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Buddhist Have a Soul

Kartari

Active Member
Hi George-ananda,

What do you see other major Buddhist tradition's understanding of 'rebirth' to be? It appears to me it is really similar to reincarnation but vaguer on just what it is that 'rebirths'. In my beliefs what rebirths is a temporary subtle body that exists for many lifetimes until Nirvana/Moksha/Liberation. This I believe is neither confirmed nor denied exactly by the larger Buddhist schools which imply something continues (without providing details).

Whereas reincarnation posits a permanent or fixed essence or soul of some kind which transmigrates from lifetime to lifetime, rebirth in Buddhism posits that there is no permanent or fixed essence or soul. Rather, what persists from lifetime to lifetime are the effects of karma. As this BDEA page on Rebirth puts it:

"...I would like to distinguish rebirth from transmigration. You may have noticed that in Buddhism, we consistently speak of rebirth and not transmigration. This is because in Buddhism we do not believe in an abiding entity, in a substance that trans-migrates. We do not believe in a self that is reborn. This is why when we explain rebirth, we make use of examples which do not require the transmigration of an essence or a substance. For example, when a sprout is born from a seed, there is no substance that transmigrates. The seed and the sprout are not identical. Similarly, when we light one candle from another candle, no substance travels from one to the other, and yet the first is the cause of the second. When one billiard ball strikes another, there is a continuity, the energy and direction of the first ball is imparted to the second. It is the cause of the second billiard ball moving in a particular direction and at a particular speed. When we step twice into a river, it is not the same river and yet there is continuity, the continuity of cause and effect. So there is rebirth, but not transmigration. There is moral responsibility, but not an independent, permanent self. There is the continuity of cause and effect, but not permanence..."

My original involvement in this thread was to point out that the concept of 'rebirth' in the major schools/sects of Buddhism conflict with the materialist concept of death (annihilation). On this forum it seems the predominant belief of the Buddhists is really Buddhism+Materialism.

Though I am a skeptical person myself, I agree with you. Rebirth may not posit a soul exactly, but Buddhism more broadly has always included certain supernatural beliefs. Buddhism has long been a lot more religious an umbrella of traditions than some modern Buddhists in the west. While this is not the case for all westerners (depends on which sect), some of the earliest European translators and proponents of Buddhism from the 19th century gave the religion a lasting and more secular spin, in fact. Colonel Olcott for instance, who was the son of a Protestant minister and one of the founders of the Theosophical Society, was instrumental in bringing more visibility to Buddhism to the west. But in trying to make the religion less offensive to the Christian orthodoxy, he regarded Buddhism's "superstitious" elements as inauthentic, emphasizing its self-reliant and more pragmatic practices. This has certainly shaped modern Buddhism in the west. But then again, a study of the history of Buddhism shows us a history of adaptability to the local cultures it takes root in. Which is probably apparent in the study of all religions of the world, though Buddhism has shown particular flexibility.
 
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George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Whereas reincarnation posits a permanent or fixed essence or soul of some kind which transmigrates from lifetime to lifetime, rebirth in Buddhism posits that there is no permanent or fixed essence or soul.
Hmmm...In my school of thought (advaita) the soul is not permanent either and continually changes/advances for many lifetimes until Moksha/Nirvana/Liberation.
Rather, what persists from lifetime to lifetime are the effects of karma. As this BDEA page on Rebirth puts it:

"...I would like to distinguish rebirth from transmigration. You may have noticed that in Buddhism, we consistently speak of rebirth and not transmigration. This is because in Buddhism we do not believe in an abiding entity, in a substance that trans-migrates. We do not believe in a self that is reborn. This is why when we explain rebirth, we make use of examples which do not require the transmigration of an essence or a substance. For example, when a sprout is born from a seed, there is no substance that transmigrates. The seed and the sprout are not identical. Similarly, when we light one candle from another candle, no substance travels from one to the other, and yet the first is the cause of the second. When one billiard ball strikes another, there is a continuity, the energy and direction of the first ball is imparted to the second. It is the cause of the second billiard ball moving in a particular direction and at a particular speed. When we step twice into a river, it is not the same river and yet there is continuity, the continuity of cause and effect. So there is rebirth, but not transmigration. There is moral responsibility, but not an independent, permanent self. There is the continuity of cause and effect, but not permanence..."
It is not clear from this if there is what is typically called an afterlife as in a continuation of the personality after death as is claimed by Near Death Experiencers. What are your thoughts on this issue?
 

