"...but intelligent people believe in God" Analysis, Discussion, and Debate

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I am arguing that the modern generation to me does not have sheeple beliefs and that died out a few decades back when people defaulted to their traditional family denomination. I certainly don't see much of that with the modern generation. I think the argument above is very weak for modern western people. As I said I might have thought the above argument was stronger like 75 years ago

I agree that young people are doing better than their grandparents.

In think more in modern time is not so much a matter of faith as the best understanding. People today look at evidence and argumentation and not just 'I was told so'.

Belief in a god is an act of faith - believing in a particular god even more so.

Intelligent people can also believe in some type of God concept because they see intelligence in the universe.

Where do you see intelligence in the universe apart from on the surface of earth?

Really, we know why there is a universe at all, how life and DNA forms, what consciousness is, why observation should effect quantum behavior, etc. etc...

No, we don't. Those are unanswered questions

Those are origins problems, the last hurdle, and we have naturalistic candidate hypotheses for the origins of the universe and life. Consciousness is another matter.

Were you going to suggest that the fact of consciousness and the apparent intractability of the problem of why it is possible is a reason to believe in a god? If you are, keep in mind that a god cannot be the source of consciousness. It cannot have created consciousness from an unconscious state. Consciousness has to precede and transcend any conscious agent, even a god

Personally I believe Consciousness/God/Brahman is fundamental and the universe is a derivative of the fundamental as mystics and modern post-materialist scientists are telling us. And the reason behind those beliefs is not that I was indoctrinated at a young age.

I also have intuitions that I can neither shake nor defend.

You are describing what some philosophers call idealistic monism: consciousness is the first and only substance, and material reality is a byproduct of mind. George Berkeley is the philosopher best known for advocating that.

This can be compared to materialistic monism (mind is an epiphenomenon of matter / energy, the only substance - think Hobbes), neutral monism (mind and matter are both derivative of a prior, more fundamental substance), and dualism a la Descartes (mind and matter are two distinct substances, neither derived from the other).

Many intelligent people believe in God for reasons not presented in the video.

That's undoubtedly true, but the reasons given in the video are certainly relevant in many if not most cases of god belief.

There are also cognitive biases at play, things like patternicity (apohenia, or "the human tendency to perceive meaningful patterns within random data" if you like 50 dollar words) and agenticity, a default position evolution gifted the beasts and man for it's survival advantage. Better to attribute the rustling leaf sound to a conscious agent and be wrong than to not do so and be wrong in that way.

Throw in the child's proclivity to trust and believe his parents and to accede to a paternalistic authority figure, his relative lack of critical thinking skills,and his initial willingness to engage in magical thinking, and you have a creature ready to be manipulated and exploited by a priesthood.

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But let's take a step back: Nobody is arguing that intelligent people don't believe in God, or that a god belief defines one as unintelligent. The purpose of the video, in my opinion, is to show that the god belief is not derived from that intelligence, but from another way of thinking. It's an indirect rebuttal to the idea that it is intelligent to believe in a god, or that intelligence brings one to a god belief. If it weren't, why do intelligent people do it?

DarkMatter explains that the belief is not due to that intelligence, but despite it.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

And why exactly should I care about what you get from my comment? I think I know my own thoughts better than you do.

But please go on and tell me all about this "ridiculous claim" in the video, then proceed to act like you can read my mind, because that is super rational.

Is that a "no" answer to my question?

And I made no claim to be a mind reader.

Can you have a discussion without it becoming emotional? Not in my experience.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Is that a "no" answer to my question?

And I made no claim to be a mind reader.

Can you have a discussion without it becoming emotional? Not in my experience.

Don't get all sappy on me now.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I think some here in this thread are displaying a double standard toward religion, when it comes to religions claims they willing to employ a great level of skepticism but when comes to something that sounds agreeable to them suddenly that level of skepticism vanishes.

