By Faith. Why?

[shunyadragon]

This does not answer my question.

If you believe that the Biblical genealogies, which are numerous, and run from Adam to Jesus, are full of myth and error, then it should be possible for you to be specific in your criticism. Therefore, I ask again, Where does the myth end and the true history begin? Or, do you not believe that Israel has a real history as a nation?

The real history of our physical existence begins with the sciences of Geology and archaeology, and yes there is archaeological evidence of the history of Israel.

Problem with the Biblical genealologies: First the time frame is far too short to be a real geneaologies of humanity. Humanity has been around for hundreds of thousands of years at least. Second there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of Adam and Eve. It is part of the Creation myth believed by the ancient cultures of the Middle East.

You have not responded to the problems of the mythologies of Creation, Adam and Eve and Noah's flood.

Please respond to the following: Your posts are often confusing mixing concepts of what is objective and subjective by simple definitions in the English language. Hint: The word objective comes from the ability to confirm an 'object' by predictable verifiable physical evidence.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Again::Hint: The word objective comes from the ability to confirm an 'object' by predictable verifiable physical evidence.

You are failing to respond to my posts in an understanding of the basics of the English language.

Really?

In philosophy, there is a distinction made between 'inductive process' and 'deductive process'. In the former case, one builds towards an objective conclusion by the accumulation of evidence. In deduction, by contrast, one has knowledge of the whole, and is able to deduce particulars from the whole.

By claiming that science is objective, what you really mean is that science employs methods in gathering evidence that (hopefully) are reliable. But the body of knowledge about 'the universe and everything' is not known by science, and as a result it builds its knowledge 'bit by bit'. The theories derived from observations are constantly changing because the total body of knowledge is growing. Old theories no longer fit the broader conclusions reached by different scientific disciplines.

 

[Redemptionsong]

The real history of our physical existence begins with the sciences of Geology and archaeology, and yes there is archaeological evidence of the history of Israel.

Problem with the Biblical genealologies: First the time frame is far too short to be a real geneaologies of humanity. Humanity has been around for hundreds of thousands of years at least. Second there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of Adam and Eve. It is part of the Creation myth believed by the ancient cultures of the Middle East.

You have not responded to the problems of the mythologies of Creation, Adam and Eve and Noah's flood.

Please respond to the following: Your posts are often confusing mixing concepts of what is objective and subjective by simple definitions in the English language. Hint: The word objective comes from the ability to confirm an 'object' by predictable verifiable physical evidence.

First, I want to know whether Israel has a real history, with real people.

When do you think the real history of Israel began?

 

[Subduction Zone]

The only truly objective perspective comes from God, as we've already established. If man's observations had been truly objective then his conclusions would have been correct from the start, but as we know 'science' has been in a state of transition and adjustment from the beginning. All we can say about the progress of man in understanding God's creation is that it is gradual and far from complete.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. How do you know if anything is from God? And no, objective evidence, though usually repeatable does not tell us everything. The scientific method is a problem solving method that allows us to accumulate knowledge. Most great scientists acknowledge that they only added to the work of others that preceded them. So of course science advances over time. What makes science work is the use of testable hypotheses. That way even when scientists are wrong they still advance by learning from their errors.

If the Bible is not the objective revelation of Almighty God, then it must, like science, be subject to error and inconsistency. This l do not see.

Then you have not seriously and honestly studied the Bible. Genesis is mythical. Exodus appears to be so too. At the very least it is closer to Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter than a history of Lincoln.

Let's take, as an example, the genealogies of the Bible. These are often overlooked, but they provide an interesting insight into the mind of God (lMO). You must believe these genealogies to be erroneous, because, according to your understanding, ancient religion is riddled with myth and legend. So, tell me where in the unbroken genealogy of mankind [Luke 3] we can say, for sure, that myth gave way to an accurate record of the generations of Adam.

.

Hard to say. What does it matter? Let's say a friend of yours has a genealogy and he claims to be able to trace his lineage all the way to the first King of the US, Napoleon Bonaparte. Right away you know that something is wrong. Napoleon wasn't our first king. We never had a king. In the same way we had no first man. Just as we don't need to know the full line of ancestors for our friend, there is no need to know the full line back to whenever when we know that there was no Adam.

 

[Subduction Zone]

First, I want to know whether Israel has a real history, with real people.

When do you think the real history of Israel began?

Hard to say. Why even ask?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Sorry, but this is nonsense. How do you know if anything is from God? And no, objective evidence, though usually repeatable does not tell us everything. The scientific method is a problem solving method that allows us to accumulate knowledge. Most great scientists acknowledge that they only added to the work of others that preceded them. So of course science advances over time. What makes science work is the use of testable hypotheses. That way even when scientists are wrong they still advance by learning from their errors.



