By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian...

[Kenny]

Part of the "evidence" is that my entire life changed. I believe for the better. I am not perfect, however, and still ask for forgiveness of my sins. But I do my best to avoid actions that would be considered sins. Just to let you know. Yes, my entire life changed. I appreciate your posts. Certainly not comparing myself with Paul, but his life changed also once Christ met him. I appreciate him also.

Likewise for me in all aspects. My life was completely changed and He saved my marriage! I was opening a new tri-county business equipment location for the company I was working for and being successful at it when, after three years, lost all desire to do so and went into the ministry.

I’m not perfect by any means but, “the good work He began in me, He is well able to complete it”!

 

[blü 2]

Nothing you say makes any sense when you try to explain what the Bible means. I wasn’t asking any of this but when you read it what does it say?

Taking the 'bible' here to mean the NT, it's a set of writings from, it's thought, the second half of the first century CE, about a person whom none of the authors had ever seen, let alone met. It appears that a cult within Judaism had formed around this person, who, judging from the early appearance and persistence of the claim, appears to have been crucified by the Romans. Evidence of that cult is based not only on what Paul wrote about having persecuted them, but a small number of quotes he included apparently from sources earlier than him eg the "kenosis hymn" Philippians 2:6-11. (One school of scholarly thought says the letters of Paul are forgeries by followers of Marcion in the 2nd century CE, but I doubt any forger could invent a character as strikingly odd as Paul.)

All NT authors draw on the Tanakh, both for the claim that Jesus was a messiah, and that Jesus fulfilled 'prophecies' in the Tanakh. As to that, I observe that no practicing Jew in Judea or Galilee had any reason to think that ─ given an historical Jesus ─ Jesus was a messiah, since he was never a civil, military or religious leader of the Jews, and was never anointed by the Jewish priesthood, which is, as you know, what 'messiah' means. Nor, in those apocalyptic times, did he say he'd get rid of the Romans and restore Jewish political independence, perhaps the major political movement of the day. As you also know, the NT is ambiguous as to whether the "Son of Man" who would establish God's kingdom on earth, was Jesus or not. Tradition (so I read) said that Enoch was the Son of Man and he was the one who'd return from being with God back to earth to perform the task.

And so on. The NT is a kit of historical documents, edited to accord with the early politics of the Christian church, and is to be read accordingly. As to what it means, it means the figure of the crucified and resurrected Jesus is the focus of his followers' aspirations. As to what those aspirations were, or should have been, they were apparently to draw people to a formula by which they, by becoming followers, would obtain "eternal life" ─ a naive desire I've never found a reason to share.

 

[ElishaElijah]

All NT authors draw on the Tanakh, both for the claim that Jesus was a messiah, and that Jesus fulfilled 'prophecies' in the Tanakh. As to that, I observe that no practicing Jew in Judea or Galilee had any reason to think that ─ given an historical Jesus ─ Jesus was a messiah, since he was never a civil, military or religious leader of the Jews, and was never anointed by the Jewish priesthood, which is, as you know, what 'messiah' means. Nor, in those apocalyptic times, did he say he'd get rid of the Romans and restore Jewish political independence, perhaps the major political movement of the day. As you also know, the NT is ambiguous as to whether the "Son of Man" who would establish God's kingdom on earth, was Jesus or not. Tradition (so I read) said that Enoch was the Son of Man and he was the one who'd return from being with God back to earth to perform the task.

Apparently you are wrong because the practicing Jews did in fact recognize that Jesus Christ was and is the Messiah that they were waiting for… “We found the Messiah” was the comment. Who is this that the wind and waves obey Him? He was a Pharisee who believes but kept it quiet due to what some other religious leaders thought of Jesus due to their jealousy. Herod killed a whole city of children trying to wipe out the King of Kings, Who do the people say I am asked Jesus, You are the Christ was the answer and revealed not by flesh and blood but by the Father,
”Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16‬:‭17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
I understand why skeptics cannot see or understand who Jesus is from this and what @YoursTrue has shared in his testimony because this revelation and understanding comes from the Father and the Holy Spirit.
The whole church consisted of practicing Jews of 120 at the start and thousands added at Pentecost.
One of these very Jews wrote this:
”Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.“
‭‭I Peter‬ ‭1‬:‭10‬-‭12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[blü 2]

Apparently you are wrong because the practicing Jews did in fact recognize that Jesus Christ was and is the Messiah that they were waiting for… “We found the Messiah” was the comment.

