Businesses Requiring Vaccine Passports

[Unveiled Artist]

"Fault" would apply if there wrongs resulted.
This sounds too hypothetical.
I question who is deciding to not take the shot, & why.

I assume there are many valid reasons a person may be well educated in the virus and decide not to take the vaccine. I can't think of a good example other than a doctor not taking the vaccine because of his lifestyle, circumstance, and well-being. A lot of people make decisions based on those factors.

Do you think there are valid reasons for not taking the vaccine if a said person has done their research and decides not to take it?

Other than health reasons, could there be?

 

[SomeRandom]

I'm sure you can figure that out on your own, though?

Sorry, got buried with a ton of notifications.
Yes we can figure things out on our own. But since I don’t specialise in the immunology discipline of medicine I tend to go with expert consensus.
We do that on a daily basis even. Jesus
Whenever my work recommends I do something to comply with health and safety ordinates guess who’s opinion they’re going by. Hint, it’s not a layman on the internet.
Whenever we have snap lockdowns and mask mandates to stop the spread. Who do you think the government is (ideally) listening to? Hint. It’s not a layman on the internet.
We listen to experts on a daily basis. Even when you look at the ingredients of the food and drink you consume. Who do you think wrote that? Hint, it’s not a layman on the internet.
Christ sakes. Vaccines are just chemicals. We are chemicals. If I try I can make dihydrogen monoxide (water) sound scary if I wanted to. It’s why we don’t tend to rely on laymen. Spoiler alert they can’t assess scientific data correctly most of the time. Duh

If a doctor diagnosed me with cancer, I'd get a second and third opinion. Sure I listen to the experts, but I do have a brain myself.

Well of course. Doctors can get things wrong. But if the second and third said you have cancer, isn’t it a bit egotistic not to think you may have cancer? That you know better than the experts, 3 seperate ones no less?

You'd have to show me a stat.... I don't think it's possible to generalize that much to say antivaxxers are the cause for this or that. Anti-vaxxers (at least in the states) are a minority. I would have to see a fact-statistics.. what you're saying sounds like a generalization on people you disagree with. It highly depends on many factors.

Access to health services can affect rates, this is true. But can it really be responsible for what, 1.5 million preventable deaths in the US last year?
Seems a bit steep but okay.
I can also factor in the over reliance on antibiotics. But that too doesn’t account for the resurgences of preventable diseases we’ve seen.

The Anti-vaccination Movement: A Regression in Modern Medicine
Anti-Vaccine Decision-Making and Measles Resurgence in the United States
Anti-vaccination advocates double down as measles kills 50 Samoan children - this is an example of why I have a tinge of animosity towards anti vaxxers (not people who legitimately can’t have vaccines.)
Their lies kill people and they don’t seem to care.
So I apologise if I was generalising somewhat. But we have preventable diseases right now that we are trying to cure instead of, you know, preventing!!!

I won't say you're wrong, I just can't take your word for it unless you can support the correlation between anti-vaxxers and resurge of the disease. The social distancing argument makes more sense in the resurge but not people choosing not to take the vaccine.

Social distancing is just one way we try to stop the spread. But it’s better to have herd immunity then we wouldn’t really have to anymore. We could go back to enjoying our family and friends out in public completely maskless. Is this not a worthwhile goal? Well I guess if you started an Etsy store for masks you wouldn’t think so. Hmm

No. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

You seemed to actively support people’s decision to not have a vaccine that increases herd immunity, for non medical reasons. Weren’t you? I apologise if I misrepresented you

I can understand hesitancy for the current COVID vaccines available. I honestly can.
But we’re in the middle of a global pandemic. Time is not really on our side, I don’t think.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm sure you don't agree with going in the street to avoid a person who not even arms with of you, right?

I done it many, many, many times over the past year.

Its only RR if you are in a situation that serves a greater risk than someone you pass on the streets.

And yet they've found you still really do need to keep your distance outside. At six feet the risk is negligible. Up close, such as right next to each other, then the risk is more present. Still lower than indoors, but I have chronic fatigue issues as it is, and the chronic fatigue of covid is way worse than what I have, so I'll hop in the streets or wherever just to not take that chance.

I don't worry about the news or what people say unless the risk is the same for all people regardless the situation and risk factors.

Maybe it's because I play a lot of poker, but I lose better odds on a regular basis. And that's just money. Do I want to stake my life and health on something that looks more like a game of Russian Roulette? Not really. Risk especially my health with a roll of a dice? Why would I want to do that?

I just challenged masks and vaccines....I offered my opinion. Death rates, I'm a bit reserved on, even if we entered a conversation, it would be off since the numbers are different in each source so looked up.

