Buddhist Have a Soul

[Rick O'Shez]

The lokas are related both to the jhanas and to the ayatanas, in my personal experience. Upon achievement of the first jhana, the "eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations" disappears. From the first through fourth jhana, only the intellect (mano) and ideas/mental phenomena/thoughts (dhammas) remain. In the fifth jhana the mano disappears, leaving only dhammas.

Instead of coming up with idiosnycratic interpretations like this, I would recommend that you look at what the Sabba Sutta actually SAYS, and consider what the purpose of this sutta is.

 

[George-ananda]

the lokas are planes of existence.

What do you see as existing on these other planes of existence?

I am seeing a bridge between you and @wizanda

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It isn't a question of not liking; it contradicts what Buddha has said elsewhere in multiple places... And sounds like a child has wrote it.

So then, give me some references to suttas which contradict what the Sabba Sutta says.

As for sounding "like a child has wrote it", have you heard of the psychological mechanism of projection?
For somebody who is supposed to be awakened you do an awful lot of childish point scoring.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Mano, the intellect/consciousness/mental states exists in the rupa-loka, which corresponds to the first through fourth jhanas.

Sutta reference please.

 

[buddhist]

Instead of coming up with idiosnycratic interpretations like this, I would recommend that you look at what the Sabba Sutta actually SAYS, and consider what the purpose of this sutta is.

I would instead recommend that you try out the jhanas yourself, and know through personal experience, rather than rely solely on your idiosyncratic interpretation of a sutta.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I would instead recommend that you try out the jhanas yourself, and know through personal experience, rather than rely solely on your idiosyncratic interpretation of a sutta.

I have jhana experience, but that is irrelevant to a discussion about the Sabba Sutta, as are the realms.

It is crystal clear in it's meaning, it says what it says straightforwardly, and your idiosyncratic "additions" are irrelevant and unnecessary.

Here it is again:

"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."
"As you say, lord," the monks responded.
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html

Have you worked out what it's purpose is yet?

 

[buddhist]

Sutta reference please.

A description of the fifth jhana (first arupa-jhana) in the Anupada Sutta (MN 111) states: "with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of space. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of the infinitude of space — the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another."

The intellect - the mind which measures and compares, as evidenced the disappearance of perceptions of diversity - is "ferreted out".

 

[buddhist]

I have jhana experience, but that is irrelevant to a discussion about the Sabba Sutta, as are the realms.

It is crystal clear in it's meaning, it says what it says straightforwardly, and your idiosyncratic "additions" are irrelevant and unnecessary.

Here it is again:

"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."
"As you say, lord," the monks responded.
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html

Have you worked out what it's purpose is yet?

Yes, and I disagree with your idiosyncratic interpretation.

 

[wizanda]

So then, give me some references to suttas which contradict what the Sabba Sutta says.

the lokas are planes of existence and nothing to do with the sense bases.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html

Here you've shown how the contradictions in the Sabba Sutra don't fit....

The highest dimensions allow the rest to exist, so we can't stop at 'all', when it only specifies the human mind, if we are to say, 'all', then this must encompass all the Lokas.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

A description of the fifth jhana (first arupa-jhana) in the Anupada Sutta (MN 111) states: "with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of space. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of the infinitude of space — the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another."
The intellect - the mind which measures and compares, as evidenced the disappearance of perceptions of diversity - is "ferreted out".

Rupa-loka is not mentioned here.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Here you've shown how the contradictions in the Sabba Sutra don't fit....

What contradictions? What are you on about?

 

[buddhist]

Rupa-loka is not mentioned here.

Yes it is, in a part of the sutta right before I started quoting: "with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of space. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of the infinitude of space — the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another."

Form is characteristic of the kama-loka and rupa-loka, both consisting of grosser or finer physical forms.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Yes, and I disagree with your idiosyncratic interpretation.

I am taking the Sabba Sutta at face value, reading what it says straightforwardly, there is no interpretation at all. You are the one trying to add in a load of stuff which isn't there.

So what do you think it's purpose is?

 

[wizanda]

What contradictions? What are you on about?

Read this poem, you reply far too quick to pay proper attention.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Yes it is, in a part of the sutta right before I started quoting: "with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of space. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of the infinitude of space — the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another."
Form is characteristic of the kama-loka and rupa-loka, both consisting of grosser or finer physical forms.

"PERCEPTIONS of physical forms". These are meditative states, and you are muddling things up again. But this has nothing whatsoever to do with the Sabba Sutta, you are just making stuff up.

 

[buddhist]

I am taking the Sabba Sutta at face value, reading what it says straightforwardly, there is no interpretation at all. You are the one trying to add in a load of stuff which isn't there.

So what do you think it's purpose is?

"Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, sāriputto sabbaso rūpasaññānaṃ samatikkamā paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā nānattasaññānaṃ amanasikārā ...." MN 111

SN 35.23 is both a description of the "All" and its constituent parts, an entire cosmology encapsulated in a short statement, describing the range of the All, of All of samara, consisting of the kama, rupa, and arupa lokas.

 

[buddhist]

"PERCEPTIONS of physical forms". These are meditative states, and you are muddling things up again. But this has nothing whatsoever to do with the Sabba Sutta, you are just making stuff up.

Read it in the Pali, and it's clear: "Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, sāriputto sabbaso rūpasaññānaṃ samatikkamā paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā nānattasaññānaṃ amanasikārā ...." MN 111

In achieving the fifth jhana, Ven. Sariputta transcended all of the rupa-loka.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Read it in the Pali, and it's clear: "Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, sāriputto sabbaso rūpasaññānaṃ samatikkamā paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā nānattasaññānaṃ amanasikārā ...." MN 111
In achieving the fifth jhana, Ven. Sariputta transcended all of the rupa-loka.

Rupa-jhanas are refined meditative states, the meditator isn't magically transported into another realm.
As you would know if you had experienced them.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

SN 35.23 is both a description of the "All" and its constituent parts, an entire cosmology encapsulated in a short statement, describing the range of the All, of All of samara, consisting of the kama, rupa, and arupa lokas.

No, it really isn't, you are just making stuff up, adding in a load of stuff which just isn't there, or intended to be there. "The All" is the sense bases and objects, it really couldn't be clearer. Why can't you accept what it actually SAYS? Why the stubborn determination to add in stuff which isn't there?

So what do think the purpose of this sutta is?

 

[buddhist]

Rupa-jhanas are refined meditative states, the meditator isn't magically transported into another realm.

Nope. As I understand the Buddha, the early suttas, and my personal experiences, the higher realities, realms, and states exist within the mind. We do not reach outwards to reach the higher realms; we go inwards. It is the grosser, lower realities which exist "outside".