It seems clear that Christianity rose as a cult within Judaism, so it seems fair to say some practicing Jews were the founders of Christianity. But according to Paul they were a small minority. Jesus, according to the stories, only arrives in Jerusalem, the center of Judaism, at the very last, On what basis, specifically, should any Jew of that era think this blow-in for Passover was any kind of messiah? He didn't even promote Jewish political independence, the big issue of the times.

Herod killed a whole city of children trying to wipe out the King of Kings

So the NT says, but somehow no one else seems to have noticed what would even by the standards of those rough times be a monstrous atrocity.

Who do the people say I am asked Jesus, You are the Christ was the answer and revealed not by flesh and blood but by the Father,
”Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16‬:‭17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

That's not very persuasive from where I sit. None of the NT authors met, saw, heard a historical Jesus. All those tales are oral traditions, and I recall from my homework on the shenachies of Scotland when I was working on a smallish history project there how oral transmission always "improves" the report, both so as to be more pleasing or interesting to the hearer, and to omit or amend parts that the narrator doesn't favor. You can see an example of that as Mark's miserable Jesus in the earliest crucifixion report progresses to become John's cool in-charge Jesus at the end.

I understand why skeptics cannot see or understand who Jesus is from this and what @YoursTrue has shared in his testimony because this revelation and understanding comes from the Father and the Holy Spirit.

God never appears, says or does, so it seems fair to say that the only manner in which [he]'s known to exist is as a concept, notion, thing imagined in an individual brain, very usually as the result of acculturation.

 

[Polymath257]

Part of the "evidence" is that my entire life changed. I believe for the better. I am not perfect, however, and still ask for forgiveness of my sins. But I do my best to avoid actions that would be considered sins. Just to let you know. Yes, my entire life changed. I appreciate your posts. Certainly not comparing myself with Paul, but his life changed also once Christ met him. I appreciate him also.

And other people have had lives changed for the better in other ways. That doesn't mean their new belief system is true. It only means that it serves to motivate them. And people can be motivated by falsehoods and even have 'better lives' because of them.

MY life was significantly changed for the better when I gave up belief in a supernatural. Is that evidence that no supernatural exists?

Hint: no, it isn't.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

And other people have had lives changed for the better in other ways. That doesn't mean their new belief system is true. It only means that it serves to motivate them. And people can be motivated by falsehoods and even have 'better lives' because of them.

MY life was significantly changed for the better when I gave up belief in a supernatural. Is that evidence that no supernatural exists?

Hint: no, it isn't.

Well said.

My life was significantly changed for the better when I gave up my belief in the biblical God and let go of the guilt, shame, and disappointment that were associated with it. It was a gradual process of healing, but my emotional well-being and mental health significantly improved after I finally let it all go. I can honestly say that disavowing my beliefs was one of the best decisions I've ever made for myself. While I have no regrets, I wish I had done it years ago.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

God never appears, says or does, so it seems fair to say that the only manner in which [he]'s known to exist is as a concept, notion, thing imagined in an individual brain, very usually as the result of acculturation.

There are former Christians like myself who diligently sought God for years and dedicated their lives to him through prayer, worship, ministries, and Bible study, only to end up empty-handed, heartbroken, and disillusioned. I never felt peace in my life, as other Christians claimed to feel it in theirs. I didn't feel the presence of God as other Christians claimed to. I felt so confused, angry, and hopeless. I played church in the dire hope that I'd start to feel something—anything that indicated to me that God is real and that he cares about me. I didn't feel peace and joy in my life until after I renounced my belief in God and left Christianity. I finally experienced peace and freedom from emotional bondage. I never felt either one during all the years I was a Christian, despite years of sincere prayer, reading and studying the Bible, genuine devotion to serving God, and serving God in church ministries and as an evangelism team leader. I merely went through the motions and played church. I appeared to be a joyful Christian on the outside, but on the inside, I was so bereft of hope, joy, and inner peace. I was hurting and suffering, and no one knew about my misery other than my husband. I'm not exaggerating when I say that being a Christian was a nightmare for me (read my prior post here). I'm truly relieved to be free of Christianity, and I have no desire whatsoever to ever return to it.

 

[metis]

...not to mention that archaeology tends to support the history of the Bible.

By chance, do you have a subscription to BAR?

 

[metis]

Yes… liberalism is an end-time prophetical reality.

The NT was formulated on "liberalism".

 

[ElishaElijah]

The NT was formulated on "liberalism".

