Bully XL ban

[McBell]

Not me. Large dogs, small children - as per the attacks cited previously.

So then it is the combination of large dogs and small children that is the cause for concern?

 

[Secret Chief]

I think our views on animals still need to change. There are instances where law enforcement have unreasonably killed dogs without any consequences, there are where neighbors have poisoned dogs, instances where owners suffer only minor penalties for cruel treatment towards dogs, and instances where people who have no business caring for animals continue to do so.

Totally agree.

 

[Secret Chief]

So then it is the combination of large dogs and small children that is the cause for concern?

Significantly yes. But they are also capable of killing adults - and have done so - again, as previously cited.

It's not just statistics. The chance of me being shot if living in America is very small, but I am still in favour of the principle of private individuals generally being not legally allowed to own a firearm.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If guns pose a danger to the general public, they should be effectively controlled in a socially responsible manner.
If pit bulls pose a danger to the general public, they should be effectively controlled in a socially responsible manner..

 

[Stevicus]

So @Stevicus offered a cite

• that claims "1 in 118,776 Odds of Dying from a Dog Attack,"
• and offers "You're more likely to die from a fall or choking than from a dog attack."

Well, that settles it. I'm no longer significantly concerned about dying from a dog attack, so thank you for that. Of course, it is extremely unlikely that I might be killed by arsenic poisoning, but that doesn't make me less supportive of strict controls.

There are strict controls on arsenic, but it's not entirely illegal in the United States.

The same post and article which contained that citation also included this:

studies indicate breed is not a dependable marker or predictor of dangerous behavior in dogs

I find it interesting that no one in this thread has addressed this particular point, yet keep basing their position on their conclusion that breed is a dependable marker or predictor of dangerous behavior in dogs.

 

[Secret Chief]

I find it interesting that no one in this thread has addressed this particular point, yet keep basing their position on their conclusion that breed is a dependable marker or predictor of dangerous behavior in dogs.

Well it may not be a dependable marker as to behaviour, I'm no dog expert. But that is not the only point regarding breeds. If I've got to be attacked by a dog, I'd prefer it to be a significantly more aggressive chihuahua than a bully xl (the name doesn't exactly suggest family pet).

Actually a quick searcg suggests, for whatever reason/s, certain breeds seem to crop up regularly as attacking people; pit bull types being one of a smallish number:

- List of fatal dog attacks in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There are strict controls on arsenic, but it's not entirely illegal in the United States.

OK.

I find it interesting that no one in this thread has addressed this particular point, yet keep basing their position on their conclusion that breed is a dependable marker or predictor of dangerous behavior in dogs.

See Pit Bulls: Risks and Solutions which notes ...

Pit bull owners often say that the dog is not dangerous because pit bulls have not been proved to bite people more often than other dogs bite people. Nevertheless, it has been proved that the injuries inflicted by pit bulls are far worse than injuries caused by other common breeds of dog. See the study in Annals of Surgery conducted by physicians which concluded that attacks by pit bulls are associated with higher morbidity rates, higher hospital charges, and a higher risk of death than are attacks by other breeds of dogs.​

It later notes:

The annual cost resulting from fatal maulings by pit bulls has been estimated at more than $100 million per year. Merritt Clifton, Punishing the Deed Costs Twice As Much As Banning Dogs of Fighting Breed.​

​

If pit bulls are not to be banned altogether, the breed certainly must be restricted as to who may own it, where it may live, and how it is to be confined and restrained whether on public or private property. See Keep Certain High-Risk Dogs Away From the Wrong People, Places and Situations.​

And it finally observes:

In England, dog attacks surged 76% when the ban on pit bulls was lifted. See Merritt Clifton, Dog attacks surge 76% in England in 10 years, coinciding with exemption of Staffordshire pit bulls from the Dangerous Dogs Act.​

 

[Stevicus]

Well it may not be a dependable marker as to behaviour, I'm no dog expert. But that is not the only point regarding breeds. If I've got to be attacked by a dog, I'd prefer it to be a significantly more aggressive chihuahua than a bully xl (the name doesn't exactly suggest family pet).