Then you have not seriously and honestly studied the Bible. Genesis is mythical. Exodus appears to be so too. At the very least it is closer to Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter than a history of Lincoln.


.

Hard to say. What does it matter? Let's say a friend of yours has a genealogy and he claims to be able to trace his lineage all the way to the first King of the US, Napoleon Bonaparte. Right away you know that something is wrong. Napoleon wasn't our first king. We never had a king. In the same way we had no first man. Just as we don't need to know the full line of ancestors for our friend, there is no need to know the full line back to whenever when we know that there was no Adam.

You say, 'The scientific method is a problem solving method that allows us to accumulate knowledge'. Well, at last, I can agree with you on something. This means that science is not deductive, because it 'accumulates knowledge' by problem solving.

Does it always solve the problems? Clearly not.

Aside from this, you're still not answering my question. There is no point in discussing 'myths' if you cannot first tell me what is real history. All I'm asking is that you tell me when the history of the nation of Israel becomes factual.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The argument of the Declaration of Independence is with respect to the pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, which is kind of abated when one is killed in the womb. The pursuit of the Democratic party is to give access to abortion to the time of birth, and past in some cases where health care is stopped. As for the abortion industry, it was started by a woman trying to reduce the number of black babies, and apparently there have been 63 million abortions since Roe versus Wade, and 40% have been minority babies. The women who voted for Biden were looking for free abortions on demand, and an end to their student debt, all apparently with no constitutional provisions. The men who voted for Biden, well, who knows, maybe they related to his condition.

So what?

The Declaration of Independence is not a legal document. And the alleged racist motives of Sanger are not well supported and even if true it is only a red herring.

Do you have a valid argument against abortion?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You say, 'The scientific method is a problem solving method that allows us to accumulate knowledge'. Well, at last, I can agree with you on something. This means that science is not deductive, because it 'accumulates knowledge' by problem solving.

Does it always solve the problems? Clearly not.

Aside from this, you're still not answering my question. There is no point in discussing 'myths' if you cannot first tell me what is real history. All I'm asking is that you tell me when the history of the nation of Israel becomes factual.

Most of that is just a "So what?" argument. Even if your claims are true you are still wrong. It does not change the fact that you are using logical fallacies to support a bogus beluef.

For example, pointing out that science does not solve all problems appears to indicate that you are jumping to a hasty conclusion. It is a variation of the black and white fallacy. Just because we can't use science to solve every problem does not mean that we cannot solve some problems. The claim that the Bible is literally true is a claim that science can and has solved. It isn't. If you want to know how we know this you could ask @shunyadragon or me.

And you need to justify your demand of the need to know history. Foolish demands are not valid just because a person made them.

 

[shunyadragon]

First, I want to know whether Israel has a real history, with real people.

When do you think the real history of Israel began?

There is no specific date by the evidence for what would be called the real history of Israel, but archaeology research has found that sometime in the Neolithic over ten thousand years ago with the first definable pastoral settlements occurred around Ain Mallāha and Jericho and the early towns and cities like what is called Jericho were found by ~7000 BCE. Probably around this time there was a small kingdom that became what is called Israel. Over time by the Bronze Age beyond this there developed walled cities and northern and Southern tribes first dominated by Canaanite and Pheonician Kingdoms thwn over time became an independent Kingdom some times two the North and South.

The oldest primitive Hebrew text dates from the 9th century as a variation of the Pheonician writing

 

[2ndpillar]

So what?

The Declaration of Independence is not a legal document. And the alleged racist motives of Sanger are not well supported and even if true it is only a red herring.

Do you have a valid argument against abortion?

So you are into "legal documents"? Well, the Supreme Court just passed a written legal document that says the states can criminalize abortion, and many have done so. Now if you are among the "sovereign citizen" group, you can make up your own rules, but beware, the road pirates, the po po, are coming, and they may break out your window and take you to jail. The racist consequences of Sanger are on the heads of the Progressives, as they carry out her imperatives. They should have taken the Progressives to jail for breaking the "legal" law and protesting in front of the Supreme Court Justice's homes.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So you are into "legal documents"? Well, the Supreme Court just passed a written legal document that says the states can criminalize abortion, and many have done so. Now if you are among the "sovereign citizen" group, you can make up your own rules, but beware, the road pirates, the po po, are coming, and they may break out your window and take you to jail. The racist consequences of Sanger are on the heads of the Progressives, as they carry out her imperatives. They should have taken the Progressives to jail for breaking the "legal" law and protesting in front of the Supreme Court Justice's homes.