So now you're the mind reader. You know that when somebody finds something agreeable, that they must have forsaken their skepticism and critical thinking skills and just mindlessly agreed on faith.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

So now you're the mind reader. You know that when somebody finds something agreeable, that they must have forsaken their skepticism and critical thinking skills and just mindlessly agreed on faith.

"So now you're the mind reader."

Yes, I can read minds, but so far only one mind, my own, but I am working hard to grow that ability.

 

[wizanda]

None of them claimed or showed evidence to prove the existence of a deity.

"The Mind of God is like cosmic music resonating throughout 11 dimensional hyperspace."
- Dr Michio Kaku

“I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind..."
- Albert Einstein

“My brain is only a receiver, in the Universe there is a core from which we obtain knowledge, strength and inspiration. I have not penetrated into the secrets of this core, but I know that it exists.”
- Nikola Tesla

“He who thinks half-heartedly will not believe in God; but he who really thinks has to believe in God.”
- Isaac Newton

 

[George-ananda]

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The purpose of the video, in my opinion, is to show that the god belief is not derived from that intelligence, but from another way of thinking.

And that is where I disagree with the video. I believe in a God concept and it has nothing to do with the indoctrinated faith that I had rejected. My belief came from my objective study of spiritual phenomena and those who I have come to believe have delved deepest into the ultimate nature of reality.

DarkMatter explains that the belief is not due to that intelligence, but despite it.

I think DarkMatter is trying to restrict the God concept to the ancient one of previous centuries. And although he tries to avoid the subject, many intelligent people today believe in a God concept for very different and intelligent reasons. Now, you and I might debate about these God concepts until we are blue in the face, but no one should deny that there are intelligent people on both sides of the debate.

 

[columbus]

I would like to see people of a variety of viewpoints analyze and discuss this video by DarkMatter2525.

Perhaps the staff would be so kind as to sticky this post somewhere for easy reference and quoting. I am finding it extremely useful in a wide variety of contexts.
Tom

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I would like to see people of a variety of viewpoints analyze and discuss this video by DarkMatter2525.

I'm a fan of his work.

The video also ignores an important stage of growth, adolescence, where part of what is going on is the questioning and even rejection of what parents and the community have asserted.

Indeed. It was early tween years for me when I realized my morality was given to me by utter hypocrites. When it dawned on me my loved ones and peers and role models could lie to me, it gave me the opportunity to see bible stories in a new light.

Religious use these techniques because they work. Multi-level marketing uses similar techniques, I suspect politics too.

Yup.

Mother Teresa spending her whole life serviing the poor

It was most depressing to discover she never really did all that much and caused more harm than good.

interfaith of all kinds including a pope who gathered members of different religions together.

I also get the impression a lot of those by the Vatican involve, "You guys are going to hell, but can you just stop killing our congregations? That'd be great."

I can attest that that is incorrect. He speaks to me, as did DarkMatter.

And me, and hell, I'm a theist.

The voice of the commentator is ridiculing against any belief and the look on the faces especially the eyes of any believers is evil.

Not really. Given the examples he gave, he's clearly discussing how evangelizing the Abrahamics can be done by smart people.

It's all one sided and geared towards fitting the producer's personal views and has no supporting evidence presented.

What evidence would you prefer?

That people will do weird/evil things and believe obvious falsehoods?

That certain types of theists base their morality on authority and rules instead of something more complex and abstract?

Belief in God is part of human nature - Oxford study

That was a newspaper, not a scholarly article, plus "page not found".

Being human: Religion: Bound to believe?

I would have to subscribe to see this article.

Intelligent people, compared to whom?

Compared to the gullible, I guess.

The First occurrence of the number 66 in a Verse: 66 souls

Didn't others debunk this in your thread?

There are a number of adult conversions.

It is my experience, both online and off, that the most childish of theists tend to be the converts. It's like a kid coming home from preschool, throwing a badly spelled, badly drawn card to you in your face and acting like it's the most awesome thing ever to have graced the planet.

