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Can a human be more compassionate and merciful than God (in your opinion)

What is the most compassionate approach?

  • burn wicked people and unbelievers in hell forever and ever

    Votes: 3 15.0%
  • put them out of their misery

    Votes: 3 15.0%
  • Purify, heal, and transform all people (through many lifetimes if need be)

    Votes: 14 70.0%

  • Total voters
    20

interminable

منتظر
Heaven supposedly saw a rebellion, so apparently it's not without its share of drama either.


Sure, we could wait on God to heal them ... or we could get a prescription for some antibiotics.


Not so much


But if He wants to argue His actions are justified, He will actually have to justify them.


If God is unwilling to even hear someone out, that implies insecurity about (O)ne's position, doesn't it?
الطارق
يَوْمَ تُبْلَى السَّرَائِرُ
The Day when secrets will be put on trial, (9)
In that day there is nothing that can be hidden.

For some there is a chance
But for some not


الكهف
أُولَٰئِكَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا بِآيَاتِ رَبِّهِمْ وَلِقَائِهِ فَحَبِطَتْ أَعْمَالُهُمْ فَلَا نُقِيمُ لَهُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَزْنًا
Those are the ones who disbelieve in the verses of their Lord and in [their] meeting Him, so their deeds have become worthless; and We will not assign to them on the Day of Resurrection any importance. (105)
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Have u ever read the quran in Arabic?

How much your possibility of evil spirit worth it?


If people could bring like it they didn't hesitate to do so.
I have not read the Koran in Arabic but it probably isn't written very well, because when it's translated it becomes incoherent.

A lot of other books don't become incoherent when translated. The Koran is a poor poor poorly written piece of literature. God could do much better.

Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is much more coherent, makes a lot more sense, gets right to the point, and is a much better read.
 

interminable

منتظر
I have not read the Koran in Arabic but it probably isn't written very well, because when it's translated it becomes incoherent.

A lot of other books don't become incoherent when translated. The Koran is a poor poor poorly written piece of literature. God could do much better.

Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is much more coherent, makes a lot more sense, gets right to the point, and is a much better read.
It's very interesting to know that with this incoherence that u say no one could bring something like it.

Besides as I said before God isn't supposed to write or send a book as we want. He does whatever he wants. U can't find a single mistake grammatically in quran.

After all
Some verses were sent in different situations and circumstances.

I just consider this as a pretext.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
It's very interesting to know that with this incoherence that u say no one could bring something like it.

Besides as I said before God isn't supposed to write or send a book as we want. He does whatever he wants. U can't find a single mistake grammatically in quran.

After all
Some verses were sent in different situations and circumstances.

I just consider this as a pretext.
I think many people have brought something like it. I've read much more coherent intelligent religious text
 

interminable

منتظر
Be more objective if you can. That's quite vague.
Actually if I want to be honest the person that wants to defeat the quran claims he should already know Arabic.

If u compare other books to quran u will find that they are completely different in eloquence. Even the first Shia imam Ali is known as the leader of words (read نهج البلاغه or nahj albalaghah)
If u read his statements in Arabic u will find them unbelievable but still quran is different.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Actually if I want to be honest the person that wants to defeat the quran claims he should already know Arabic.

If u compare other books to quran u will find that they are completely different in eloquence. Even the first Shia imam Ali is known as the leader of words (read نهج البلاغه or nahj albalaghah)
If u read his statements in Arabic u will find them unbelievable but still quran is different.

By what parameters do you gauge the Quran's eloquence ?
That sounds incredibly subjective.
 

interminable

منتظر
By what parameters do you gauge the Quran's eloquence ?
That sounds incredibly subjective.
I told u Arabic grammar and rhetoric and... But I know what u want to say.

If I find some unbelievers that I'm sure they don't tell lie and have scruple and know Arabic well and say this human written statements are similar to quran I will accept them.

But please consider that infidels in the time of revelation couldn't bring like it because if they could do that there wasn't any need to wage war against our prophet pbuh
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Please do elabarote on that.
Why do you think that is not relevant ? It certainly looks like a comparable situation in a significant way ( assuming a certain interpretation of the bible, of course ).
What relevant distinction do you see ?

First, one has to understand the concept of free will. It means that every moment, we can choose good or bad. God created the angels first and gave them free will. Because of this one angel rose to think he was like God and challenged him for a promotion. Then we have God creating A&E, giving the perfection and eternal life. The only thing was they had to obey God and not eat fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. That's it.

What happened is God ended up destroying this world because the original sin corrupted all despite being perfect. Slight impurity, imho.

