By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian...

[walt]

Within the context of Ecc 12:7, I believe that the word spirit means the soul.
So, after the physical body dies and returns to the ground the soul returns to God.

That is essentially what Baha'is believe, that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attains the presence of God.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.”
(Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157)

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 155-158

I do not believe that we turn into a spirit. We are not a physical body that turns into a spirit.
We are a spirit (a soul) that is housed in a physical body while we are living on earth.
After we die, the soul will be housed in a spiritual body.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.”
(Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157)

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 155-158

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” (Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194)

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 193-196

- and the breath of life goes back to God who gave it
- and the life-giving breath returns to God.
- The breath of our life goes back to God, who gave it to us.
- the spirit-breath returns to God who breathed it, let us remember our Creator.
- The spirit returns to God, who first breathed it.

Genesis 2:7 KJ21
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

According to the verse above, man became a living soul when God gave man life (breathed life into man).
So the soul is the breath of life that goes back to God.

I do not know if the Bible explains that, but the Baha'i Writings explain that.

The Bahai Writings say that we (our soul) goes to the spiritual world when we die.
We will continue to think, since it is the soul that is responsible for our thought process.
The soul works through the brain while we are living in a physical body, but the soul will work through another mechanism after we die and have a spiritual body.

Wherever the Bible says the soul can die it means that such a soul will not attain to eternal life, which is defined by Jesus:

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Eternal life does not refer to our physical bodies continuing to exist forever, it refers to souls that will exist forever with the knowledge of God and Jesus Christ.

All physical bodies will ultimately die because they are mortal, but no soul can die because the soul is immortal.

Soul Cannot Die
The Scripture says the spirit, or soul, cannot be annihilated. Though the body may die, the spirit will live on. Death, therefore is not the end of conscious life. It is the separation of the body and the spirit. The spirit, however, lives on in another realm. The body is only the temporary residence of humans.

Jesus said.
Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Matthew 10:28).

Destroy has the idea of punish, not annihilate. The destruction of the soul means separation from the life of God. Though living, the soul of the unbeliever has no connection whatsoever to God.

Can the Spirit, or Soul, Be Destroyed?

The Bible teaches that humans are made up of both body and spirit. Life begins when the two are united, and life ends when the two are separated. Death Of The

www.blueletterbible.org

Thank You, I was wanting to do something a little different this time, to consider the words in each scripture as valuable, one scripture at a time.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 is translated in different Bibles with these different words: "spirit" "breath of life" "life-giving breath" "breath of our life"
"spirit-breath returns to God who breathed it" "The spirit returns to God, who first breathed it"

 

[metis]

I believe that is true but random changes are not going to bring about evolution.

We know random changes do take place as geneticist are in full agreement on.

Have you not noticed that in the last million years hominids haven't changed much?

If an Australopithecine from 3 million years ago walked into your church, (s)he would get a lot of attention.

 

[walt]

American Standard Version
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; In that very day his thoughts perish. -Psalm 146:4

- His breath goeth forth,
- he returneth to his earth;
- In that day his thoughts perish.

In that day his thoughts perish,
If our thoughts perish, would it matter where we are going?

 

[Trailblazer]

American Standard Version
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; In that very day his thoughts perish. -Psalm 146:4

- His breath goeth forth,
- he returneth to his earth;
- In that day his thoughts perish.

In that day his thoughts perish,
If our thoughts perish, would it matter where we are going?

I think it is important to read the entire chapter in order to understand what Psalm 146:4 means.
Verse 4 is not referring to our thoughts, it is referring to his thoughts.
Verse 4 says in that very day his thoughts perish. His is referring verse 3. His = princes, the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Thoughts of any man about what we should do will perish, so we are not to put our trust or hope in any man, we are only to put our trust and hope in the Lord God.

Psalm 146
21st Century King James Version

146 Praise ye the Lord. Praise the Lord, O my soul.
2 While I live will I praise the Lord: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the Lord his God:
6 Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever:
7 Which executeth judgment for the oppressed: which giveth food to the hungry. The Lord looseth the prisoners:
8 The Lord openeth the eyes of the blind: the Lord raiseth them that are bowed down: the Lord loveth the righteous:
9 The Lord preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down.
10 The Lord shall reign for ever, even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the Lord.

Psalms 146:3 meaning​

Trusting human leaders can prove to be a misguided endeavor, as even the mightiest among us are frail and ultimately subject to death. The psalmist reminds us of the futility in relying on "princes" or "the son of man," emphasizing that they lack the ability to provide true help or salvation. This warning is crucial for believers, as mortal beings are temporary, their thoughts and plans cease to exist upon death, reinforcing the necessity of placing our hope in the eternal God. This resonates with the notion that our ultimate trust should not revolve around transient human rulers, but rather the everlasting Lord who possesses the power and promise of salvation.