I’d agree with you if there weren’t any grocery stores, hospitals, doctors, nurses or government services. People should pay for these services.
When God supernaturally provides healing, food should not be charged money for these. When we share in the ministry of Jesus Christ it should be voluntary giving not forced. This is NT.
Liberalism isn’t voluntary it’s forced and a perversion of the NT.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Hi, Kenny. Here's how I see certain things. As I have often stated, I did not always believe there is a God. I did not know Him, of course. A radio preacher was preaching and took phone calls. I needed God but didn't know how to reach Him. Or who He was or how to live. So I asked him how can I believe in God? He replied that I need faith. And I said but I don't believe in God. So he said, and I will never forget his words... "Faith is a gift of the spirit. Only God can give you this gift." So I thought, I'm not getting anywhere with this preacher.
But!! After that call I remember praying for the first time in years..."oh God, if you're there give me this gift of faith." And...He did.

As I explained in my previous post (#865), I sought to connect with God for forty years, but I never found him. I learned the hard way that there was no personal relationship with him or Jesus when I was a Christian. In fact, there was nothing but a constant feeling of hopelessness and despair that I felt during the four decades that I genuinely believed in them. I often heard other Christians profess to feel God's presence in their lives and claim to have a personal relationship with him, but I experienced nothing of the sort. After a while of hearing this, I began to suspect that they were simply acting as if they felt God's presence as I did and were playing church in the hope that they might feel it someday. I suspected, and still do, that their emotions were manipulated by other Christians or while attending church services and prayer meetings. And to validate my suspicion, my husband, who is a Christian, has admitted to me that it's possible his emotions were manipulated during church services, but he misinterpreted it as feeling God's presence. He said these services were designed to elicit strong emotions from the congregation. It is typically accomplished through praise music as well as preaching and prayer.

 

[YoursTrue]

And other people have had lives changed for the better in other ways. That doesn't mean their new belief system is true. It only means that it serves to motivate them. And people can be motivated by falsehoods and even have 'better lives' because of them.

MY life was significantly changed for the better when I gave up belief in a supernatural. Is that evidence that no supernatural exists?

Hint: no, it isn't.

Exactly. None of us can speak for everybody. Your change could have been different in essence from my change

 

[YoursTrue]

As I explained in my previous post (#865), I sought to connect with God for forty years, but I never found him. I learned the hard way that there was no personal relationship with him or Jesus when I was a Christian. In fact, there was nothing but a constant feeling of hopelessness and despair that I felt during the four decades that I genuinely believed in them. I often heard other Christians profess to feel God's presence in their lives and claim to have a personal relationship with him, but I experienced nothing of the sort. After a while of hearing this, I began to suspect that they were simply acting as if they felt God's presence as I did and were playing church in the hope that they might feel it someday. I suspected, and still do, that their emotions were manipulated by other Christians or while attending church services and prayer meetings. And to validate my suspicion, my husband, who is a Christian, has admitted to me that it's possible his emotions were manipulated during church services, but he misinterpreted it as feeling God's presence. He said these services were designed to elicit strong emotions from the congregation. It is typically accomplished through praise music as well as preaching and prayer.

I looked at various religions when I was floating, shall we say... didn't believe in God. None of them made sense. It's almost like someone looking at Einstein's theory of relativity equation and saying, "What?" And scratching his head due to no one explaining anything except the bare basics.

 

[Polymath257]

Exactly. None of us can speak for everybody. Your change could have been different in essence from my change

My point is that *neither* change is evidence that the beliefs are true.

 

[ElishaElijah]

My point is that *neither* change is evidence that the beliefs are true.

Well, the change happens and you have your idea as well, all of the sudden after years of being trapped in addiction we cry out to God and He answers, delivers us and you say it was what? We can think our way out of it? Boy that would be something

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I looked at various religions when I was floating, shall we say... didn't believe in God. None of them made sense. It's almost like someone looking at Einstein's theory of relativity equation and saying, "What?" And scratching his head due to no one explaining anything except the bare basics.

I was anti-religious for a while after I renounced my Christian faith because of all the years of negativity I experienced when I was a Christian. I was still feeling it when I first joined RF, but being part of this diverse online community had a significant impact on my decision to practice Wicca and druidry.

But beforehand, I had a short-lived interest in the Baha'i Faith after reading some posts about it, but upon further observation, I could see that its beliefs are very similar to those of Christianity, so I rejected it. It wasn't long after this that I came across some posts about Wicca and other pagan religions that piqued my interest. So I started to research Wicca, and I felt drawn to it. To make a long story short, being a Wiccan has been a very positive experience for me spiritually, and it has helped me heal emotionally. It inspired me to look into other pagan religions, which led me to polytheism and eventually to druidry. I practice spiritualism as well, but my decision was influenced by the spiritual guidance and personal example of my close friend and mentor.