Challenging masks is a part of the point I brought up early and America's rampant anti-intellectualism. The science is very conclusive on this. You might as well try to say antibiotics can't cure bacterial infections, or that washing your hands with soap and water is pointless.

But you're saying that people who have researched but decided not to take the vaccine aren't making a good decision despite their research

That is basically what I am saying because the risks with the vaccine and are minuscule whereas covid comes unfavorable odds and unknowns.

But can you prove its a fact that people "are" at risk being around people who have not taken the vaccine?

How do you think it has been getting transmitted before we had a vaccine? 130 million cases and you need it proven unvaccinated people spread the virus?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I question who is deciding to not take the shot, & why.

The one good excuse I know of is my friend, because she is pregnant and she's had some very nasty pregnancies before, one she nearly didn't survive. So I can very well understand her hesitation towards just about anything new she hasn't tried before for the time being, and her being content with continuing precautions and just avoiding people until the baby's delivered.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I done it many, many, many times over the past year.

I actually find that ridiculous. I never did ask anyone about it, though. Sometimes it throws me off so much walking or running that I near trip before I'm a block down the road hundreds of feet away from the person. How on earth can you get the virus just by being more than a hands with away from someone walking by you in a second.

I heard safe than sorry, but that just floors me. I know if I were like that, it would drive me bonkers... I mind as well stay home than look at people rudely, jump in traffic, and fuss about how they don't wear their mask (if I see that at all).

And yet they've found you still really do need to keep your distance outside. At six feet the risk is negligible. Up close, such as right next to each other, then the risk is more present. Still lower than indoors, but I have chronic fatigue issues as it is, and the chronic fatigue of covid is way worse than what I have, so I'll hop in the streets or wherever just to not take that chance.

If you're not near people (which there are rarely more than one person around in the middle of a small town where everyone has cars), then it shouldn't be a problem.

The risk is present for 2 seconds. I understand why you do so, I just find it ridiculous to do it. If I compared this to just being in public in general without taking the vaccine, I can see your frustration since that three second pass is a risk just as being in the store with two other people not near you-but in the same building.

Maybe it's because I play a lot of poker, but I lose better odds on a regular basis. And that's just money. Do I want to stake my life and health on something that looks more like a game of Russian Roulette? Not really. Risk especially my health with a roll of a dice? Why would I want to do that?

It depends on your circumstance, lifestyle, level of concern, and environment among other factors. I'd be more cautious if I were working in the hospital or doctor's office than I would in a store. It just depends on where I am at. But I'd never be that cautious as to go in the street to avoid passing someone who'd be a block down the road before you make twenty steps.

Challenging masks is a part of the point I brought up early and America's rampant anti-intellectualism. The science is very conclusive on this. You might as well try to say antibiotics can't cure bacterial infections, or that washing your hands with soap and water is pointless.

I think you're mixing up my opinions and what I know.

I know masks work; and, I find them only appropriate in certain circumstances.
I know the vaccine works; and, I find taking it appropriate in certain circumstances (lifestyle, overall health, environment, level of concern for self and/or loved ones)

Making a decision not aligned with majority opinion doesn't mean I deny the facts. The two are totally different. For example, denying taking medicine X for my illness because I have certain side affects I wouldn't do willy nilly. I do agree with the doctor it works and all of that, and I do have the right to determine "with my doctor" what else is best to take depending on the severity of the side affects.

I still agree with his medical knowledge...that doesn't mean by not taking it, I don't know what I'm talking about.

That is basically what I am saying because the risks with the vaccine and are minuscule whereas covid comes unfavorable odds and unknowns.

I feel you're completely 100% wrong on that assumption. People can make informed decisions after doing research. The point isn't to say "oh, they're correct...so I must take this vaccine," it should be more "oh, they are correct....let me determine if it is appropriate in MY situation to take this vaccine." If it is, take it. If it is not, you don't have to. It doesn't hurt either way but it doesn't mean either side is ignorant or rejecting the facts based on his decision alone.

I think there are a minority of people like myself and a few on this board are not taking the vaccine for circumstantial reasons and not because it doesn't work or whatever positive things they have to say about the vaccine. I know all medical treatments have some sort of side affects, but we don't know (just as any other treatment) until later on. So, it really depends on the individual but they're not ignorant for it because of their decisions. I can see if they worked in the hospital or maybe took care of a loved one with COVID and didn't take it, I can kinda see your point. Not taking it in and of itself isn't a big deal.

How do you think it has been getting transmitted before we had a vaccine? 130 million cases and you need it proven unvaccinated people spread the virus?