In either case, my first question would be: Where is the owner? I still maintain that focus should be on the owner, not on the breed. I would grant that there are some dogs who are so badly mistreated and become so aggressive that, in those cases, there's little option but to put them down. The article I cited also contained information about other controllable factors which exist.

 

[Stevicus]

OK.



See Pit Bulls: Risks and Solutions which notes ...

Pit bull owners often say that the dog is not dangerous because pit bulls have not been proved to bite people more often than other dogs bite people. Nevertheless, it has been proved that the injuries inflicted by pit bulls are far worse than injuries caused by other common breeds of dog. See the study in Annals of Surgery conducted by physicians which concluded that attacks by pit bulls are associated with higher morbidity rates, higher hospital charges, and a higher risk of death than are attacks by other breeds of dogs.​

It later notes:

The annual cost resulting from fatal maulings by pit bulls has been estimated at more than $100 million per year. Merritt Clifton, Punishing the Deed Costs Twice As Much As Banning Dogs of Fighting Breed.​

​

If pit bulls are not to be banned altogether, the breed certainly must be restricted as to who may own it, where it may live, and how it is to be confined and restrained whether on public or private property. See Keep Certain High-Risk Dogs Away From the Wrong People, Places and Situations.​

And it finally observes:

In England, dog attacks surged 76% when the ban on pit bulls was lifted. See Merritt Clifton, Dog attacks surge 76% in England in 10 years, coinciding with exemption of Staffordshire pit bulls from the Dangerous Dogs Act.​

I agree with restricting them and holding the owners accountable for negligence.

 

[Secret Chief]

In either case, my first question would be: Where is the owner? I still maintain that focus should be on the owner, not on the breed. I would grant that there are some dogs who are so badly mistreated and become so aggressive that, in those cases, there's little option but to put them down. The article I cited also contained information about other controllable factors which exist.

Fyi - edited my post.

I don't see it as an either/or issue. As per my link above there do seem certain breeds that account for much of the attacks. But yes the owners too. Imo, proper training should be required for all dog ownership. Many people seem to have dogs that are not trained. And it is of course true that your typical macho ****head will want a bulldog over a daschund. And probably won't train it.

 

[Augustus]

find it interesting that no one in this thread has addressed this particular point, yet keep basing their position on their conclusion that breed is a dependable marker or predictor of dangerous behavior in dogs

Sounds like a very dubious claim based on equivocation regarding “dangerous behaviour“. Replace that with threat to human life and I’m not sure it will hold up very well.

Im pretty confident a fila brasileiro is more dangerous to humans than a dachshund regardless of any “studies”.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I like dogs but those pitbulls give me the creeps

For some reason morons seem especially fond of them

And that, really, is the problem. Certain breeds of dog are popular with the worst kind of owners

 

[Yerda]

I'd say yes, if they account for a disproportionate number of savagings

In the UK they seem to have been the choice dog for gang members and dealers in the past few years. If they all switch to akitas or rottweilers will the number of dog attacks decrease significantly?

A lot of people buy them specifically to have a large, dangerous dog at hand. They are encouraged to be aggressive, poorly trained and treated like ****. That isn't going to end well with any big dog.

It might be better to look at regulation and licensing of all large breeds.

 

[Koldo]

UK is banning American pit bulls.

Good use of government? Excessive? I didn’t see any posts about the topic, I was curious what RFers thoughts were on this topic.

My understanding is that as a result of this, many dogs of this breed or mixed with this breed currently in shelters will be euthanized.

I support a breeding prohibition, and oppose the euthanasia. Since pitbull dogs are the ones more likely to be involved in serious incidents, it is sensible to prevent further breeding them until they no longer exist.

 

[McBell]

I find it interesting that no one in this thread has addressed this particular point, yet keep basing their position on their conclusion that breed is a dependable marker or predictor of dangerous behavior in dogs.

It is my opinion that it is all about the owner.
However, one can not simply dismiss the breed.

I had a Caucasian Shepard.
Once he passed, I knew with my declining health that I could not handle another one.

 

[wellwisher]

UK is banning American pit bulls.

Good use of government? Excessive? I didn’t see any posts about the topic, I was curious what RFers thoughts were on this topic.