Kartari

Active Member
Hey George,

Hmmm...In my school of thought (advaita) the soul is not permanent either and continually changes/advances for many lifetimes until Moksha/Nirvana/Liberation.

Interesting. I am not sure if that is an independent development or not, as I've not studied Hinduism enough to make a definitive statement on the matter. But I understand that Hinduism, being the adaptable plethora of religious paths it is, absorbed elements of Buddhism into its umbrella in response to it's emergence in northern India. I have read that the Bhagavad Gita in part attempts to reconcile Buddhism with Hinduism.

It is not clear from this if there is what is typically called an afterlife as in a continuation of the personality after death as is claimed by Near Death Experiencers. What are your thoughts on this issue?

The core teachings of Buddhism would seem to imply there is no afterlife as a continuation of a entity or self. Of course, the Buddha refused to speculate on metaphysical matters as well, leaving the door open to individual interpretation as long as one does not dwell on and become attached to such matters. That said, people will be people, and wherever Buddhism migrated to and culturally integrated into, various foreign beliefs ended up melding into the broader Buddhist religions. In China for instance, we find Buddhist monks who share teachings with Daoist priests and who officiate Confucian rituals to honor deified ancestors. Like Hinduism, Buddhism was quite adaptable to the beliefs and traditions of wherever it found itself.

Personally, while I find the idea of continuation after death appealing, I am skeptical of NDE's. I default to naturalistic explanations (i.e. mental phenomena occurring in an oxygen-deprived brain) until the day someone who has had an NDE can independently verify their experience such that it defies naturalistic explanations.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Hey George,



Interesting. I am not sure if that is an independent development or not, as I've not studied Hinduism enough to make a definitive statement on the matter. But I understand that Hinduism, being the adaptable plethora of religious paths it is, absorbed elements of Buddhism into its umbrella in response to it's emergence in northern India. I have read that the Bhagavad Gita in part attempts to reconcile Buddhism with Hinduism.



The core teachings of Buddhism would seem to imply there is no afterlife as a continuation of a entity or self. Of course, the Buddha refused to speculate on metaphysical matters as well, leaving the door open to individual interpretation as long as one does not dwell on and become attached to such matters. That said, people will be people, and wherever Buddhism migrated to and culturally integrated into, various foreign beliefs ended up melding into the broader Buddhist religions. In China for instance, we find Buddhist monks who share teachings with Daoist priests and who officiate Confucian rituals to honor deified ancestors. Like Hinduism, Buddhism was quite adaptable to the beliefs and traditions of wherever it found itself.

Personally, while I find the idea of continuation after death appealing, I am skeptical of NDE's. I default to naturalistic explanations (i.e. mental phenomena occurring in an oxygen-deprived brain) until the day someone who has had an NDE can independently verify their experience such that it defies naturalistic explanations.
Well veridical NDEs (where people including the blind) report real world events that they could not have learned through normal channels is pretty convincing to me. This along with multiple other areas of paranormal phenomena has convinced me beyond reasonable doubt of the inadequacy of the materialist view of consciousness. However, I wonder about and expect you can explain what motivates a person with no beliefs in the continuation of consciousness to care about the details of Buddhism. I can understand living a pleasant a life as possible and being nice to others, but I don't see how that can motivate me to be concerned about studying and practicing Buddhism. {It is my opinion that individual consciousness continues until Nirvana is reached and individual spiritual progress is progressive and not annihilated at death.)
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
I see samsara as encompassing everything there is, in every possible permutation of existence, the infinite multiverse of the "All". Its limit ends at the eighth ayatana/"jhana" (the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception).

"The All" is the sense-bases and objects. Anything else is beyond range, including speculation about mutliverses and suchlike. As an "early Buddhist" you should know this.

"The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
The core teachings of Buddhism would seem to imply there is no afterlife as a continuation of a entity or self.

That's right, the Buddhist view of rebirth is based on dependent arising, not on a soul which transmigrates, hence the Buddha's advice to Sati in MN38.

That doesn't stop self-proclaimed "prophets" from twisting and warping Buddhist teachings in an attempt to make them fit their strange DIY religions.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
The reason i call it Øneness (zero-ness), is that its qualities match what Buddha refers to as Nirvana. :innocent:

In Theravada Nibbana is described as an awakening based on the cessation of craving, aversion and delusion, and in Mahayana Nirvana is "reached" following insight into the emptiness of the aggregates ( see the Heart Sutra ).