Maybe I need to rephrase it. Can you prove that there a 100% chance someone "will" catch the virus and have serious complications from it?

So far, they've been saying possible transmission are "risk factors"... not all contracts the virus just because they say 130 some odd cases.

Interesting note. Cases, least in the US, just means someone came to the hospital or doctors office, said they have COVID symptoms, and are marked down as a case. A nurses sadly told me that they have to mark just about any reference to COVID as a case. So, I don't go by cases.

The vaccine can prevent it, yes. That fact is fine but it doesn't mean I'll make a decision because my circumstances (lifestyle, environment, population, and what I do) doesn't call for the need of it.

You can have 2 billion people ideally die and more are considered cases and, but that doesn't excuse the decision is based on your circumstance, lifestyle, and environment. If I did everything science told me because other people did it, I wouldn't be more pulled by what they say and not my own brain. For example, COVID coming from your eye sand wearing two masks instead of one, I always think especially the former do they really think for themselves about the ridiculousness of it or whatever their scientist says they agree with.

If a doctor diagnosed me with cancer, I don't doubt his intelligence and specialty, of course, but I do get a second and third opinion. With the vaccine, the doctors on television are not my doctors. So, I and others have to/should access the situation appropriate to their circumstances. Scientist on television have to generalize but no doctor would say for you to take or do something because they told the public to do it as a whole.

I mean, the doctors told me I'm at risk of having Glaucoma, do I go out and get treatment for it because I'm at risk or does the level of risk and start for treatment determined by the circumstance and nature of the illness (that hasn't shown itself-hopefully not 'yet')?

 

[Revoltingest]

If the reasons lined up that it's in the doctor's favor not to take the vaccine, would he be at fault?

Hypothetical doctors are hard to discuss.
No reasoning or expertise is known.

 

[Revoltingest]

I assume there are many valid reasons a person may be well educated in the virus and decide not to take the vaccine. I can't think of a good example other than a doctor not taking the vaccine because of his lifestyle, circumstance, and well-being. A lot of people make decisions based on those factors.

Do you think there are valid reasons for not taking the vaccine if a said person has done their research and decides not to take it?

I don't know of any, having not searched for them.

Other than health reasons, could there be?

I don't know.
But I wouldn't assume that there are good reasons.

 

[Revoltingest]

The one good excuse I know of is my friend, because she is pregnant and she's had some very nasty pregnancies before, one she nearly didn't survive. So I can very well understand her hesitation towards just about anything new she hasn't tried before for the time being, and her being content with continuing precautions and just avoiding people until the baby's delivered.

I see that as a possible reason to delay vaccination.
But it's not a reason to never get the shot.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sorry, got buried with a ton of notifications.
Yes we can figure things out on our own. But since I don’t specialise in the immunology discipline of medicine I tend to go with expert consensus.
We do that on a daily basis even. Jesus
Whenever my work recommends I do something to comply with health and safety ordinates guess who’s opinion they’re going by. Hint, it’s not a layman on the internet.
Whenever we have snap lockdowns and mask mandates to stop the spread. Who do you think the government is (ideally) listening to? Hint. It’s not a layman on the internet.
We listen to experts on a daily basis. Even when you look at the ingredients of the food and drink you consume. Who do you think wrote that? Hint, it’s not a layman on the internet.
Christ sakes. Vaccines are just chemicals. We are chemicals. If I try I can make dihydrogen monoxide (water) sound scary if I wanted to. It’s why we don’t tend to rely on laymen. Spoiler alert they can’t assess scientific data correctly most of the time. Duh

But I'm talking about people who are not required to take the vaccine for work reasons or, say, taking care of someone with COVID.

Do you take advice from all experts you hear because they are experts without assessing what they are telling you is appropriate to your situation?

Well of course. Doctors can get things wrong. But if the second and third said you have cancer, isn’t it a bit egotistic not to think you may have cancer? That you know better than the experts, 3 seperate ones no less?

Yes. But my point is, don't take everything you hear just because they come from an expert.

If the doctors said I "do" have cancer, I'd get treatment. If they say I have risk of having cancer because 100 million people die from it, I'd ask the level of that risk and other factors involved before assuming other people's deaths have some influence on my well-being and whether I should seek treatment and what type.

Access to health services can affect rates, this is true. But can it really be responsible for what, 1.5 million preventable deaths in the US last year?
Seems a bit steep but okay.
I can also factor in the over reliance on antibiotics. But that too doesn’t account for the resurgences of preventable diseases we’ve seen.