No, I am for a legal cure to this immoral act. The Democrats should keep hammering the Republicans in Congress over this. Though odds are that they will limit an attempt to a national fix until before the election. Republicans will be forced to either support it or if done soon enough before the election face the probability of losing their seats in congress.

 

[2ndpillar]

There is no specific date by the evidence for what would be called the real history of Israel, but archaeology research has found that sometime in the Neolithic over ten thousand years ago with the first definable pastoral settlements occurred around Ain Mallāha and Jericho and the early towns and cities like what is called Jericho were found by ~7000 BCE. Probably around this time there was a small kingdom that became what is called Israel. Over time by the Bronze Age beyond this there developed walled cities and northern and Southern tribes first dominated by Canaanite and Pheonician Kingdoms thwn over time became an independent Kingdom some times two the North and South.

The oldest primitive Hebrew text dates from the 9th century as a variation of the Pheonician writing

The oldest text written in old Hebrew was a quote from Numbers written on a silver scroll, dated to around 700 B.C., buried in a tomb, under a fallen ceiling slab. It was found by an archeologist working near the valley of Hinnom in Jerusalem.

 

[2ndpillar]

No, I am for a legal cure to this immoral act. The Democrats should keep hammering the Republicans in Congress over this. Though odds are that they will limit an attempt to a national fix until before the election. Republicans will be forced to either support it or if done soon enough before the election face the probability of losing their seats in congress.

There is no guarantee, that the judgment of God will not fall upon the world before the next election, due to the immorality of killing the unborn, or killing the living, as being done in China with regard to harvesting organs and blood from Uyghurs, Falun Gong, and kidnapped young students who happened to have a desired blood type, to keep the ruling leftist CCP elite class in China alive. One leg of the Chinese Project 150, which was to keep their elites alive until the age of 150 years old, was the use of transplants, which requires immune suppression drugs, which is why now all the old elites are dying since December. They have little immunity to disease, which includes covid. The communist are brothers to the Progressives, such as emphasized by Bernie Sanders who had his wedding honeymoon in communist Russia. If the women didn't get their free abortions, and the students didn't get loan relief, and the teacher's unions are losing traction, and loosing membership, and the unions in general are not holding ground, and parents are incensed with the Progressives, then who is going to vote for your Progressive child grooming Democrats? Are people moving to blue California, New York, or Illinois, or are they bankrupt states with collapsed retirement funds, most likely because they voted for Progressive abortion supporting politicians, who didn't actually support law enforcement, and undermined existing legal laws? I have little "faith" in what you call a "legal cure". Probably which includes stacking the Supreme Court, or changing the number of court members, which is highly improbable with the conservatives holding the House. I think the "left", which includes China and Russia, are on their way down, and quickly. A quick grasp for breath, and then death and destruction. While the WEC Progressives eat steak and fly private jets, they have just determined that the school children can eat bugs and meal worms for their diet. Keep in mind that the Progressives in Davos, wouldn't allow the use of EVs, apparently, they didn't want to get stranded in the snow. Some required that none of their pilots to have had any covid shots. Apparently, pilots can also die from strokes due to the covid vaccine. The hypocrisy of the Progressives, as with those with "faith" in the false prophet Paul, have no bounds.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There is no guarantee, that the judgment of God will not fall upon the world before the next election, due to the immorality of killing the unborn, or killing the living, as being done in China with regard to harvesting organs and blood from Uyghurs, Falun Gong, and kidnapped young students who happened to have a desired blood type, to keep the ruling leftist CCP elite class in China alive. One leg of the Chinese Project 150, which was to keep their elites alive until the age of 150 years old, was the use of transplants, which requires immune suppression drugs, which is why now all the old elites are dying since December. They have little immunity to disease, which includes covid. The communist are brothers to the Progressives, such as emphasized by Bernie Sanders who had his wedding honeymoon in communist Russia. If the women didn't get their free abortions, and the students didn't get loan relief, and the teacher's unions are losing traction, and loosing membership, and the unions in general are not holding ground, and parents are incensed with the Progressives, then who is going to vote for your Progressive child grooming Democrats? Are people moving to blue California, New York, or Illinois, or are they bankrupt states with collapsed retirement funds, most likely because they voted for Progressive abortion supporting politicians, who didn't actually support law enforcement, and undermined existing legal laws? I have little "faith" in what you call a "legal cure". Probably which includes stacking the Supreme Court, or changing the number of court members, which is highly improbable with the conservatives holding the House. I think the "left", which includes China and Russia, are on their way down, and quickly. A quick grasp for breath, and then death and destruction. While the WEC Progressives eat steak and fly private jets, they have just determined that the school children can eat bugs and meal worms for their diet. Keep in mind that the Progressives in Davos, wouldn't allow the use of EVs, apparently, they didn't want to get stranded in the snow. Some required that none of their pilots to have had any covid shots. Apparently, pilots can also die from strokes due to the covid vaccine. The hypocrisy of the Progressives, as with those with "faith" in the false prophet Paul, have no bounds.