As for "Oneness", it is dismissed by the Buddha as another example of unproductive speculation, here for example in SN 12.48, the Lokayatika Sutta. As usual the Buddha cuts through the metaphysical speculation by returning to the theme of dependent origination, ie dependent arising and condtionality:

"Now, then, Master Gotama, does everything exist?
'Everything exists' is the senior form of cosmology, brahman.
Then, Master Gotama, does everything not exist?
'Everything does not exist' is the second form of cosmology, brahman.
Then is everything a Oneness?
'Everything is a Oneness' is the third form of cosmology, brahman.
Then is everything a Manyness?
'Everything is a Manyness' is the fourth form of cosmology, brahman.
Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle...[herein follows the formula for dependent origination]"

No doubt you will now do some more quote-mining to try and prove me wrong, such is your egocentric need to demonstrate that all the world's religions must support your strange DIY religion.
It wouldn't be so bad if you were genuinely interested in understanding what Buddhism teaches, but it is clear you are not, your only concern is self-promotion and preaching.
 
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wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
"The Blessed One said, "What is the All?
That reply sounds nothing like the Lankavatara Sutra; Buddha speaks from a deep metaphysical understanding, that doesn't.
that all the world's religions fit into your strange DIY religion.
That is totally upside down; I don't really care if they don't.... I'm stating what exists, and seeing if can explain it for others, using what has been stated.
As for "Oneness", it is dismissed by the Buddha as another example of unproductive speculation
You clearly don't have a clue what we are referring to; which is why you didn't reply to the verse about Oneness within the Lankavatara Sutra...

Personally have created the term Øneness (Zero-ness), which is the other side of Oneness... Would explain it again; yet you're not interested in understanding. :innocent:
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
So basically you are basing your "understanding" of Buddhism on some odd quotes from the Lankavatara Sutra, and dismissing out of hand what all the other Buddhists texts say, particularly the ones that contradict your silly DIY religion.

How ridiculous. Egocentric delusions of grandeur.
 
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wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
dismissing out of hand what all the other Buddhists texts say,
[GALLERY=media, 7635][/GALLERY]
I've just read the full Lokayatika Sutra, which doesn't dismiss Oneness, it creates opposites of existing, none existing, and removes both....

Unfortunately it appears as in many religions, you're trying to justify a presupposition to the text, rather than let text speak for its self. :innocent:
Egocentric delusions of grandeur.
Try not to just be a typical troll, and more people might discuss with you. ;)

 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
In Sanskrit the word atman mean self, soul and life, thus Buddha rejected the idea of us all having a self, and helped created an anatman belief...
Which means no self, yet unfortunately it doesn't also mean no life or soul, which is what has happened in the understanding.

This is just plain wrong. In the suttas both self-view and soul are negated. Not that you will listen, since it doesn't fit in with your strange DIY religion.
It is clear your only interest is in quote-mining stuff which you think supports your pronouncements.
 
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Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
've just read the full Lokayatika Sutra, which doesn't dismiss Oneness, it creates opposites of existing, none existing, and removes both....
Try not to just be a typical troll, and more people might discuss with you. ;)

It is DEPENDENT ORIGINATION which goes "beyond" ideas of existence and non-existence, oneness and manyness. Dependent origination is a specific application of dependent arising or conditionality, this is the central theme in Buddhist teaching, something you have clearly not understood.

As for trolling, I am not the one continually preaching a DIY religion on a discussion board. Perhaps in your mind anyone who challenges your grandiose pronouncements must be a troll, but again that just demonstrates the extent of your arrogance.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
In the suttas both self and soul are negated.
If you go through many Sutras, you can find that the word Heart can be exchanged for a reference to the soul, to remove the concepts of Atman Vs Anatman....

As both miss the point by being some form of identification; which is why Santana (continual melody) is a better understanding. :)
Tathagatahood is to go beyond reality, there is a realm beyond the dimensions of Maya - Øneness; thus before anything was formed, consciousness existed....

It is sitting before a lake of infinite possibilities, and having never chucked the pebble into the water, to create the ripples of time.

This realm we're within isn't real, all this conjecture is based on only a material existence, and never having experienced this. :innocent:
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
If you go through many Sutras, you can find that the word Heart can be exchanged for a reference to the soul, to remove the concepts of Atman Vs Anatman....

Sounds like red-herring nonsense to me, but perhaps you can produce some examples. In Buddhism heart and mind are usually synonymous.
 