But people can make coherent decisions based on these facts not because they are ignorant of them but because the conclusions they drawn from them aren't appropriate to their circumstance.

Social distancing is just one way we try to stop the spread. But it’s better to have herd immunity then we wouldn’t really have to anymore. We could go back to enjoying our family and friends out in public completely maskless. Is this not a worthwhile goal? Well I guess if you started an Etsy store for masks you wouldn’t think so. Hmm

I don't believe it's realistic. If you mean it by having everyone take the vaccine to ideally stop the spread, I'd disagree with that. When we were in lockdown, the virus didn't just disappear. I'm sure there were many people who had it, spread it to their families, and so forth. Its funny having lockdowns with time restraints as if the virus wakes up at 12 am and roams around and leaves at 9 am when people go to work. If anything, that probably did more harm than good.

Here it's pretty much normal despite the social distancing and masks. Businesses have different flexibility on masks depending on the nature of the business. All businesses have social distancing.

You seemed to actively support people’s decision to not have a vaccine that increases herd immunity, for non medical reasons. Weren’t you? I apologise if I misrepresented you

I can understand hesitancy for the current COVID vaccines available. I honestly can.
But we’re in the middle of a global pandemic. Time is not really on our side, I don’t think.

I do not support people's decision not to take the vaccine. How did you get that conclusion?

I social distance, wear masks, and go where I need to and stay home if I don't. The vaccine isn't appropriate to my lifestyle and circumstance, so I don't fret about it just because other people do or the situation of the globe. I've never been a "majority does X so I must do X." The more people who do X, the less I follow along. I don't know why that is. A bomb threat would probably be a bit different. The virus isn't a plague so it really depends on the circumstance.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't know of any, having not searched for them.

I don't know.
But I wouldn't assume that there are good reasons.

There probably are. The thing is, would pro-vaccinators accept and take that into consideration or would they tell that person they are wrong, ignorant, or so have you regardless the reason.

For me, I don't have medical reasons not to take the vaccine and I'm not in an environment or circumstance that would call for it. But I will be honest, it seems like people aren't thinking for themselves. If experts say the vaccine doesn't have side affect X but, because of my well-being, I could have side affect X, would I listen to the experts on television or go by my health and what "my" doctor says about it.

Using vaccine as an example given the topic.. .but this is for any treatment, vaccine, or medicine.

 

[SomeRandom]

But I'm talking about people who are not required to take the vaccine for work reasons or, say, taking care of someone with COVID.

Wait what? People taking care of COVID patients when they’re not vaccinated? Just how awful is the US health care system?
I feel like that’d be illegal here just by default. It’s like taking care of cancer patients without any health precautions. What idiot signed that off?

Do you take advice from all experts you hear because they are experts without assessing what they are telling you is appropriate to your situation?

if a health expert says hey, maybe you should wear a seat belt when you drive I tend to wear a seat belt. Or do you ignore all health directives from medical experts? Geez, ego trip much?
Do you stand in front of radiation because the experts say you shouldn’t? Do you refuse a hard hat on construction sites because an expert says you should wear one?
I agree that blind obedience is idiotic. But there are health directives that are equally as dumb not to follow. Or do you ignore health advice and eat fast food for every single meal too?
Just asking

Yes. But my point is, don't take everything you hear just because they come from an expert.

I don’t. But medical advice, I tend to listen to. Because I like to live. Don’t know about you. Maybe you favour living unhealthily and then dying. More power to you. I don’t care

If the doctors said I "do" have cancer, I'd get treatment. If they say I have risk of having cancer because 100 million people die from it, I'd ask the level of that risk and other factors involved before assuming other people's deaths have some influence on my well-being and whether I should seek treatment and what type.

Wait. If a doctor says to you, you should do X as it will increase the likelihood of everyone around you surviving and then you don’t do it like a jerk who clearly does not care about public safety? Is that what you’re telling me? Cos it sounds a bit selfish, ngl
Geez where’s your sense of social responsibility?

But people can make coherent decisions based on these facts not because they are ignorant of them but because the conclusions they drawn from them aren't appropriate to their circumstance.

People couldn’t even accept a lawful democratic defeat like adults.I saw it for myself.
Forgive me if I don’t hold such a high standard for the general population. Besides if you don’t think vaccines work, where are your credentials? Put up or shut up. You’re making the claim that they lack viability according to scientific parameters (I’m certainly not.) So put your money where your mouth is.

