Buddhist Have a Soul

[psychoslice]

We also need to realize that the so called Buddha never knew everything, whatever he knew and shared was his concept of what he himself experienced, I feel that we and each one of us need to experience what is called truth for ourselves, that is the only place that you will ever know the truth, but as soon as you share that, it becomes a concept, just as the so called Buddha's sharing became.

 

[wizanda]

Namaste Katari-Ji,

I suggest that you allow Buddhists, with education and practice in Buddhism, to speak to what Buddhism is, though.

I agree, wouldn't want to tell Buddhist what to believe about Buddhism... Like i can't tell Jews what to believe about Judaism or Christians about Christianity....

Yet what we can see is that we're in a place where everything gets corrupted; so based on first hand experience of Heaven in a NDE, and being sent from there, explaining what i know of these things based on my knowledge, and the texts.

What you seem to be doing is appropriating and conglomerating whichever religious concepts you happen to like.

To me there is only one ultimate truth, and we don't have it individually....

Only by placing all the bits together, can we see which bits stick out as wrong; then overall can we start to see the bigger picture.

 

[atanu]

.... Further, he did speak of the five aggregates (temporary properties like consciousness) which formed what we normally think of as "self." .....

Hello Kartari. Pardon my intrusion. Temporary consciousness that you mention is called 'Vijnana' or 'vinnana' in Sanskrit and Pali respectively. Vijnana rises in different forms. But 'Citta', Consciousness is an Ultimate (paramarthika) category as per Abhidhamma.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yep, life is life, and what we have as this mind body organism, is all we have, make the best of it, after all that's why we arise from the Source, so as to enjoy our creations, but don't get too evolved with the body, its only a vehicle , nothing more.

I agree. For all practible intents and purposes, this is the only "life" there is.

It's the same way we came in, and will go out. Maybe in again, but not this sense of self identity.

I think the problem is carryover of self identity and ego, otherwise reincarnation wouldn't be such an issue of speculation among dharmics primarily.

 

[George-ananda]

Hi George & Rick,

If I may...







George is correct about Tibetan Buddhism teaching reincarnation, actually. However... the thing to understand is that, like Hinduism, Buddhism is really a very broad array of schools. Tibetan Buddhism deviates from most other schools of Buddhism with respect to reincarnation. In fact, I know of no other Buddhist sect which embraces the concept.

This acceptance of reincarnation is probably due to the fact that Tibet was heavily influenced by Indian Buddhism (before it died out in India in the 12th century) and Indian culture more broadly (there are some practices in Tibetan Buddhism that are shared by some Hindus) during the formative years of Tibetan Buddhism in the 8th century CE onwards. It has been said with accuracy that Tibetan Buddhism actually most closely represents Indian Buddhism before its demise. Indeed, the Indian Buddhist monk Padmasambhava is believed to have first brought the Dhamma to Tibet in the 8th century.

Furthermore, I understand that there are differences between how reincarnation is understood in Hinduism and in Tibetan Buddhism. I am not expert enough in Tibetan Buddhism to really clarify further with expertise, but I believe reincarnation is seen as something only monks of a certain attainment are capable of consciously doing, whereas rebirth is the more general assumption. For instance, the Dalai Lama is believed to be the reincarnation of the Boddhisattva Avalokiteshvara because he's a Bodhisattva and capable of consciously reincarnating for the purpose of being the political and spiritual ruler of the nation (until China ruined the political part in 1950, at least).

What do you see other major Buddhist tradition's understanding of 'rebirth' to be? It appears to me it is really similar to reincarnation but vaguer on just what it is that 'rebirths'. In my beliefs what rebirths is a temporary subtle body that exists for many lifetimes until Nirvana/Moksha/Liberation. This I believe is neither confirmed nor denied exactly by the larger Buddhist schools which imply something continues (without providing details).

My original involvement in this thread was to point out that the concept of 'rebirth' in the major schools/sects of Buddhism conflict with the materialist concept of death (annihilation). On this forum it seems the predominant belief of the Buddhists is really Buddhism+Materialism.

 

[George-ananda]

Yep, life is life, and what we have as this mind body organism, is all we have, make the best of it, after all that's why we arise from the Source, so as to enjoy our creations, but don't get too evolved with the body, its only a vehicle , nothing more.

Well, I don't see it that way (from my serious study of the so-called paranormal) but onwards.......

 

[psychoslice]

I agree. For all practible intents and purposes, this is the only "life" there is.

