty for anyone in the UK, but that has not been the case for some time now, exacerbated by the fact that well paid (but often dirty, dangerous and life shortening) jobs in heavy industry have been replaced by low paid service sector jobs which often don't cover the basic cost of living.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Well, yeah, prior to the French Revolution, the nobility had heads.

In the present context, it's not the French Revolution but the Reagan Revolution, which was a completely different kettle of fish.

And shifted the balance of power away from the workers and towards the oligarchs, which is exactly what happened with Thatcher's revolution here in the UK. And now we reap the whirlwind...

 

[Koldo]

Well I can assure you that since 2008, the only thing standing between many British people and penury, has been cheap credit; and that's about to disappear just as prices surge. Work - any work - used to be a route out of poverty for anyone in the UK, but that has not been the case for some time now, exacerbated by the fact that well paid (but often dirty, dangerous and life shortening) jobs in heavy industry have been replaced by low paid service sector jobs which often don't cover the basic cost of living.

Many as in how many? What exactly do you mean by 'penury', as in how are you measuring that?