I don't believe it's realistic. If you mean it by having everyone take the vaccine to ideally stop the spread, I'd disagree with that. When we were in lockdown, the virus didn't just disappear. I'm sure there were many people who had it, spread it to their families, and so forth. Its funny having lockdowns with time restraints as if the virus wakes up at 12 am and roams around and leaves at 9 am when people go to work. If anything, that probably did more harm than good.

Seriously do you not know how viruses work? I’m genuinely trying not to be condescending but you’re making it hard for me if I’m honest.

Here it's pretty much normal despite the social distancing and masks. Businesses have different flexibility on masks depending on the nature of the business. All businesses have social distancing.

At the moment we’re not allowed to stand at pubs (bars?) Forgive me if I want the pain to end early.

I do not support people's decision not to take the vaccine. How did you get that conclusion?

Because you’re supporting such a decision in literally all your remarks. Tell me where you’re not supporting it. Please.

I social distance, wear masks, and go where I need to and stay home if I don't. The vaccine isn't appropriate to my lifestyle and circumstance, so I don't fret about it just because other people do or the situation of the globe. I've never been a "majority does X so I must do X." The more people who do X, the less I follow along. I don't know why that is. A bomb threat would probably be a bit different. The virus isn't a plague so it really depends on the circumstance.

I applaud your social awareness and responsibility

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Wait what? People taking care of COVID patients when they’re not vaccinated? Just how awful is the US health care system?
I feel like that’d be illegal here just by default. It’s like taking care of cancer patients without any health precautions. What idiot signed that off?

I can't figure how you got that from what I said. Honestly.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't take the vaccine or its inappropriate for situations such as where you work or taking care of someone with COVID.

I'm saying taking it or not should be dependent on your circumstance.

if a health expert says hey, maybe you should wear a seat belt when you drive I tend to wear a seat belt. Or do you ignore all health directives from medical experts? Geez, ego trip much?

Do you stand in front of radiation because the experts say you shouldn’t? Do you refuse a hard hat on construction sites because an expert says you should wear one?

I agree that blind obedience is idiotic. But there are health directives that are equally as dumb not to follow. Or do you ignore health advice and eat fast food for every single meal too?
Just asking

I can't compare the two. When you're by yourself in the car, wearing a seatbelt will prevent you from getting hurt IF you get into a car accident.

So, it depends on the circumstance.

If you're not driving or don't have a car, the "experts" can tell you whatever they want, and its true...that doesnt mean its appropriate to your circumstance.

Another thing I mentioned is you should never ever take any medicine or any medical treatment because experts say so... you should do so when talking to your own doctor and assessing your own well-being before doing anything.

No expert will tell you to take something because it's 100% effective and thousands of people are running to take it.

They'd say go to your doctor "if you feel you're concerned over X" since he knows what's best for you on an individual basis.

If you're not where radiation is present, it doesn't matter.

I don’t. But medical advice, I tend to listen to. Because I like to live. Don’t know about you. Maybe you favour living unhealthily and then dying. More power to you. I don’t care

Do you listen to it if it's not appropriate to your well-being and situation?

What you're saying is a blanketed statement.... "don't take the vaccine you're at risk of getting sick or else." It really does depend on the situation.

Wait. If a doctor says to you, you should do X as it will increase the likelihood of everyone around you surviving and then you don’t do it like a jerk who clearly does not care about public safety? Is that what you’re telling me? Cos it sounds a bit selfish, ngl
Geez where’s your sense of social responsibility?

That's not my comparison. I was talking about assessing your own situation or would you listen to the experts blind sighted.

If it's wear a mask, that's fine. Vaccine, no.

You're going off of probabilities.

A probability doesn't increase the likelihood to spread the virus.

Having the virus and not, say, social distancing increases the likelihood of spreading.

You can take the vaccine to help prevent getting it but not getting it isn't putting people at risk-it does make people scared cause they don't know who has it and who does not unless they have a mask or have the vaccine.

I suggest maybe take a break from this conversation.

You're assuming I don't care about others and it is a huge insult.

People couldn’t even accept a lawful democratic defeat like adults.I saw it for myself.

Forgive me if I don’t hold such a high standard for the general population. Besides if you don’t think vaccines work, where are your credentials? Put up or shut up. You’re making the claim that they lack viability according to scientific parameters (I’m certainly not.) So put your money where your mouth is.

I Did not say that vaccines do not work.

I literally said the opposite.

Stop with the insults!

Seriously do you not know how viruses work? I’m genuinely trying not to be condescending but you’re making it hard for me if I’m honest.

You are being condescending and insulting (per above).

I only know a little bit AND that does not mean I will take the vaccine just because I agree vaccines work and read the facts.

I don't listen to every person just because they are right.