It's the same way we came in, and will go out. Maybe in again, but not this sense of self identity.

I think the problem is carryover of self identity and ego, otherwise reincarnation wouldn't be such an issue of speculation among dharmics primarily.

Well said.

 

[psychoslice]

Well, I don't see it that way (from my serious study of the so-called paranormal) but onwards.......

Yes, there is no right way anyway, so yes, onward.

 

[atanu]

Na, we are already the Oneness, its just our ignorance that makes us believe we are separate.

You are correct. Yet, I think that until one truly abides as the non dual existence itself, the mere wordy assertions of one-ness backfires.

If from within a dream one says "I am not dreaming", what would that be?

 

[atanu]

My original involvement in this thread was to point out that the concept of 'rebirth' in the major schools/sects of Buddhism conflict with the materialist concept of death (annihilation). On this forum it seems the predominant belief of the Buddhists is really Buddhism+Materialism.

I agree. The idealism of Buddhism (highest in Yogachara school) is simply not known or ignored.

New comers read english translations of Suttas, wherein it is said that 'Consciousness' rises in different forms: as sight, as sound, as touch, as taste, etc etc. due to dependent arising. Most new comers, coming from a materialistic background who believe brain matter to be the source of these consciousnesses, stop there. They believe that awareness is a created thing that goes with the body. In short that is nothing but Nihilism, which Buddha rejected.

The consciousness that rises is Vijnana (sanskrit) or vinnana (Pali). This arisen consciousness, as the qualifier 'vi' preceding the root 'jnana' (to know) indicates, is due to divisive mind, wherein subject and object are divided. So, in this type of consciousness 'vi' decides the fate of 'Jnana' and so it is temporary and transient. Vijnana (jnana dependent upon mind-senses) is transient. No argument there.

But what about Citta (Paramarthika Consciousness) that is a paramarthika? Does it vanish into thin air?

 

[psychoslice]

You are correct. Yet, I think that until one truly abides as the non dual existence itself, the mere wordy assertions of one-ness backfires.

If from within a dream one says "I am not dreaming", what would that be?

Yes, but why make it complicated, we are the Source, and we are also the mind body organism, a cake is a cake, but its also flour and whatever, why make it complicated, just enjoy the cake.

 

[atanu]

Yes, but why make it complicated, we are the Source, and we are also the mind body organism, a cake is a cake, but its also flour and whatever, why make it complicated, just enjoy the cake.

Take care of diabetes but. Ha. Ha.

 

[atanu]

I do think that one can attain Nibbana, if one studies the below picture and then introverts the Citta. What else is there?

Dharma-s, which are mental factors, are dependent upon internal sense bases are thus transient. Internal sense bases, however, depend on Citta, which is an ultimate reality.

So, what remains when the Citta is introverted?

 

[psychoslice]

Take care of diabetes but. Ha. Ha.

Ha, yes and diabetes is also part of the Oneness.

 

[buddhist]

@wizanda, from an early Buddhist perspective, I agree that there is - in a sense - a "soul". The soul is simply the interaction of the various khandas, which means that the "soul" is neither permanent nor eternal.

It's like pointing to a river and saying "there's the Nile river", but in actuality, when we looks closer with the eye of wisdom, we can see that the river is ever changing and neither permanent nor eternal. In the same sense, an individual's "soul" exists - in a conventional sense, just as an individual's "body" exists, also in an conventional sense.

Since the soul is neither permanent nor eternal, it is also a source of pain and suffering; the process of awakening and enlightenment seeks to dissolve through detachment not only the ever-changing threads which we perceive as "body", but also the ever-changing threads which we may perceive as "soul".

 

[wizanda]

So, what remains when the Citta is introverted?

Lots, having had a NDE, that is what happens, you go through/within the physical consciousness, through your heart, and then into a whole metaphysical version of reality.

There are multiple dimensions, with very dense self orientated conscious being at the bottom, and at the top Oneness consisting of unconditional love, wisdom, and then the CPU.

Introverting our mental consciousness, to go within is a start to seeing, which to me is just meditation.

But what about Citta (Paramarthika Consciousness) that is a paramarthika? Does it vanish into thin air?

From my understanding of what you're saying, if paramarthika means the ultimate, absolute; then in terms of consciousness, there is only the CPU as the absolute of this reality....

We wouldn't exist without it, we'd vanish into thin air, if we were no longer part of the CPU.

I do think that one can attain Nibbana, if one studies the below picture and then introverts the Citta. What else is there?