Today, we have John 3:16 as our test. We have received eternal life of heaven, earth and hell because of it. Prior to this, we had nothing. Just void after death. We all will be resurrected after death to their final destination. Jesus will be the final judge.

I still think you're still applying what you want to hear to the above situation and it isn't correct.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
In what I believe is the accurate version of postmortem events you don't "wake up" to anything. You don't even get to experience the darkness. My opinion? Admittedly. But rooted in the real and observable conditions of our universe. Very unlike most claims that involve anything more - and therefore more real to me than any story, or "may not be right" testimony - however scholarly it may supposedly be.

What you say is the faith you choose. How can I argue with that?
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
But they couldn't defeat his claim that has invited human being to bring just 3 verses like the holy quran.
Yeah...that is just a fairy tale. A human being can bring forth plenty of verses like the Quran. It is a man-made book full of calls to violence and bigotry. In fact, it's one of the most bigoted books I've ever read.

Quran (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you

Quran (3:56) – “As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.”

Quran (3:151) – “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority”.


Quran (4:89) – “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

Quran (4:95) – “Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-” It appears this passage criticizes “peaceful” Muslims.

Quran (4:104) – “And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain…”

Quran (5:33) – “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement”


Quran (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

Quran (8:15) – “O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey’s end.”

Quran (8:59-60) – “And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah’s Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape.

Quran (8:65) – “O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight…”

Quran (9:5) – “So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.”

Quran (9:14) – “Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace…” Once again, the way Allah wishes to punnish them is by "your hands".

Quran (9:123) – “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.”


Quran (33:60-62) – “If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while.

Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter.” This passage sanctions the slaughter (rendered “merciless” and “horrible murder” in other translations)

Quran (47:3-4) – “Those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the truth from their lord. Thus does Allah set forth form men their lessons by similtudes. Therefore when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,” Those who reject Allah are to be subdued in battle."

Quran (47:35) – “Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost

Quran (48:29) – “Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves”

The Koran is bad news. I read it in jail from cover to cover. It filled me with darkness to the point I didn't even want to have the book in the same room with me.

from the hadith of sahih bukhari (2)
Volume 1, #234
Narrated Abu Qilaba:
He (Muhammed) then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron. They were put in 'Al-Harra' and when they asked for water, no water was given to them."

That is the epitome of hatred and cruelty!

Also, apparently someone has come up with some verses that are more persuasive than the Koran, because the Bible is still the best seller and most influential book in the world year after year after year.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Anyhow, for those who believe God sends people to a place to be tortured for eternity...I am more compassionate and merciful than your God! I wouldn't want my worst enemy to suffer forever.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
You a human you live in this world with others. You must deal with others on a personal level. You are not thinking like God. God that created everything. God that gives you a purpose. God that gives you a choice to follow or not. God that lives apart wanting you to join him.

As a father at times I must let my children fail so that they learn. Even though I am much more experienced then my children they don't always listen to me and I respect that. Eventually I believe that they will come around but they may never come around. I have 2 kids and I want them to live a successful life without me. God has billions of Kids and wants them to be successful in life to live with him. They are major differences.

Considering the bolded part above - do you ever NOT attempt to tell them? When you see a possible problem on your child's horizon that you, yourself know the key to avoiding or overcoming - do you ever NOT tell them about it, and not even try to warn them about it? Or do you always make the attempt? If you always make the attempt, then can you discern why it is that you do? Can you then extend this notion to God and admit to yourself that He DOES NOT always make the attempt? To even dream of considering Him a "father" at that point is to forsake the name/title of "father", and to use the word in vain, in my opinion. It is, in essence, blasphemy to the idea of a true "father" to grant God the title - just as we might condemn neglectful "fathers" on the Earth when they do not meet the ideal standards set forth. God is not always there when He, supposedly, can be. It is my true opinion that He does NOT NEED TO BE THERE. It doesn't really matter if He is or not - time and time again He has proven this (if we assume He exists). And, as a father myself, I can tell you that if my children ever truly need me, I will be there if it is at all within my power. I simply refuse to accept the title "father" as casually as God apparently does.
 
Last edited:

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
Considering the bolded part above - do you ever NOT attempt to tell them? When you see a possible problem on your child's horizon that you, yourself know the key to avoiding or overcoming - do you ever NOT tell them about it, and not even try to warn them about it? Or do you always make the attempt? If you always make the attempt, then can you discern why it is that you do? Can you then extend this notion to God and admit to yourself that He DOES NOT always make the attempt? To even dream of considering Him a "father" at that point is to forsake the name/title of "father", and to use the word in vain, in my opinion. It is, in essence, blasphemy to the idea of a true "father" to grant God the title - just as we might condemn neglectful "fathers" on the Earth when they do not meet the ideal standards set forth. God is not always there when He, supposedly, can be. It is my true opinion that He does NOT NEED TO BE THERE. It doesn't really matter if He is or not - time and time again He has proven this (if we assume He exists). And, as a father myself, I can tell you that if my children ever truly need me, I will be there if it is at all within my power. I simply refuse to accept the title "father" as casually as God apparently does.