At the moment we’re not allowed to stand at pubs (bars?) Forgive me if I want the pain to end early.

Okay... Why does that matter to me?

Because you’re supporting such a decision in literally all your remarks. Tell me where you’re not supporting it. Please.

I said " I " will not take the vaccine because it is my decision.

I said that it depends on circumstance, and I am not in that circumstance I need to take it.

It has nothing to do with what other people think. I honestly can careless.

I applaud your social awareness and responsibility

Thanks?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I just disagree with mandating taking the vaccine in order to go to these businesses. I know its the owner's personal decision, but I think it would backfire more than the mask protest issue.

So your objection is not that you would be excluded from some options, but that it may cost the entrepreneur?

I think the opposite is true. Businesses that are vaccinated only or have vaccinated only sections as some ballparks are planning, for example, will do better than those that have no such restrictions. I see it as analogous t smoking, and the claims when nonsmoking areas were first considered that it would hurt businesses, especially bars and restaurants. But that didn't happen.

I expect that establishments that cater to those not wanting to mix with the unvaccinated will attract the vaccinated majority, once again, just as hotels and car rental agencies that offered rooms and vehicles that hadn't been smoked in did fine.

Eventually, perhaps 9-12 months from now, the prevalence of the virus in the population will drop to the levels that herd immunity confers, and we won't care who is vaccinated or not, like with flu shots. I can't remember anybody ever asking me if I had had a flu shot or refusing to be with me if I hadn't.

But until then, like many others, I view the unvaccinated as the reservoir for the virus and the laboratory where new variants will be cooked up, and to be avoided.

When they say that a vaccine gives 90% immunity against disease, that doesn't tell you how likely you are to get it. If say 1 in 20 contacts between an infected individual and an unvaccinated leads to a new infection (or any other fraction), then you are five times more likely to become infected yourself five times as many people out there are presently infectious. I may have 90% protection after my vaccine, but 90% protection from 1 person out of 100 is a lot better than 90% protection from a room with 15 out of 100 infected - 15 times better.

Until we have general herd immunity, which may be six or more month after those of us wanting vaccines have received them, the unvaccinated are a risk to us all both as infectious source and a breeding ground for variants. I'll take local herd immunity if I can get it, meaning that everybody around me in whatever venue I'm patronizing is immunized. And I expect many others will feel the same. This isn't political or personal any more than wanting to avoid smokers is.

We're about 4 weeks from relaxing our pandemic standards (2nd shot in 2 weeks). At that time, we will begin visiting and entertaining in our homes again with small groups of vaccinated people, but not our unvaccinated friends. We all want to be among the vaccinated only. We hope the others will be as understanding of our concerns about being near them as they expect us to be about their concerns about the vaccine. And we will not enter any place of business that doesn't exclude or segregate the unvaccinated until we feel that there is herd immunity. I hope that there are enough more like us that entrepreneurs recognize that there is a niche for this kind of establishment and offer us a few choices of places to go, like the vegan and gluten-free restaurants that do a good business catering to a niche.

What's weird is, the rest of us aren't telling you guys here not to take the vaccine.

Why would you? The vaccinated are helping the unvaccinated in a way that they refuse to help others. As I alluded, if enough of us take the vaccine and the prevalence of active infections in the general population becomes so low that the risk of encountering an infected individual becomes low, you won't need to. We'll make you safe eventually.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

So your objection is not that you would be excluded from some options, but that it may cost the entrepreneur?

I think the opposite is true. Businesses that are vaccinated only or have vaccinated only sections as some ballparks are planning, for example, will do better than those that have no such restrictions. I see it as analogous t smoking, and the claims when nonsmoking areas were first considered that it would hurt businesses, especially bars and restaurants. But that didn't happen.

The first part, yes. It's not because I'd be excluded from options. It would bother me greatly but I can't change what businesses do.

I just think it would backfire. Just as the mask thing and the US Capitol. Though, I think this would be a whole lot worse.

I expect that establishments that cater to those not wanting to mix with the unvaccinated will attract the vaccinated majority, once again, just as hotels and car rental agencies that offered rooms and vehicles that hadn't been smoked in did fine.

Eventually, perhaps 9-12 months from now, the prevalence of the virus in the population will drop to the levels that herd immunity confers, and we won't care who is vaccinated or not, like with flu shots. I can't remember anybody ever asking me if I had had a flu shot or refusing to be with me if I hadn't.

To me it's like if one separated gay and straight people years ago insofar they thought gay people would transmit the AIDS virus (and so named after them because of it). Fear says a lot... I think this is masked by saying they are "concerned" for the wellbeing of those who are vaccinated but throw those who decide not to out the door hoping that the consequence will force them to get vaccinated.