Sorry, but why do you think abortion is immoral? The Bible appears to not think of it as taking a human life. As a result I cannot figure out why you have this apparently immoral belief of your own.

 

[metis]

When do you think the real history of Israel began?

It's basically a continuum, so it's impossible to draw an arbitrary line and say "They started here".

I'm currently reading a book on the archaeology of the Celts, and much the same problem can be found there.

 

[2ndpillar]

Sorry, but why do you think abortion is immoral? The Bible appears to not think of it as taking a human life. As a result I cannot figure out why you have this apparently immoral belief of your own.

The Israelites who sacrificed their children to Bel, which today is the god of convenience, were quickly rounded up by Assyria, and sold into slavery. The same will happen again, but to the nations/Gentiles, per Joel 3:5-8 at the time of the "day of the LORD", the day of judgment (Joel 2:31-32). And the Commandment of God is: "thou shall not kill". Take it or leave it.

 

[Redemptionsong]

It's basically a continuum, so it's impossible to draw an arbitrary line and say "They started here".

I'm currently reading a book on the archaeology of the Celts, and much the same problem can be found there.

This is exactly my point.

From what the Bible says, it becomes apparent that God has bound heaven and earth together. The spiritual and the earthly are woven together in the history of his people. Those who have tried to create a history of Israel without the prophetic element have failed to provide a convincing history. Yet we know that the nation of lsrael exists today, and must have a legitimate history.

One could say that this is God applying his signature to an 'unbroken' scripture!

 

[Redemptionsong]

Most of that is just a "So what?" argument. Even if your claims are true you are still wrong. It does not change the fact that you are using logical fallacies to support a bogus beluef.

For example, pointing out that science does not solve all problems appears to indicate that you are jumping to a hasty conclusion. It is a variation of the black and white fallacy. Just because we can't use science to solve every problem does not mean that we cannot solve some problems. The claim that the Bible is literally true is a claim that science can and has solved. It isn't. If you want to know how we know this you could ask @shunyadragon or me.

And you need to justify your demand of the need to know history. Foolish demands are not valid just because a person made them.

You have missed the point.

The Bible cannot be dismissed as a myth if it contains a history of a people who still exist today. The history of this people is documented in the Bible with great care, and archaeology has not disproved the Biblical account. In fact, archaeology is the friend of the Bible, and continues to prove the Biblical record to be accurate.

The claims made by Shunydragon that Israel appeared out of nowhere in the land of Canaan are without any foundation. The Canaanite tribes existed well before the lsraelites arrived.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You have missed the point.

The Bible cannot be dismissed as a myth if it contains a history of a people who still exist today. The history of this people is documented in the Bible with great care, and archaeology has not disproved the Biblical account. In fact, archaeology is the friend of the Bible, and continues to prove the Biblical record to be accurate.

The claims made by Shunydragon that Israel appeared out of nowhere in the land of Canaan are without any foundation. The Canaanite tribes existed well before the lsraelites arrived.

Your argument is flawed. Yes, there are a people that it is based upon, but that has nothing to do with why large parts are known, not "dismissed" to be myth. We know that there were never only two people, we know that there was never a worldwide flood or even one that threatened humanity. We know that the Exodus story as told is not true. The list goes on and on. If you want to claim that the Bible is reliable you have a much heavier burden of proof then saying "Well there are still Jews in the world.".

The Bible has some history. That is not denied. It also has a lot of myth in it. That cannot be denied either.

 

[Subduction Zone]

This is exactly my point.

From what the Bible says, it becomes apparent that God has bound heaven and earth together. The spiritual and the earthly are woven together in the history of his people. Those who have tried to create a history of Israel without the prophetic element have failed to provide a convincing history. Yet we know that the nation of lsrael exists today, and must have a legitimate history.

One could say that this is God applying his signature to an 'unbroken' scripture!

Please show us anywhere that the prophetic element is needed. I am totally unaware of the being shown by any of the Jewish history. And you might need to check to see when some of the books of the Bible were writen.