Now you are evaluating God based on you opinion's. Your human understanding of morals. You indicate God doesn't attempt to warn us, how can you be sure. You do feel pain. You do get insights.

To answer your questions yes I allow my kids to do dangerous things without my input. It does frustrate me at times but I can not be there with them always. They must learn to take care of themselves and learn from their mistakes. That is me being a good father. I must trust in them or they will never trust themselves.

We do not know what the rules to creation are. God did not go and get a female God pregnant and out popped humans. How can you decide what God should do. Why do you believe God is our father. I believe God created us to be equals.
 

Vitalitarian

New Member
The doctrine of eternal conscious torture is probably the most morally repugnant idea to come out of the revealed religions.
It's very interesting to know that with this incoherence that u say no one could bring something like it.

Besides as I said before God isn't supposed to write or send a book as we want. He does whatever he wants. U can't find a single mistake grammatically in quran.

After all
Some verses were sent in different situations and circumstances.

I just consider this as a pretext.

I think I've read before that the Qur'an has some grammatical irregularities but that Arabic eventually conformed to these irregularities so that the Qur'an's use of Arabic grammar became the standard for Arabic grammar. If this is true, then it makes the claim for the Qur'an's perfect grammar much less impressive.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Oh, I guess I see what he is saying. Of course not, but it's not relevant to the situation between God and A&E. You're applying today's concepts to the past and let's see... missing the most important thing in order to keep believing atheism.

Who came up with reparations? Liberals?
So it's okay for God to punish the innocent descendants of people who did something wrong, but when we do it it's somehow morally wrong?
 
And would u please tell me about Islam

Does Islam prove its validity by myth or it uses logic and reason to do so?

I have debated with Muslims on this site for years and have not been presented with anything convincing, quite the opposite in fact. When I tell them their "evidence" or logic is unconvincing it is because it is unconvincing. You need something beyond claims from the Koran and it's believers to convince me. However, unsupported claims is all you have.
 

interminable

منتظر
Yeah...that is just a fairy tale. A human being can bring forth plenty of verses like the Quran. It is a man-made book full of calls to violence and bigotry. In fact, it's one of the most bigoted books I've ever read.

Quran (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you

Quran (3:56) – “As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.”

Quran (3:151) – “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority”.


Quran (4:89) – “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

Quran (4:95) – “Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-” It appears this passage criticizes “peaceful” Muslims.

Quran (4:104) – “And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain…”

Quran (5:33) – “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement”


Quran (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

Quran (8:15) – “O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey’s end.”

Quran (8:59-60) – “And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah’s Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape.

Quran (8:65) – “O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight…”

Quran (9:5) – “So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.”

Quran (9:14) – “Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace…” Once again, the way Allah wishes to punnish them is by "your hands".

Quran (9:123) – “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.”


Quran (33:60-62) – “If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while.

Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter.” This passage sanctions the slaughter (rendered “merciless” and “horrible murder” in other translations)

Quran (47:3-4) – “Those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the truth from their lord. Thus does Allah set forth form men their lessons by similtudes. Therefore when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,” Those who reject Allah are to be subdued in battle."

Quran (47:35) – “Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost

Quran (48:29) – “Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves”

The Koran is bad news. I read it in jail from cover to cover. It filled me with darkness to the point I didn't even want to have the book in the same room with me.

from the hadith of sahih bukhari (2)
Volume 1, #234
Narrated Abu Qilaba:
He (Muhammed) then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron. They were put in 'Al-Harra' and when they asked for water, no water was given to them."

That is the epitome of hatred and cruelty!

Also, apparently someone has come up with some verses that are more persuasive than the Koran, because the Bible is still the best seller and most influential book in the world year after year after year.
I answered u before about these verses and I showed u some verses completely different from these verses. But since u aren't after the truth I no longer think u should be answered.
 

interminable

منتظر
Anyhow, for those who believe God sends people to a place to be tortured for eternity...I am more compassionate and merciful than your God! I wouldn't want my worst enemy to suffer forever.
If someone kill 200000 people in one second u will let him to be free and scoff the others huh???


Thank u . We don't want your compassionate behavior towards criminals
 
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