 

[pearl]

It is my experience, both online and off, that the most childish of theists tend to be the converts. It's like a kid coming home from preschool, throwing a badly spelled, badly drawn card to you in your face and acting like it's the most awesome thing ever to have graced the planet.

As one of those 'adult converts' myself I would have to disagree. I was raised a Methodist, and converted to the Catholic church, after considerable biblical and historical study.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

"The Mind of God is like cosmic music resonating throughout 11 dimensional hyperspace."
- Dr Michio Kaku

He uses a metaphor to describe the mind of god as he thought of it. This makes no claim that he could prove that any gods exist.

“I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind..."
- Albert Einstein

The only difference between natural pantheism and atheism is that pantheism thinks of the universe as a deity and atheism does not due to a difference in definition of the word deity.. Einstein still saw your god as being just as ridiculous as I do.

“My brain is only a receiver, in the Universe there is a core from which we obtain knowledge, strength and inspiration. I have not penetrated into the secrets of this core, but I know that it exists.”
- Nikola Tesla

He never proves that this "core" exists and never claims it is a god.

“He who thinks half-heartedly will not believe in God; but he who really thinks has to believe in God.”
- Isaac Newton

Yep he thought that, but this is not him proving anything about god existing or claiming that he has with science.

 

[columbus]

As one of those 'adult converts' myself I would have to disagree. I was raised a Methodist, and converted to the Catholic church, after considerable biblical and historical study.

The fact that you consider this a big change is solid evidence that you were strongly indoctrinated with the Christian basics.
Tom

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

I do find it interesting how the video relies so heavily on the assumption that the ridiculous claim has to be wrong.

What if the ridiculous claim is actually true?

IMO, being true or not is actually irrelevant.
Some of the methods used to reinforce the claim are simply wrong.

Ridiculous: deserving or inviting derision or mockery; absurd.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

Hats off to @CogentPhilosopher and @It Aint Necessarily So

You have both raised excellent points and have shown how deeply ridiculous thinking is embedded in people's minds right here on RF. Well done.

Thank you very much.

 

[wizanda]

Einstein still saw your god as being just as ridiculous as I do.

Since you're not aware of my own first hand experience within my NDE, bit of an assumptive statement.

The only difference between natural pantheism and atheism is that pantheism thinks of the universe as a deity and atheism does not due to a difference in definition of the word deity..

There are loads of differences, pantheism is explaining how reality, and the creator are made of the same substance...

Atheism is just a belief on if there is a creator; nothing to do with realities design.

Einstein was conscious of the orderly mathematical principles within the reality we've got around us, and used math, and science to establish this, not made up superstition.

He uses a metaphor to describe the mind of god as he thought of it.

It isn't just a metaphor, it is a picture of his understanding of the quantum physics reality we exist within; that they know there is an energy source beyond the 11th dimension.

The fact he has theories that the core is sustaining reality at a quantum level, is something I've experienced, and thus can logically conclude he is talking from science or maths, not just a metaphor.

This makes no claim that he could prove that any gods exist.

Science isn't done on just one result, it is based on multiple sources saying the same; then we can logically see the data together.

He never proves that this "core" exists and never claims it is a god.

The Singularity being called God is often from an anthropomorphized term; personally prefer the CPU, as it is mathematically logical to an infinite precision.

Yep he thought that, but this is not him proving anything about god existing or claiming that he has with science.

Newton made odd recorded claims that indicate God; yet nothing as a quote to establish his knowledge of the mathematical reality we exist within.

See everywhere we look there is the Fibonacci sequence interwoven into the fabric of reality, some say the golden spiral is the finger print of God (CPU).

There is no way to study at that level of physics, without noticing the perfect equations, and wondering why.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

Since you're not aware of my own first hand experience within my NDE, bit of an assumptive statement.

Doesn't matter. NDEs are explained by science.

