Businesses Requiring Vaccine Passports

[Saint Frankenstein]

It isn't guilt-tripping. It's an appeal to a very real and proved possibility, although sometimes we do need to feel guilty if we refuse to take certain measures out of courtesy and respect for others' safety.

Getting vaccinated doesn't "destroy society." In fact, since long-term lockdowns could do exactly that, accelerating the safe opening up of public places and businesses by getting vaccinated seems to me the logical thing to do if one doesn't want society to be destroyed.

I'm talking about the lockdowns destroying society.

 

[Trailblazer]

You brought religious level denial into this. Don't complain when you make that sort of error and it is pointed out to you.

It is predictable that when you cannot respond to what I just said with a reasoned argument you drag out the insults and involve religion. I have been posting to atheists for over eight years so I know the drill.

What, you could not respond to what I said below with some FACTS the will refute what I said?

No, the facts are not all in after a few months of the vaccinations being administered. That is not even logical. Long-term effects cannot be known in a few months.

This not about saving other people, because there will be enough vaccinations for everyone who wants one very soon, and then nothing unvaccinated people do can ever hurt them because they are completely protected, or so they believe, and no, the science is not in on how long they are protected. This whole thing is uncharted territory and I do not generally go into uncharted territory unless I have a very good reason for doing so.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think it's interesting that people seem bent on forcing the Covid vaccine on everyone but we actually have medications to treat/manage and even prevent HIV infections, but I don't see PrEP being forced on everyone. Hell, many people still can't even afford it and these drugs have been available for years. Even though if you gave it to everyone who was HIV-, it could literally wipe out HIV in a generation. And HIV still has no cure (once you have it, you'll not have it), has nearly a 100% fatality rate and has killed at least 32 million people.

I just don't understand some things.

For one thing it is not a vaccine. It is a medication that one needs to take daily. That is a lot more of an imposition on someone's life.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I think it's interesting that people seem bent on forcing the Covid vaccine on everyone but we actually have medications to treat/manage and even prevent HIV infections, but I don't see PrEP being forced on everyone. Hell, many people still can't even afford it and these drugs have been available for years. Even though if you gave it to everyone who was HIV-, it could literally wipe out HIV in a generation. And HIV still has no cure (once you have it, you'll not have it), has nearly a 100% fatality rate and has killed at least 32 million people.

I just don't understand some things.

One key difference is that HIV doesn't transmit through sneezing and coughing. Usually, you need to come in contact with bodily fluids from an infected person to contract it, but someone with COVID can infect an entire closed room literally by just sneezing around them.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is predictable that when you cannot respond to what I just said with a reasoned argument you drag out the insults and involve religion. I have been posting to atheists for over eight years so I know the drill.

What, you could not respond to what I said below with some FACTS the will refute what I said?

No, the facts are not all in after a few months of the vaccinations being administered. That is not even logical. Long-term effects cannot be known in a few months.

This not about saving other people, because there will be enough vaccinations for everyone who wants one very soon, and then nothing unvaccinated people do can ever hurt them because they are completely protected, or so they believe, and no, the science is not in on how long they are protected. This whole thing is uncharted territory and I do not generally go into uncharted territory unless I have a very good reason for doing so.

Oh so wrong. I did respond rationally. You had no answer. When you continued to spout nonsense that is when I pointed out the implied flaws of your views. Let's not make false accusations against others.

And long term effects of vaccines are known. Your fears are irrational.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'm talking about the lockdowns destroying society.

So you don't want to get vaccinated and don't support lockdowns? What do you want, then? Just opening back up and ignoring the fact that 2.81m people have died from the virus globally (not to mention the overwhelmed medical infrastructures in some parts of the world due to the pandemic)?

 

[Trailblazer]

Those refusing to be vaccinated put everyone else at risk.

How can they put people at risk who are vaccinated of the vaccines offer offer almost 100% protection?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It makes one either ignorant or extremely selfish.

No. Not ignorant since we are reading the same sources. Not selfish because in order to be at an actual risk you'd have to actually have symptoms to spread it. If you don't have symptoms, it's a perceived risk based on fear. So, they're not selfish...but I do think the other side is afraid. Nothing wrong with that.

Those refusing to be vaccinated put everyone else at risk.

No. They only do if they have the virus.

They have no grounds to complain if they have to pay a price for their ignorance.

They're not ignorant. They know just as much as you do (case in point). They just choose to make a decision you find is selfish. That doesn't make them selfish in and of itself... just your opinion.

Please note, calling those people ignorant is giving them the benefit of the doubt. They might just be evil selfish people.

