Burden of proof

[Sheldon]

In reality, Death is no more than a change. This is just one of the many things waiting for people to Discover. Fear of death exists for good reason. That too is part of the system.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

We need to get on-message about our millennial third-generation alignment. Since a wave loudly clashing against a long shoreline shakes beliefs widely held.

 

[Sheldon]

I see no trickery. Perhaps it's time to see what actually is rather than what you want it to be.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Love is a constant. To wander the vision quest is to become one with it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

In reality, Death is no more than a change. This is just one of the many things waiting for people to Discover. Fear of death exists for good reason. That too is part of the system.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Eternal stillness reflects cosmic acceptance

 

[ppp]

I do not want anything of you.

Then go handwave at someone gullible.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I was sexualy abused as a child and turned out hetrosexual. How do I reverse that?

I'm sorry you experienced sexual abuse. I did a little, my spouse also.

Were you abused by a same sex person? Do you experience some homosexual desire?

 

[Sheldon]

In reality, Death is no more than a change. This is just one of the many things waiting for people to Discover. Fear of death exists for good reason. That too is part of the system.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Curiosity is the birth of healing, and of us. Joy is a constant.
Nothing is impossible. Without spacetime, one cannot reflect. You must take a stand against greed. The complexity of the present time seems to demand an ennobling of our chakras if we are going to survive.

 

[Sheldon]

I'm sorry you experienced sexual abuse. I did a little, my spouse also.

Were you abused by a same sex person? Do you experience some homosexual desire?

Homosexuality has nothing to do with sexual abuse. I'm horrified to hear you were abused, but equally horrified it seems to have distorted your views about gay people.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yes, I know you believe that. Like I said, that's a long ago debunked theory that is no longer in use.


The ethical thing to do would be to send them to a certified counselor, who is equipped to help them deal with their issues. Cognitive behavioral therapy would be a very good option for them.

What you don't do is tell them that they're gay because they were abused in childhood and that there is something wrong with them because they are gay. That's just going to cause them even more trauma on top of the trauma they've already experienced.

I understand. Let's also think through the issues:

You've used the phrase "no counselor/pro worth their salt" despite the complexities of human sexuality, the body and mind--and despite the fact that so much is psychology is in flux/subject to change. In school and beyond I looked at Behaviorism, Jungian archetypes, Freudian thought, self-actualization and Maslow, etc., etc.

I cannot go only by "the AMA says, the Psychologists say".

 

[BilliardsBall]

No it isn't ever, you just made that up. Hitchens's razor applied.

It would be fair to apply Hitchens here except:

1) Away from RF, I have been constantly witnessing and counseling to hundreds, even thousands of people, in public preaching and in individual sessions.

2) You?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm sorry you experienced sexual abuse. I did a little, my spouse also.

Were you abused by a same sex person? Do you experience some homosexual desire?

. This concept of yours has been shown to be false. At best you have only confirmation bias. Do you understand what that is?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I'm sorry you experienced sexual abuse. I did a little, my spouse also.

Were you abused by a same sex person? Do you experience some homosexual desire?

I can't take it. It made me hetrosexual. That is so wrong. Help me and pray for me. God and Jesus will set me free. You have shown me the light. I don't have to be hetrosexual.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Refer them to someone with some qualifications that don't involve unevidenced superstitions, and that won't make them feel they are somehow wrong, or that they are immoral because they happen to be gay, or appallingly make them think that who they are can be changed from gay to straight, because archaic religious homophobic bigotry thinks it is necessary.

When can we tell someone they're wrong? When is discrimination appropriate?

When do we AFFIRM people who say "I'm gay and unhappy and I've already tried/lived my "truth" as a gay person and it's not working!"?

You are missing the point that people seeking counseling are pursuing a healing from brokenness.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It would be fair to apply Hitchens here except:

1) Away from RF, I have been constantly witnessing and counseling to hundreds, even thousands of people, in public preaching and in individual sessions.

2) You?

I doubt if you are a trained counselor. You may have given a lot of people a lot of very bad advice. That does not make you a counselor.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Homosexuality has nothing to do with sexual abuse. I'm horrified to hear you were abused, but equally horrified it seems to have distorted your views about gay people.