There are loads of differences, pantheism is explaining how reality, and the creator are made of the same substance...

Atheism is just a belief on if there is a creator; nothing to do with realities design.

I said natural pantheism, not pantheism in general.

Einstein was conscious of the orderly mathematical principles within the reality we've got around us, and used math, and science to establish this, not made up superstition.

We would expect orderly mathematical principles in a universe with no deities or a deistic deity.

A universe with a theistic deity could be orderly or disorderly since the universe would not necessarily have to be clockwork.

It isn't just a metaphor, it is a picture of his understanding of the quantum physics reality we exist within; that they know there is an energy source beyond the 11th dimension.

The fact he has theories that the core is sustaining reality at a quantum level, is something I've experienced, and thus can logically conclude he is talking from science or maths, not just a metaphor.[/quote]

Citation to where he says this please. Projecting your ideas onto someone else will get you nowhere in a hurry.

Science isn't done on just one result, it is based on multiple sources saying the same; then we can logically see the data together.

I know, but I asked for where he claimed that science proved a deity and you did not provide it.

Newton made odd recorded claims that indicate God; yet nothing as a quote to establish his knowledge of the mathematical reality we exist within.

I know Newton was a theist or deist, he still did not prove that a deity existed.

See everywhere we look there is the Fibonacci sequence interwoven into the fabric of reality, some say the golden spiral is the finger print of God (CPU).

We would expect repeating patterns in a clockwork universe whether a deity created it or not. It lends no credence one way or the other.

There is no way to study at that level of physics, without noticing the perfect equations, and wondering why.

So I guess you think that atheist physicists do not exist?

The equations are made by humans, numbers are human inventions.

 

[Searching1981]

I would like to see people of a variety of viewpoints analyze and discuss this video by DarkMatter2525.

Well, I didn't watch the whole video, I'm a Dog and Dark Matter is Red (2525 = 5 like another Dog Bruce Springsteen wrote in 41 shots = 5).

I don't know you guys want to be smart, that's fine but a lot of People will prey on that insecurity. All I can write is when the People's Republic of America takes away your Faith it's too hard to fight back against their tyranny; all you want to do is eek out life to an old age and die slow in a retirement home fearing you are going to be nothing one day. That's just not a way to live but that is the point, fear death to the point you do not live. Death occurs in life not the afterlife.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

Well, I didn't watch the whole video, I'm a Dog and Dark Matter is Red (2525 = 5 like another Dog Bruce Springsteen wrote in 41 shots = 5).

I don't know you guys want to be smart, that's fine but a lot of People will prey on that insecurity. All I can write is when the People's Republic of America takes away your Faith it's too hard to fight back against their tyranny; all you want to do is eek out life to an old age and die slow in a retirement home fearing you are going to be nothing one day. That's just not a way to live but that is the point, fear death to the point you do not live. Death occurs in life not the afterlife.

If you did not watch the video then you are in no position to discuss it.

Please leave.

 

[Searching1981]

If you did not watch the video then you are in no position to discuss it.

Please leave.

That's a common problem with atheist these days, they are presented a challenging view and in response they want you to go away. I saw up to the point when Marc (the guy with the beard and glasses but why is facial hair and blindness associated with intellect?) is a kid again and being indoctrinated into religion. The video felt and looked too much like Soviet Propaganda to watch the whole thing.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

That's a common problem with atheist these days, they are presented a challenging view and in response they want you to go away. I saw up to the point when Marc (the guy with the beard and glasses but why is facial hair and blindness associated with intellect?) is a kid again and being indoctrinated into religion. The video felt and looked too much like Soviet Propaganda to watch the whole thing.

Coming from the person who refused to watch the video?

Your view is not in the least challenging, it is a bunch of half-formed unbased assertions.

If you want to create a thread where we can talk about them I will gladly do so. But this thread is about a video that you refused to watch so please do not try to derail the thread.