In the context of Psalms 146:3, the psalmist urges the faithful to redirect their confidence from fallible people to the Creator, who has established the heavens and the earth. Such a shift underscores a foundational theme of faith: champions may fall, but God remains steadfast and unwavering. Therefore, the challenge remains clear: do not place your trust in the transitory, but anchor your faith in the everlasting truth of God's promises.

Psalms 146:3 meaning | TheBibleSays.com

A brief explanation of the meaning of Psalms 146:3

thebiblesays.com

 

[walt]

Verse 4 is not referring to our thoughts, it is referring to his thoughts.

Thank you for noticing that and correcting me. Doesn't the scripture explain three things? His breath goeth forth, He returns to the earth, In that day his thoughts parish.

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; In that very day his thoughts perish. -Psalm 146:4

Why would the scripture explain He returns to his earth? in that very day his thoughts perish?
Most people don't apply the words "returns to his earth" they say People go to heaven or hell after death.
Or "in that very day his thoughts perish" People say we continue to think In heaven or hell.

 

[walt]

I think it is important to read the entire chapter in order to understand what Psalm 146:4 means.
Verse 4 is not referring to our thoughts, it is referring to his thoughts.
Verse 4 says in that very day his thoughts perish. His is referring verse 3. His = princes, the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Thoughts of any man about what we should do will perish, so we are not to put our trust or hope in any man, we are only to put our trust and hope in the Lord God.

Psalm 146
21st Century King James Version

146 Praise ye the Lord. Praise the Lord, O my soul.
2 While I live will I praise the Lord: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the Lord his God:
6 Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever:
7 Which executeth judgment for the oppressed: which giveth food to the hungry. The Lord looseth the prisoners:
8 The Lord openeth the eyes of the blind: the Lord raiseth them that are bowed down: the Lord loveth the righteous:
9 The Lord preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down.
10 The Lord shall reign for ever, even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the Lord.

Psalms 146:3 meaning​

Trusting human leaders can prove to be a misguided endeavor, as even the mightiest among us are frail and ultimately subject to death. The psalmist reminds us of the futility in relying on "princes" or "the son of man," emphasizing that they lack the ability to provide true help or salvation. This warning is crucial for believers, as mortal beings are temporary, their thoughts and plans cease to exist upon death, reinforcing the necessity of placing our hope in the eternal God. This resonates with the notion that our ultimate trust should not revolve around transient human rulers, but rather the everlasting Lord who possesses the power and promise of salvation.

In the context of Psalms 146:3, the psalmist urges the faithful to redirect their confidence from fallible people to the Creator, who has established the heavens and the earth. Such a shift underscores a foundational theme of faith: champions may fall, but God remains steadfast and unwavering. Therefore, the challenge remains clear: do not place your trust in the transitory, but anchor your faith in the everlasting truth of God's promises.

Psalms 146:3 meaning | TheBibleSays.com

A brief explanation of the meaning of Psalms 146:3

thebiblesays.com

Very nice explanation of things.

 

[Trailblazer]

Thank you for noticing that and correcting me. Doesn't the scripture explain three things? His breath goeth forth, He returns to the earth, In that day his thoughts parish.

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; In that very day his thoughts perish. -Psalm 146:4

Why would the scripture explain He returns to his earth? in that very day his thoughts perish?
Most people don't apply the words "returns to his earth" they say People go to heaven or hell after death.
Or "in that very day his thoughts perish" People say we continue to think In heaven or hell.

I think that the following translations of that verse are easier to understand.

ERV People die and are buried. Then all their plans to help are gone.
EASY When they die, they return to the ground. On that day, their plans come to an end.