The comparison isn't a good one. There are places people who smoke can go without being denied entry. If "all" businesses denied people entry because they were not vaccinated (sounds like we're animals or something) there's a bigger problem than just going six feet from the building to smoke a cigarettes' or putting a piece of cloth over one's face. Those are little compared to telling someone to get vaccinated shots----no matter how much they work and such.

That's exactly what its saying. It's "asking" people to get the vaccine and refusing to give services to people who choose not to.

But until then, like many others, I view the unvaccinated as the reservoir for the virus and the laboratory where new variants will be cooked up, and to be avoided.

Shrugs. I only think of that for myself if I was at high risk of spreading the virus but I don't concern myself with what if I had it. I can only spread if it I do have it, so people are arguing with me over not caring like them as if we all of the sudden wake up asymptomatic. It's a justified concern, but the insults aren't warranted.

presently

Until we have general herd immunity, which may be six or more month after those of us wanting vaccines have received them, the unvaccinated are a risk to us all both as infectious source and a breeding ground for variants. I'll take local herd immunity if I can get it, meaning that everybody around me in whatever venue I'm patronizing is immunized. And I expect many others will feel the same. This isn't political or personal any more than wanting to avoid smokers is.

Why don't you guys send us not vaccinated to our own island or concentration camps? (I'm being sarcastic on purpose)

We're about 4 weeks from relaxing our pandemic standards (2nd shot in 2 weeks). At that time, we will begin visiting and entertaining in our homes again with small groups of vaccinated people, but not our unvaccinated friends. We all want to be among the vaccinated only. We hope the others will be as understanding of our concerns about being near them as they expect us to be about their concerns about the vaccine. And we will not enter any place of business that doesn't exclude or segregate the unvaccinated until we feel that there is herd immunity. I hope that there are enough more like us that entrepreneurs recognize that there is a niche for this kind of establishment and offer us a few choices of places to go, like the vegan and gluten-free restaurants that do a good business catering to a niche.

Shrugs. That's you guys' choice.

Why would you? The vaccinated are helping the unvaccinated in a way that they refuse to help others. As I alluded, if enough of us take the vaccine and the prevalence of active infections in the general population becomes so low that the risk of encountering an infected individual becomes low, you won't need to. We'll make you safe eventually.

We're not telling you not to just because we're not taking it ourselves-that's the point.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I actually find that ridiculous.

Yes, I find you negligence of health and lack of concern for others equally ridiculous. Worse, actually, as you openly state you are not informed much on the subject but yet still try to act as if your opinion has equal weight to the scientists who have been tirelessly researching this virus for over a year now, and that you're just as informed as the rest and making equally informed decisions from the "same information."

It depends on your circumstance, lifestyle, level of concern, and environment among other factors.

That doesn't matter. Everyone faces an unknown with the virus. No one knows what it will do to them. They'll probably be fine. But roll a 4 and you get severely ill, roll a 5 and become chronically ill. That roll of the dice is basically what everyone who isnt in a risk group does when they contract covid.

Can you prove that there a 100% chance someone "will" catch the virus and have serious complications from it?

Show a single similar 100% and then we'll talk.
It can't be done. It's why I keep stating things like swapping drug needles and having unprotected sex. They aren't 100% guaranteed to end with you getting a disease.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I see that as a possible reason to delay vaccination.
But it's not a reason to never get the shot.

Yeah. She is waiting. Not putting it entirely off.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, I find you negligence of health and lack of concern for others equally ridiculous. Worse, actually, as you openly state you are not informed much on the subject but yet still try to act as if your opinion has equal weight to the scientists who have been tirelessly researching this virus for over a year now, and that you're just as informed as the rest and making equally informed decisions from the "same information."

It depends on the circumstance.

Okay.... but to expand this, there are those who have researched (and they could be doctors as well) and came away to not take the vaccine. So, appealing to ignorance doesn't help with this.

But no. I'm not in an environment or situation that I "am" putting people in danger.

That doesn't matter. Everyone faces an unknown with the virus. No one knows what it will do to them. They'll probably be fine. But roll a 4 and you get severely ill, roll a 5 and become chronically ill. That roll of the dice is basically what everyone who isnt in a risk group does when they contract covid.

Unknown...no one knows... probabilities ... that is a huge consideration for someone in well populated environments, are at higher risk, and so forth.

Do you "only" base your health decisions on whether the doctors (not your doctors?) say its safe and X many people have died?

I know that's a huge motivator, but for a probability, I'm curious.