No. That's silly. If I go around someone who has not be vaccinated, we Only put each other at risk if we have the virus. If we do not, it does not matter if we are vaccinated or not. The other person can get vaccinated just in case but that doesn't make either of us ignorant, evil, or selfish.

It's based on the situation.

Do you believe someone is selfish for not taking the vaccine if he or she is not around people to possibly catch the virus?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I think it's interesting that people seem bent on forcing the Covid vaccine on everyone but we actually have medications to treat/manage and even prevent HIV infections, but I don't see PrEP being forced on everyone. Hell, many people still can't even afford it and these drugs have been available for years. Even though if you gave it to everyone who was HIV-, it could literally wipe out HIV in a generation. And HIV still has no cure (once you have it, you'll not have it), has nearly a 100% fatality rate and has killed at least 32 million people.

I just don't understand some things.

HIV, while being a pandemic, has never sunk hospitals who ran out of beds and supplies due to sudden onset of severe symptoms, threatening the collapse of the entire health infrastructure.
Though I'd be all about regular government subsidizing cost of HIV prevention instead of letting private insurances get away with 1,000% markups. But you'll have to take up resistance to NHS up with the Republicans and democrats who oppose it.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

How can they put people at risk who are vaccinated of the vaccines offer offer almost 100% protection?

Once again, people who don't get vaccinated are petri dishes for incubating new viral strains which are vaccine resistant. The more people who get vaccinated, the less likely a new strain mutates which is vaccine resistant.

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh so wrong. I did respond rationally. You had no answer.

I had an answer, you just did not like my answer because you did not agree with it.

And long term effects of vaccines are known. Your fears are irrational.

Obfuscation. Long term effects of these covid-19 vaccines cannot be known because the long term has not occurred yet.
Logic 101.

If you want to take the risk that is your business, just don't expect everyone to jump on the band wagon and then call them selfish if they don't. We are not selfish because we are not preventing anyone from getting the vaccines that offers them almost 100% protection.

 

[Heyo]

I am absolutely against the idea. Making the vaccine mandatory (and voluntary is really just a step away from mandatory, in my opinion) completely goes against people's right to choose for themselves. I think this is all just another thing bringing us right down the road to totalitarianism.

It doesn't infringe on the right of a person to get vaccinated or not. It just opens up the right of businesses to open earlier without endangering public health.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So you don't want to get vaccinated and don't support lockdowns? What do you want, then? Just opening back up and ignoring the fact that 2.81m people have died from the virus globally (not to mention the overwhelmed medical infrastructures in some parts of the world due to the pandemic)?

What do I want? I want people to start using some logic because this isn't making much sense at all. Since when have we enacted such strict measures, that basically put much of the global population under house arrest over a disease that isn't severe or fetal for the vast majority of the population, if they ever get it? What are we going to do with the damage from all the homicides, suicides, soaring rates of substance abuse, the horrible impact of the lockdowns on children and young people? The murder and gun violence rate in the US has been soaring since last summer. This year may have the most murders on record of the rate continues in my city, according to the news.

Many more people will likely die from the lockdowns than from Covid, when this is over. I'm just not a fan of authoritarianism. I'm not getting the vaccine, regardless, because I don't trust it and don't want it in my body. If others want to get it so badly, they are welcome to. I just go to work and stay home, anyway.

 

[Debater Slayer]

No. Not ignorant since we are reading the same sources. Not selfish because in order to be at an actual risk you'd have to actually have symptoms to spread it. If you don't have symptoms, it's a perceived risk based on fear. So, they're not selfish...but I do think the other side is afraid. Nothing wrong with that.



No. They only do if they have the virus.



They're not ignorant. They know just as much as you do (case in point). They just choose to make a decision you find is selfish. That doesn't make them selfish in and of itself... just your opinion.



No. That's silly. If I go around someone who has not be vaccinated, we Only put each other at risk if we have the virus. If we do not, it does not matter if we are vaccinated or not. The other person can get vaccinated just in case but that doesn't make either of us ignorant, evil, or selfish.

It's based on the situation.

Do you believe someone is selfish for not taking the vaccine if he or she is not around people to possibly catch the virus?

Except that anyone could have the virus and not know it because asymptomatic infection and transmission are a thing:

1 in 5 COVID-19 Cases Are Asymptomatic but Can Spread the Disease

 

[Unveiled Artist]

They can; I just don't see any indication of that in the reasoning you've given in this thread. You're merely making nebulous, poorly reasoned claims and overreaching by making assertions about a medical issue without any professional references or studies as if you were an expert or some other authority on the subject.