When people die their physical body is buried and returns to the earth.
Then all their plans to help us who are still living on earth are gone.

~~~~~~~~~~
After the physical body dies the spirit (soul) returns to God in heaven.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Since it is the spirit (soul) that is responsible for the thought process, our thoughts will not perish after we die.
We will have a spiritual body and continue to think in heaven.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If an Australopithecine from 3 million years ago walked into your church, (s)he would get a lot of attention.

I was thinking more long the line of Homo erectus. The reason I call that the creationist missing link is because that is where they start to argue rather strongly whether it was an "ape" or whether it was a "man". In fact Duane Gish, of the Gish Gallop, at different times called it "100% man" and at another time "100% ape". It does not get much more transitional than that.

Homo erectus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[walt]

ERV People die and are buried. Then all their plans to help are gone.
EASY When they die, they return to the ground. On that day, their plans come to an end.

If plans are gone or come to an end, what does it matter where you are going?

 

[walt]

After the physical body dies the spirit (soul) returns to God in heaven.

The word spirit in this verse also means "breath" God breathed, It actually does not mean the word "soul"

"Soul" is an entirely different word.

 

[Trailblazer]

If plans are gone or come to an end, what does it matter where you are going?

I said: When people die their physical body is buried and returns to the earth.
Then all their plans to help us who are still living on earth are gone.

Who are the people who had plans to help us? They are the people who are referenced in verse 3:

3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

The whole point of Psalms 146 is that it is not the "plans" of any man that matter. We should only to put our trust and hope in the Lord God. That is why I said the following in the following post:

Thoughts of any man about what we should do will perish, so we are not to put our trust or hope in any man, we are only to put our trust and hope in the Lord God.

 

[YoursTrue]

Thank You, I was wanting to do something a little different this time, to consider the words in each scripture as valuable, one scripture at a time.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 is translated in different Bibles with these different words: "spirit" "breath of life" "life-giving breath" "breath of our life"
"spirit-breath returns to God who breathed it" "The spirit returns to God, who first breathed it"

Yes, so the translations, while understandable to some, do say "spirit," "breath of life," "life-giving breath," among other terms and while some might figure spirit means the person, other translations of Ecc. 12:7 do not suggest that the spirit means the person. Thanks for that.

 

[walt]

Since it is the spirit (soul) that is responsible for the thought process, our thoughts will not perish after we die.
We will have a spiritual body and continue to think in heaven.

I understand your reasoning, and there is many people that will agree with you. The Bible starts with the book of Genesis, from the earliest time in the Old Testament. Does the Old Testament explain the "soul" living on at death?

Why would the Bible explain a different way of thinking in the very beginning?
By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.” -Genesis 3:19 NIV

Why does the Bible even say: until you return to the ground?
Dust you are and to dust you will return.?

 

[walt]

• All have the same breath/spirit, humans and animals.
• All have the same fate.
• All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20

 

[Trailblazer]

The word spirit in this verse also means "breath" God breathed, It actually does not mean the word "soul"

"Soul" is an entirely different word.

I assume that you are referring to the following verse:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Genesis 2:7-9 King James Version (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

What is a living soul in the Bible

— Genesis 2:7 (with notes added) Here and "all through Scripture" a "living soul" denotes a "living person". This is because, as Brevard Childs writes, in the biblical view, a person "does not have a soul, but is a soul".
Soul in the Bible - Wikipedia

What does and man became a living soul mean

Man became a living soul when life entered him through God's breath. The Hebrew word translated “being” or “soul” in English Bibles is nephesh. This word very simply means a living, breathing creature. The Brown-Driver-Brigg's Hebrew Lexicon translates it as “that which breathes, living being, creature.”
Man Becomes a Living Being—Part 2 - Life, Hope & Truth

So we have established that the soul is the person.

Ecc 12:7 says that the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
I believe that the soul is the spirit that will return to God since the words soul and spirit mean the same thing in this verse.

If you do not believe that the soul is the spirit, what do you think that the soul is?
If you do not believe that the spirit is the soul, what do you think that the spirit is?

 

[Trailblazer]

I understand your reasoning, and there is many people that will agree with you. The Bible starts with the book of Genesis, from the earliest time in the Old Testament. Does the Old Testament explain the "soul" living on at death?

I do not know the entire Old Testament so I don't know if it explains the "soul" living on at death, but the OT does say that the spirit lives on after death.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Why would the Bible explain a different way of thinking in the very beginning?
By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.” -Genesis 3:19 NIV

Genesis 3:19 is referring to the physical body. It does not refer to the soul (spirit).

Why does the Bible even say: until you return to the ground?

God was telling Adam that by the sweat of his brow he will eat his food until he dies and returns to the ground.

Dust you are and to dust you will return.?

God was telling Adam that his body was created from the dust and his body will return to dust when he dies.

What is the meaning behind ashes to ashes, dust to dust?

The quote "dust to dust, ashes to ashes" is a well-known phrase derived from the Christian Bible, specifically from the Book of Common Prayer's funeral service. The phrase is typically used to refer to the cycle of life and death, and suggests that all living things ultimately return to the earth from which they came. Aug 17, 2021
What does the quote 'dust to dust, ashes to ashes' mean?

 

[Trailblazer]

• All have the same breath/spirit, humans and animals.
• All have the same fate.
• All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20

Ecclesiastes 3
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

To me those verses mean that the physical bodies of all animals (both man and beasts) will die and return to dust after they die.

 

[YoursTrue]

Well, not to divert too much but I think it's "on subject" to an extent, according to what I read (and remember), Catholics believe that Mary not only was a virgin for her whole life (while married to Joseph also), but rose to heaven in her body.

 

[Feedmysheep]

Which parts do you consider true? Please be specific.

Just the part of the Bible from Genesis 1:1 through to Revelation 22:21 I believe is truth.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

To me those verses mean that the physical bodies of all animals (both man and beasts) will die and return to dust after they die.

I also believe that the physical bodies of all animals (both men and beasts) will die and return to dust after they die. However, I don't believe that their spirits will ever die or that they will all cross over into the spirit realm. I say this with confidence because I speak from forty-five years worth of personal experience with paranormal phenomena (spirits). I have no reason to believe that souls die or believe anything else the Bible claims about the afterlife.