Show a single similar 100% and then we'll talk.

It can't be done. It's why I keep stating things like swapping drug needles and having unprotected sex. They aren't 100% guaranteed to end with you getting a disease.

That's dodging my question. It's not meant to trick you into a unrealistic search-challenge. Give me logical reasoning that someone "will" catch the virus and have complications from it (edit) because they did not take the vaccine.

If we knew for certain, more people may take the vaccine. Though, I'd hope voluntarily without pushback if they still decide not to.

Nothing is 100% guaranteed.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Unknown...no one knows... probabilities ... that is a huge consideration for someone in well populated environments, are at higher risk, and so forth.

Live here or live in Indiana, the odds remain the same when around others. And rural parts too have been hit hard, with even the most sparsely populated areas in America being chocked with covid.
Everyone keeps saying they'll be ok. They keep saying they'll be fine. But they haven't been. This isn't an emotional issue like people want to make it. It's about odds. And when you have a high community transmission rate then other people are literally a threat and danger because covid is running rampant through your community. When the transmission rate is low, you still need to be careful because you don't know where people have been or who they have been around, and anyone you come into contact with may just be hours away from the onset of cough and fatigue.

Do you "only" base your health decisions on whether the doctors (not your doctors?) say its safe and X many people have died?

I try to base most of my decisions of numbers and statistics. Not just health. And I actually really don't trust doctors. I research everything they give me before I take it, and I'm not afraid to disagree if they are way off base.
But, whenever possible I resort to facts and the numbers behind them. It leaves less to chance and can turn gambling into calculated risks that pay off in the long run.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Live here or live in Indiana, the odds remain the same when around others. And rural parts too have been hit hard, with even the most sparsely populated areas in America being chocked with covid.

Everyone keeps saying they'll be ok. They keep saying they'll be fine. But they haven't been. This isn't an emotional issue like people want to make it. It's about odds. And when you have a high community transmission rate then other people are literally a threat and danger because covid is running rampant through your community. When the transmission rate is low, you still need to be careful because you don't know where people have been or who they have been around, and anyone you come into contact with may just be hours away from the onset of cough and fatigue.

How should people react? We have hotlines for those who find it hard to handle the COVID crisis. I feel neutral feeling or response is different than not caring. The association between not taking the vaccine (or wearing a mask even)=uncaring is a understandable connection but it isn't a fact. I would hope (and I would think) that anyone who doesn't take the vaccine and/or wear masks "depending on their circumstance" aren't in people's faces and touching all over people. In my town, only a few people I've heard caught COVID.

Of course I wouldn't hug up on people and if they are sick most certainly not. I just think that for many people "safe than sorry" causes panic and on one end its justified but on the other hand, it can cause trauma for the individual. The media doesn't really help with it.

Nothing is 100% guaranteed... just some risks of getting COVID is higher in some areas than others. I just don't want people to get hit by a car over it. Instead, I go on the grass and tell them to go by and continue my walk/run. They have a greater chance at getting hit by a car than catching COVID in that second they are near me.

So, safe than sorry is fine but I do think you (and others) can be overboard with it. Nothing wrong with that (it doesn't hurt anyone) but I can see how that would be projected on others-that's the issue.

I try to base most of my decisions of numbers and statistics. Not just health. And I actually really don't trust doctors. I research everything they give me before I take it, and I'm not afraid to disagree if they are way off base.

But, whenever possible I resort to facts and the numbers behind them. It leaves less to chance and can turn gambling into calculated risks that pay off in the long run.

True. It's good to keep yourself informed. I only looked up what the virus was, how it spread, how to avoid it, and what our governor says-our updates in the state... basically, so I get an idea of what they are talking about. There's probably a minority who are ignoring everything but I'd find that rare cause they'd face it once they go out the door so they mind as well look it up. Though I do respect their decision if they decide, say, not to take the vaccine or not to wear a mask knowing I am not them and since not everyone is political about this, I'm not sure of their circumstance that they would make decisions like that. The only way they are in danger to others is if they had the virus and they were around people so close that the transmission would be likely. Being in the same building, a person may catch it from touching on the counter or something unsanitary but not from a person if they are no where near you.

Since we touch things all the time, I can see wearing gloves would be a good idea but I don't see many people do it. Especially cashiers who handle money all the time. But they do wear masks. So.

 

[Revoltingest]

Since we touch things all the time, I can see wearing gloves would be a good idea but I don't see many people do it. Especially cashiers who handle money all the time. But they do wear masks. So.

Instead of wearing gloves, I'm careful to not touch
entry points for viruses, eg, eyes. Washing hands
is useful.