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wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
In Buddhism heart and mind are usually synonymous.
Everything stems from the universal consciousness; so it is possible to assume that all physical hearts are only manifestations of the whole.... Yet that isn't what Buddha means from the overall contexts applied to the heart:
Lankavatara Sutra said:
There is no cessation of Divine Mind which, in itself, is the abode of Reality and the Womb of Truth.
Which clearly indicates that the divine/universal mind/consciousness is the source of all reality; we're just not calling it Brahman/God as they have their own additional connotations, which is why i use the term CPU.
Lankavatara Sutra said:
Fifth, in a realm still higher, which is the abode of the Bodhisattva stages, and is analogous to the mind-world, where the interests of heart transcend those of the mind, it appears as the principle of compassion and self-giving.
So here the soul (heart) is in a higher state than that of the mind; so they're not synonymous.
Lankavatara Sutra said:
Mahamati: Pray tell us, Blessed One, how the Bodhisattvas are given assurance of Nirvana? And what is the Nirvana of the Bodhisattvas?

The Blessed One replied: Mahamati: this assurance is not an assurance of numbers nor logic; it is not the mind that is to be assured but the heart. The Bodhisattva’s assurance comes with the unfolding insight that follows passion hindrances cleared away, knowledge hindrance purified, and ego-less-ness clearly perceived and patiently accepted. As the mortal-mind ceases to discriminate, there is no more thirst for life, no more sex-lust, no more thirst for learning, no more thirst for eternal life; with the disappearance of these fourfold thirsts, there is no more accumulation of habit-energy; with no more accumulation of habit-energy the defilements on the face of the Universal Mind clear away, and the Bodhisattva attains self-realization of Noble Wisdom that is the heart’s assurance of Nirvana.
The heart's goal is beyond that of the mind, it is the heart (soul) that reaches the state of Nirvana.
Lankavatara Sutra said:
Wherever the Tathagatas enter with their sustaining power there will be music, not only music made by human lips and played by human hands on various instruments, but there will be music among the grass and shrubs and trees, and in the mountains and towns and palaces and hovels; much more will there be music in the heart of those endowed with sentiency. :purpleheart:
Thus it isn't the heart that makes music, it isn't the mind; yet our soul that sings, is a common expression.
Lankavatara Sutra said:
Mahamati:We are taught that this Buddha-nature immanent in everyone is eternal, unchanging, and auspicious. It is not this, which is born of the Womb of Tathágata-hood the same as the soul-substance that is taught by the philosophers? The Divine Atman as taught by them is also claimed to be eternal, inscrutable, unchanging, and imperishable. Is there, or is there not a difference?

The Blessed One replied: No, Mahamati, my Womb of Tathágata-hood is not the same as the Divine Atman as taught by the philosophers. What I teach is Tathágata-hood in the sense of Dharmakaya, Ultimate Oneness, Nirvana, emptiness, unborn-ness, unqualified ness, devoid of will-effort.
Thus Buddha denies the Atman (self), and the eternal unchanging soul, and replaces it with the state of Øneness (Zero-ness), evolving continuity (Santana)....

When you realize I'm not making a new realm of the Bodhisattva, it exists, and has certain qualities, which generally seem to get confused down here in the Maya; you might understand I've only been sent to help.

Forgive me for having not read all the Sutras yet, and mainly quoting from one, on a mission to read them all.... Yet the Lankavatara Sutra is an overly deep enough explanation of all these principles anyway. :innocent:
 
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buddhist

Well-Known Member
"The All" is the sense-bases and objects. Anything else is beyond range, including speculation about mutliverses and suchlike.

"The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html
I disagree with your interpretation of what the Buddha said when he referred to the "All".

You seem to suggest that I speaking of multiple "Alls". I am not. Perhaps where you define the "universe" as equivalent to the "All", I do not.

Along with my interpretation of his statement which you quoted, I consider a mere "universe" to consist of a particular brahma-loka (within the rupa-loka) which encompasses the realm of a Maha-Brahma and planes of existence below his, including the kama-lokas particular to his universe. As multiple Maha-Brahmas are said to exist according to the canon, e.g. Baka. Sahampati, Sanatkumara, etc., I see them each as reigning at the head of each of their particular "universe". The collection of all these "universes", and the rupa-lokas and arupa-lokas above theirs, I call the "multiverse" or the "All". I do not state anything besides the "All", or go beyond the Buddha's definition of the "All".


As an "early Buddhist" you should know this.
Please refrain from ad hominem attacks. My interpretation of his statements simply differs from yours.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
It is strange how people act like they are unable to distinguish between a pronoun and a metaphysical statement.

Please clarify what you mean. 'People act' itself means a seat of awareness. Nothing less and nothing more.
 
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