Can a Fictional Story Have a Connection to Reality?

[Polymath257]

So if you are watching a movie like Star Wars, then you would say that the only things ‘real’ about it are the words they are using, the material of the clothes they are wearing, the analysis of the emotions? But you would consider nothing real about the story?

Again, they may talk about stars that are real.

The story is fiction. That means it is 'not real'.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Again, they may talk about stars that are real.

The story is fiction. That means it is 'not real'.

Same question. Can the unreal, or non-real, effect reality? That’s the real poll question at bottom perhaps.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Do the actions of fictional characters have a connection to reality? If so, through what means?

Through one means, and one means only -- the reader.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

So then, for you, the unreal, on non-real, can effect reality?

Only through interaction with the mind and imagination of the reader. This is not some kind of magic "spooky metaphysics." We ourselves are the medium through which ideas can be reified.

 

[The Hammer]

Fiction can have connections to reality as well as containing deep wisdom about the conundrum of the human condition.

Just because you think a story "fake" or even a "myth" doesn't mean it is without value or moral substance.

What you take from a story and how you integrate it's lessons into your life, is how it "becomes real" for you.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Only through interaction with the mind and imagination of the reader. This is not some kind of magic "spooky metaphysics." We ourselves are the medium through which ideas can be reified.

Are all ideas non-real? Is morality non-real?

 

[Viker]

Yes. Think about 'To Kill A Mockingbird'. A good story (any story) can come from a non-fictional source rooted in truths, facts, etc. And fiction can contain wisdom.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Are all ideas non-real? Is morality non-real?

You seem either really confused, or to be trying to set up a straw-man of gargantuan proportions, and I'm not sure which.

No idea is "non-real." It may well be the case that there is a lost book that nobody has seen for many centuries that contains an idea that no living human has ever had -- but it still exists, in reality, on a page. The ideas that we have in our heads (whether conjured up by ourselves, or heard from others, or gleaned from the pages of Harry Potter), are real in the sense that they occupy an electro-chemical space in our physical brains.

So no, all ideas are in fact real. A non-real idea (non-real in that it does not exist in either a brain or a retrievable record) doesn't exist at all.

And morality, in the end, is just another set of ideas.

 

[blü 2]

If your answer is yes, then by what means do fictional stories connect to reality?

Obviously they can use real locations, times in history, human conventions and so on.

But a well-made piece of fiction appeals to the reader's culture and emotions, whether book or film/video. And a well-constructed plot (as the ancient Greeks knew) basically needs a set-up, the workings of opposing forces, a climax and a resolution. Throughout, the reader/watcher will be making personal judgments of harming (bad) or not harming, fair or unfair, loyal or disloyal, since these are moral judgments that all humans are born with, and proper or improper, which may vary from culture to culture.

So a story about people will almost always involve such elements, and from a didactic point of view, be capable of reinforcing "good" and rejecting "bad" ─ though the importance of that will vary greatly over the range of stories.

Of course a didactic story like Job may leave some readers with a sense of disgust rather than a feeling of edification, entertainment or amusement.

 

[Polymath257]

So a real person can derive wisdom from a fictional story to improve their lives in the real world, but the actual story part of the fictional story is not real in any way? Do I have that correct?

Yes. The fictional story is transmitted by real effects (letters on a page, or on a screen, etc). That causes changes in the person's mind, which can affect their behavior.

But the story itself is fiction.

 

[Polymath257]

So then, for you, the unreal, on non-real, can effect reality?

No. The ideas are real. What they describe is not.

 

[Polymath257]

Same question. Can the unreal, or non-real, effect reality? That’s the real poll question at bottom perhaps.

No. Only real things (like ideas) can affect reality. But the ideas can be about things that are not real.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

So a real person can derive wisdom from a fictional story to improve their lives in the real world, but the actual story part of the fictional story is not real in any way? Do I have that correct?

Yes, you have that correctly.

So no, all ideas are in fact real. A non-real idea (non-real in that it does not exist in either a brain or a retrievable record) doesn't exist at all.