No. I'll break it down.

1. The vaccine works. Science says so
2. It's only appropriate to get the vaccine based on the situation (lifestyle, population, where one works)
3. No doctor will tell anyone to take any treatment if the situation doesn't fit the bill regardless if the meds work

4. Not all of us are saying the vaccine does not work
5. Not all of us are saying science is wrong
6. We all read the same sources you guys read

7. We're not putting at risk unless we have the virus
8. Lastly, since we don't know who has the virus, it's a perceived risk based on fear

Yet more assertions with no studies or expert opinions to back them up. This is beyond intellectually irresponsible given the seriousness of the subject in question. At least try to post links or citations to reliable evidence if you're going to make so many claims about something outside your field of expertise.

Because you're mixing points up.

Did you want studies that the vaccine works?
Did you want studies that medicine and any treatment is only appropriate based on the person's health and situation?
Did you want facts that doctors shouldn't tell patients to take any meds just because it works in and of itself?
Did you want facts and studies that say people fear the virus?

It seems like you think I'm saying the vaccine is ineffective and science is wrong. I never said that.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

HIV, while being a pandemic, has never sunk hospitals who ran out of beds and supplies due to sudden onset of severe symptoms, threatening the collapse of the entire health infrastructure.

Where has this happened?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Long term effects of these covid-19 vaccines cannot be known because the long term has not occurred yet.
Logic 101.

The only component of the covid vaccine which is novel is the spike protein it teaches the body to make. And that same material is what you get if you get infected with covid. Everything else about the covid vaccines has been used in other vaccines for years. mRNA vaccines were even used with Zika.
The idea that there is some long term effect we should be worried about in the covid vaccine is unfounded.

 

[Debater Slayer]

No. I'll break it down.

1. The vaccine works. Science says so
2. It's only appropriate to get the vaccine based on the situation (lifestyle, population, where one works)
3. No doctor will tell anyone to take any treatment if the situation doesn't fit the bill regardless if the meds work

4. Not all of us are saying the vaccine does not work
5. Not all of us are saying science is wrong
6. We all read the same sources you guys read

7. We're not putting at risk unless we have the virus
8. Lastly, since we don't know who has the virus, it's a perceived risk based on fear



Because you're mixing points up.

Did you want studies that the vaccine works?
Did you want studies that medicine and any treatment is only appropriate based on the person's health and situation?
Did you want facts that doctors shouldn't tell patients to take any meds just because it works in and of itself?
Did you want facts and studies that say people fear the virus?

It seems like you think I'm saying the vaccine is ineffective and science is wrong. I never said that.

I'm done trying to reason with you. Either you change the goalposts or you keep missing the same points over and over.

I just hope your poorly reasoned beliefs on this and the obstinate refusal to reconsider your position don't end up harming anyone or putting anyone at risk (whether you or someone else).

Have a nice day.

 

[Trailblazer]

No. Not ignorant since we are reading the same sources. Not selfish because in order to be at an actual risk you'd have to actually have symptoms to spread it. If you don't have symptoms, it's a perceived risk based on fear. So, they're not selfish...but I do think the other side is afraid. Nothing wrong with that.

No. They only do if they have the virus.

They're not ignorant. They know just as much as you do (case in point). They just choose to make a decision you find is selfish. That doesn't make them selfish in and of itself... just your opinion.

No. That's silly. If I go around someone who has not be vaccinated, we Only put each other at risk if we have the virus. If we do not, it does not matter if we are vaccinated or not. The other person can get vaccinated just in case but that doesn't make either of us ignorant, evil, or selfish.

It's based on the situation.

Do you believe someone is selfish for not taking the vaccine if he or she is not around people to possibly catch the virus?

I appreciate your effort at reasoning, but one thing I have learned on forums is that you cannot reason with people who believe they know everything. It's just not possible because ego gets in the way.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

These are fear statements

No, they are comparable. Things no one in their reasonable mind would do, even though the consequences are not assured.

Just because you (people) are around majority of others who want to play safe than sorry doesn't make the minority ignorant of not doing the same.

500,000 dead plus all the chronically ill, yes, I would rather be safe than sorry. That's why I also quit smoking.

But safe-than-sorry statements aren't good support arguments.

Do you eat well and exercise? It's not guaranteed to work, and it is a better safe than sorry.

Are there facts that someone "will" spread the virus if they don't have the vaccine?

People have been doing a lot of it for the past 16 months or so. So much, in fact, there are now a variety of strains.