There is Oneness (Heaven), which manifest this reality, it is the realm of the Tathagata which the Buddhas attain...

The reason i call it Øneness (zero-ness), is that its qualities match what Buddha refers to as Nirvana.

 

[buddhist]

... There are multiple dimensions, with very dense self orientated conscious being at the bottom, and at the top Oneness consisting of unconditional love, wisdom, and then the CPU...There is Oneness (Heaven), which manifest this reality, it is the realm of the Tathagata which the Buddhas attain...The reason i call it Øneness (zero-ness), is that its qualities match what Buddha refers to as Nirvana.

Does the "Oneness", as you call it, contain All things, e.g. external plus internal? That is, everything that can possibly be conceived, is this "Oneness"?

 

[wizanda]

Does the "Oneness", as you call it, contain All things, e.g. external plus internal?

Oneness is the real name for Heaven; it is a place beyond all dimensions, which are all created from consciousness vibrating at different speeds.

Within Oneness, because it is beyond anything within the Maya's dimensions, i.e. infinite time, matter, physics, etc....

Everything within Oneness is in a state of not even formed yet; often people see what they expected to perceive as in a realm of pure consciousness, it becomes manifest.

That is why only those who've attained a state of Nirvana (Øneness) are welcome there; as in a selfless environment, it is possible for all to be at one with the Source....

The moment anyone takes, and becomes self orientated, they fall back down here.

Everything that is here, is a construct (Maya) from the CPU; it maintains the mathematical grid (Matrix) that sustains the reality we see around us.

Easier way to understand it, is a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Play Game....

The material universe is made manifest by the CPU, the core surrounding it is Oneness, as it all unifies the program at a quantum level, thus we have this game to exist within.

We are unique characters within the game, and as a part of Oneness we exist; as we become more separatist, we no longer exist in a physical sense or are reborn back into the game, until we realize if Oneness isn't, we can't exist.

That is, everything that can possibly be conceived, is this "Oneness"?

Oneness is in the moment before time, imagine a pool of consciousness with no ripples; it can create what ever it wants, in which ever direction the pebble is thrown....

Now if the pebble was never thrown, then nothing would exist; this is the infinite state Buddha, etc, seem to be talking about, a state of Øneness (Nirvana).

 

[buddhist]

Oneness is the real name for Heaven; it is a place beyond all dimensions, which are all created from consciousness vibrating at different speeds.

Within Oneness, because it is beyond anything within the Maya's dimensions, i.e. infinite time, matter, physics, etc....

Everything within Oneness is in a state of not even formed yet; often people see what they expected to perceive as in a realm of pure consciousness, it becomes manifest.

That is why only those who've attained a state of Nirvana (Øneness) are welcome there; as in a selfless environment, it is possible for all to be at one with the Source....

The moment anyone takes, and becomes self orientated, they fall back down here.

Everything that is here, is a construct (Maya) from the CPU, it maintains the mathematical grid (Matrix) that sustains the reality we see around us.

Easier way to understand it, is a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Play Game....

The material universe is made manifest by the CPU, the core surrounding it is Oneness, as it all unifies the program at a quantum level, thus we have this game to exist within.

We are unique characters within the game, and as a part of Oneness we exist; as we become more separatist, we no longer exist in a physical sense or are reborn back into the game, until we realize if Oneness isn't, we can't exist.

Oneness is in the moment before time, imagine a pool of consciousness with no ripples; it can create what ever it wants, in which ever direction the pebble is thrown....

Now if the pebble was never thrown, then nothing would exist; this is the infinite state Buddha, etc, seem to be talking about, a state of Øneness (Nirvana).

Your ideas about "oneness" seems similar to my ideas about the whole of samsara itself.

I see samsara as encompassing everything there is, in every possible permutation of existence, the infinite multiverse of the "All". Its limit ends at the eighth ayatana/"jhana" (the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception).

I perceive nibbana/nirvana as one step beyond that altogether, being neither infinite nor non-infinite, neither Oneness nor not-Oneness, neither-conscious nor not-conscious, etc.

 

[wizanda]

I perceive nibbana/nirvana as one step beyond that altogether, being neither infinite nor non-infinite, neither Oneness nor not-Oneness, neither-conscious nor not-conscious, etc.

Agreed, i also see Nirvana as a state of the middle line.... In a moment before infinite time was even thought about.
[GALLERY=media, 5291][/GALLERY]
This is my logo, as you can see we sit between the middle line as a unique dynamic vibration.