I have no qualms in saying that I'm grateful to be free from what I consider to be the entrapment of Christianity because it was a dreadful way of life for me. I truly believe that being a Christian can be detrimental to a person's mental health and emotional well-being. It certainly was for mine, and it was for the many other former Christians I know. To be quite honest, renouncing my Christian faith and belief in God has brought me a lot of comfort because I am no longer scared of what I believe to be the fearmongering tactics of Christianity, such as being afraid and feeling shame for allegedly sinning against God, fear of his wrath, and fear of going to hell. I can say without a second thought that being a Christian was a living nightmare for me, whereas being a Wiccan and druid has been liberating and a very positive experience. It's better for my mental health and emotional well-being. My life is far less stressful than it was when I was a Christian. I take it one day at a time, and I'm not gung-ho about Wicca, druidry, or spiritualism. I keep my beliefs in perspective.

It was a gradual process of detoxing from a lifetime of Christian indoctrination, but I've finally experienced inner peace in my life, which is something I never experienced as a Christian. I learned to let go of the fears I had, such as fearing God, fearing sinning against God, and my fear of going to hell. And once I did that, my mental health and emotional well-being significantly improved. I was deeply indoctrinated in Christianity, so it was difficult for me to be freed of it. I felt trapped in it, so I was shackled in emotional bondage to it for the majority of my life. Christianity was a prison for me. I felt like I was imprisoned, but only my prison cell door was always open, and it took me a long time to realize that I could leave whenever I wanted to. I never once felt "freedom in Christ" or genuine peace in my life as a Christian, as other Christians claimed to experience in theirs. So I freed myself from the indoctrination that I had been subjected to after spending the majority of my life trapped in it. I feel no more shame for allegedly sinning against God or for allowing myself to be guilt-tripped by Christians accusing me of being a sinner, and I no longer fear any alleged wrath or judgment from God or fear going to hell.

As a Wiccan and druid, I don't feel pressured to obey or appease any particular god, nor do I feel threatened by any god. Other than saving myself from abuse when I was a teenager, I cannot think of anything more empowering than finally understanding that I don't have to believe in the biblical God or follow Christianity or any other deity or religion in order to feel emotionally whole or make moral decisions in my life. I maintain a rational perspective on my present spiritual beliefs so as to avoid repeating these mistakes. I'm well aware of the potential emotional downfalls I could face from overly trusting in spiritual beliefs or in any god (or other deities). My beliefs are important to me, but not to the extent that I rely on them or that I feel like I can't make a moral decision without them. I don't regret my decision to renounce my belief in God and faith in Jesus, as well as leaving Christianity, but I wish that I had found the strength to do so years ago rather than holding onto the false hope and trust that I had in God. It would have been much better for me if I had.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Probably because we actually read the Bible and know the Author. But all you’ve done so far is take someone else’s interpretation.
I asked YOU what those verses meant to you and you failed to answer.
Talking to you is like this: John baked a chocolate cake and 5 people had a piece of cake and it was delicious.
Do you think the 5’people liked the cake?
Your answer- John is mean and prove he exists and baked the cake, scholars say he changed the recipe.

But you do not "know the author". That is a mere belief of yours that you are too afraid to test properly. As the saying goes, if you can't show it you don't know it.

And please, no false attacks upon others. Your error is treating the Bible as if it was without error. We know that is not the case. And yes, I can show it.

 

[ElishaElijah]

But you do not "know the author".

That’s like saying I don’t know my wife, a ridiculous comment on your part.

 

[ElishaElijah]

We know that is not the case. And yes, I can show it.

Who is “we” legion?

 

[YoursTrue]

My point is that *neither* change is evidence that the beliefs are true

Test trials are done for pharmaceuticals. Those that pass the scientific tests of evaluating effectiveness are approved by authorities. Yet -- sometimes they work in the tests, and sometimes they don't. And sometimes placebos are just as effective as the drug. I believe our bodies are too amazing to have come about without the workings (I'm going to use the word mechanisms) coming from a higher source. That's the way I see it now. How that relates to God to various individuals is a personal experience or decision. So -- my experience is obviously not everybody's experience. In other words, however a person reacts to an unobserved event by others, it is still personal.