Fundamentalist Christianity will do that to people.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I understand. Let's also think through the issues:

You've used the phrase "no counselor/pro worth their salt" despite the complexities of human sexuality, the body and mind--and despite the fact that so much is psychology is in flux/subject to change. In school and beyond I looked at Behaviorism, Jungian archetypes, Freudian thought, self-actualization and Maslow, etc., etc.

I cannot go only by "the AMA says, the Psychologists say".

Freud is garbage. You are using outdated ideas from the earliest days of psychology, more than a century ago, that are no longer used by anyone with a proper education in psychology and counseling. We have found much more effective treatment methods such as cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectical behavioral therapy, structural family therapy, etc., that don't require delving into the past at all. The obvious reason you are doing this is because thanks to the Bible, you believe that there is something wrong with gay people and so have sought out ideas that reinforce that belief. That's how it appears from where I'm sitting. Please tell me I'm wrong.

If you don't have a proper degree, then what you are doing is straight up unethical. No counselor with the proper education and a proper degree would be pushing this stuff onto people. A counselor's job is to help people navigate their lives to the best of their ability and to minimize distress - not judge them and make their lives worse. You actually do need to seek guidance from the AMA - that's what they are there for. And sorry to tell you, but they know a little more about this than you appear to.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It would be fair to apply Hitchens here except:

1) Away from RF, I have been constantly witnessing and counseling to hundreds, even thousands of people, in public preaching and in individual sessions.

2) You?

1) That doesn't mean you've done a good job of it, or that you've assessed the results property. Especially if you're telling people there is something wrong with them just because they're gay AND if you're telling them they're gay because they were sexually abused as a child. That's not a thing.
2) I have a psychology degree.

It's been pretty well established that gay conversion therapy causes harm. There is a reason it has been banned in the psychology field and by other governing bodies.

 

[SkepticThinker]

When can we tell someone they're wrong? When is discrimination appropriate?

When do we AFFIRM people who say "I'm gay and unhappy and I've already tried/lived my "truth" as a gay person and it's not working!"?

You are missing the point that people seeking counseling are pursuing a healing from brokenness.

Why are you assuming they're unhappy because they are gay?

I know why! Because the Bible tells you they are bad people and so you must believe it.

 

[Sheldon]

Yes, sometimes homosexuality is rooted in teen or youth trauma/sex abuse.

Someone comes to me and says "Can use counsel and prayer, was raped as a child" and what should I (or a professional counselor) do?

No it isn't ever, you just made that up. Hitchens's razor applied.

It would be fair to apply Hitchens here except:

1) Away from RF, I have been constantly witnessing and counseling to hundreds, even thousands of people, in public preaching and in individual sessions.

2) You?

That unevidenced anecdotal claim, even were it true, would not support your assertion. People who have suffered the trauma of sexual abuse, especially as a child, may suffer confusion and guilt about their own sexual desires. This does not mean that people are not born gay, and have no choice about it. This sort of dangerous rationale is used in so called conversion therapy, an evil and immoral victimisation of gay people, based on the appalling lie that there is something wrong with them, which is nonsense.

Being gay is a natural variation of adult human sexual desire. It harms no one, and what consenting adults do, or who they love and marry, is no one else's business.

 

[Sheldon]

When can we tell someone they're wrong? When is discrimination appropriate?

Never, who are you to decide who a person is, is somehow wrong? What people do, and what they say can be wrong, but a person is not born wrong, that's an obscene and egregiously pernicious notion.

When do we AFFIRM people who say "I'm gay and unhappy and I've already tried/lived my "truth" as a gay person and it's not working!"?

Never, they only feel this way because religions and wider society have been unaccepting of who they are, and convinced them that being gay is somehow wrong.

You are missing the point that people seeking counseling are pursuing a healing from brokenness.

Nonsense, and dangerous nonsense at that. gay people can lead happy fulfilling and productive lives, every bit as much as straight people can, being persecuted for who they are is what is causing them to need counselling in the first place, and then religious bigotry "counsels" them to confirm this hateful idea, not to help them accept that there is nothing wrong with them, but to reinforce this hateful notion.

 

[Luchito Prays]

In practical terms in discussions with others, the person who's trying to change someone else's mind is the one with the burden of proof.

In that case, such is burden of persuasion.