Is the story part of a fictional story not an idea? Because you said it wasn’t real initially..

 

[Treasure Hunter]

No. Only real things (like ideas) can affect reality. But the ideas can be about things that are not real.

Can the content of an idea be real? Or what exactly is real about an idea in your mind?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Is the story part of a fictional story not an idea? Because you said it wasn’t real initially..

In that instance I meant that it was not an actual account of any real, historical event.

You seem to be struggling with this idea of "reality" in a way I've never seen before.

Here's something to consider: while our mental states might be real (they exist, in fact, as OUR mental states), they may not be reflective of any reality outside of our own mental state. But we have the power, often, to reify them -- to turn them into a reality. And we also have the capacity to forget them, in which case they no longer exist.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

In that instance I meant that it was not an actual account of any real, historical event.

You seem to be struggling with this idea of "reality" in a way I've never seen before.

Here's something to consider: while our mental states might be real (they exist, in fact, as OUR mental states), they may not be reflective of any reality outside of our own mental state. But we have the power, often, to reify them -- to turn them into a reality. And we also have the capacity to forget them, in which case they no longer exist.

Same question for you:
Can the content of an idea ever be real? Or is it always not real?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

So then, for you, the unreal, on non-real, can effect reality?

I’ll try to speed this up. You seem to have already implied that in your mind the content of an idea is never real. Correct me if I’m mistaken.

So then is the real better than the non-real? Should we strive to correspond with reality? Does truth always correspond with reality? Is truth always better?

What happens when a worse morality is real in the world? Is it better? Is it more true?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Same question for you:
Can the content of an idea ever be real? Or is it always not real?

I've been trying to make clear: an idea is a mental state (when it is in my head) or a record of another mental state (other than my own) when it is recorded somewhere. In that sense, the idea is real.

But the idea is not the reality -- it is a pointer, like an address register in a computer. It may point to something that is real (in a computer, to an actual address somewhere else in the computer's memory), or to something that is not (in the computer, to an address so high that it does not refer to anything that the computer itself contains).

I can hold in my mind the idea of an Invisible Pink Unicorn -- and while that idea is a real mental state that I can sustain, it does not point to anything outside of my mind that is itself real. I can also hold in my mind the text of a great Shakespeare monologue, and that does indeed point to something real -- I can hand you a page with the speech written on it and you can check whether my mental state contains the speech accurately by listening to me recite it.

I see where you are going, and I don't think you can get there. You are trying to suggest it may be possible that an "idea" exists -- somewhere "out there," all by itself, without any reference to a reality that we can know, or any connection to the mental state of somebody we can question.

I say to you that you can never answer that. The moment you try, it becomes an idea in your own mind -- an instance of your own mental state. And your mental state may, or may not, point to something real outside of that state. But without your mental state, even the idea itself does not exist.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I’ll try to speed this up. You seem to have already implied that in your mind the content of an idea is never real. Correct me if I’m mistaken.

As I said, that is not correct. In my own mind, the content of an idea (which is a real mental state for me) may or may not point to a reality outside of my own mind. But it remains only a pointer.

So then is the real better than the non-real? Should we strive to correspond with reality? Does truth always correspond with reality? Is truth always better?

False equivalence! How did you get from "real and non-real" to "truth?" A lie can existence -- it can be real -- and yet not be the truth! See?

What happens when a worse morality is real in the world? Is it better? Is it more true?

This question is not well-formed enough for me to try to answer it. I do not know what you are trying to ask.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

As I said, that is not correct. In my own mind, the content of an idea (which is a real mental state for me) may or may not point to a reality outside of my own mind. But it remains only a pointer.

False equivalence! How did you get from "real and non-real" to "truth?" A lie can existence -- it can be real -- and yet not be the truth! See?

This question is not well-formed enough for me to try to answer it. I do not know what you are trying to ask.

Does truth correspond to reality at all? Does a lie correspond to reality just as much?