My understanding is that as a result of this, many dogs of this breed or mixed with this breed currently in shelters will be euthanized.

Many people get pit bulls for protection or to extrapolate themselves; manhood, with the pit bull like a prop for extra macho. If they do this out of paranoia or self importance, they may not socialize the dog properly, fearing the dog may lose that edge. Lack of training and socialization can cause the dog to let his or her fighting instincts lead, leading to problems. They were bred to fight in the pit and may decide they want some practice, with every dog a threat; inferred from avoided socialization.

Many of the statistics that were shown are about biting humans. This breed can also be very aggressive toward other dogs and cats, The often want to pick a fight with a more mellow domesticated dog, leading to serious injuries or death. Many will respect humans but anything goes if there is a dog or even a friendly cat. Two pit bulls as a team will rip small animals into two.

However, people who socialize their pit bull, starting young, and give it plenty of exercise, will find that a bully can become good pets and citizen dogs; happy dog.

An alternative solution to banning, might be for Bully Breeders to do what breeders do with Belgian Malinois. The Malinois were originally bred to a be a herding dog, but is now used for military and civilian K-9. They can fetch a handsome price if pre-trained for the job; sell at 2 year old fully trained. The most common breeders of this dog are trainers and not dog breeders trying to maintain breed standards. They breed and train to get maximum price for a K-9; aggression, which could fetch from $10K to $75K per dog.

Belgian Malinois are high energy over achievers and the K-9 bred puppies are too often much for most people to handle; maligators. These Breeders will not sell their puppies to just anyone, unless you are a certified dog trainer, thereby avoiding all the things that can go wrong. This smart, high energy breed that will take over the house, if it does not have a human alpha leader who can outwork him.

The State, rather than just ban, can make Pit bull ownership based on certain qualifications such as being a trainer, or enrolled in training program for such a breed, so the story ends well for humans and other dogs. It is like owning a gun in the US, where you need to take a training course and not just buy one and start shooting with unintended consequences.

Pit bulls can make good pets. They do not need a lot of room to run, like a Malinois, so they can exist in an apartment without a yard, even though they can be large. This is ideal for the lazy owner, who by virtue of neglect, can cause the dog to develop bad habits. This is often what happens.

I used to own a Doberman, which is another breed that needs training and socialization, since they were the only dog specifically bred for personal protection. It was developed in 1870, by Karl Friedrich Louis Dobermann, a German tax collector. He needed a body guard dog when collecting taxes in the shady side of town. He ran the local dog pound and had access to many breeds to create the ideal personal protection dog.

My doberman was from a European work line with a very high energy drive. I did not initially understand what that meant beyond how he looked so cool. I was way over my head until I took training courses to learn how to handle him. During walks as a puppy, we met a pit bull puppy; similar age, and the two became friends and workout buddies. The doberman was like the boxer and the pit bull was like the wrestler. They would teach each other the opposite styles. They mostly played by pit bull rules; wrestling, since the doberman was too fast on his feet, so the pit bull would give up chase and the play would stop. Since my dog wanted to play more than just win, he decided to play by pit bull rules. This worked well for both and they built a bond.

The wrestling skills my dog learned from the pit bull allowed him to play with a Great Dane puppy who weighed 150 pounds with him about 90 pounds at one year. He would use pit bull take down tricks, that he learned from his friend, to take the bigger dog off his feet and then get on top so he could not get back up; no biting. Pitfalls have a grappling style that makes it harder for other dogs to counter since most dogs are not used to close fighting in a pit. My doberman was smart enough to add this his skill set. That pit bull was a nice dog with a big smile due to the exercise, socialization and play.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I like dogs but those pitbulls give me the creeps

For some reason morons seem especially fond of them

Because they're really big babies.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's a terrible law. It would be far better to require people be trained to raise a dog.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

However, people who socialize their pit bull, starting young, and give it plenty of exercise, will find that a bully can become good pets and citizen dogs; happy dog.

Yup. And that's necessary for any dog. They need socialization as a part of learning how to behave.

 

[Yerda]

Because they're really big babies.

My experience of all the American bulldog breeds is that they are unusually chill and big, sweet lumps of silly.