Can a literal Genesis creation story really hold up?

[greentwiga]

This is utter speculation on your part. You have no evidences to support your claim of Jews keeping the tradition that far in the past.

Please provide sources to this claim of yours.



I don't have much knowledge or experience (actually zero experience) on building water vessel. If you think the Jews kept accurate oral or written traditions as you have claim, then I don't see what is written down, the structure of the ark as given in Genesis 6 to be related in any way to your claim that that the boat or raft, made out of reeds.

One thing I do understand, is that you can't make decks out of reeds, and Genesis 6 clearly stated that the ark has 3 decks.

And raft wouldn't have multiple decks, especially made out of reeds.

What part of astonishing do you not understand? I have no information on any culture that has oral accurate transmissions. Do read up on how the Jewish people went to extreme methods to accurately copy their scriptures. I base my statement on looking at the garden. I looked at the region between the tigris and euphrates, where wild figs and wild wheat grew abundantly. I then looked for a mountain that feeds four rivers and possibly is volcanic. There is only one, Karacadag. The Bible also indicates that Adam domesticated wheat. Then I found 5 scientists, Heun, et al. concluded that wheat was domesticated at Karacadag. What is the possibility that myth maker would get such a small location right?

As for the Ark, there is at least one Bible translation that uses reed for the ark. Also read Heyerdahl's book "Tigris" about reed boats.

 

[outhouse]

As for the Ark, there is at least one Bible translation that uses reed for the ark. Also read Heyerdahl's book "Tigris" about reed boats.

No, there is not one that is credible.

We already know the mythology comes from Mesopotamia, exactly where the OT claims the legends come from.

Israelites never went throuh any kind of large flood, and never built a boat.

What part of astonishing do you not understand?

What part of laughable do you not understand.

:biglaugh:

I have no information on any culture that has oral accurate transmissions. Do read up on how the Jewish people went to extreme methods to accurately copy their scriptures.

This is not true before the OT was canonized


You just keep compiling mistakes, one after another.

I base my statement on looking at the garden.

:biglaugh:

I looked at the region between the tigris and euphrates, where wild figs and wild wheat grew abundantly. I then looked for a mountain that feeds four rivers and possibly is volcanic. There is only one, Karacadag.

This place has nothing at all to do with the biblical garden of eden.

The Bible also indicates that Adam domesticated wheat.

The bible indicates unicorns and walking dead people.

Then I found 5 scientists, Heun, et al. concluded that wheat was domesticated at Karacadag. What is the possibility that myth maker would get such a small location right?

They did not get it right.


This is only your poor guess from a severe lack of historical and biblical knowledge.

 

[gnostic]

As for the Ark, there is at least one Bible translation that uses reed for the ark. Also read Heyerdahl's book "Tigris" about reed boats.

Sure, I know that you can make boats or rafts out of reeds; I am not denying that.

But I'm only questioning what types of boats can be made out of reeds.

Genesis 6 described a multi-level decked vessel, with roof.

Raft can have no multiple decks, nor roof. If it did, then it wouldn't be a raft. You do know what a raft is, don't you?

And though boats can have multiple decks, and levels of compartments and even a roof, reeds are not suitable material for making multi-level decks.

If the floors of top and middle decks were made of reeds, then the floors would fold up and collapse the moment any weight is on it, and these compartments are supposed to be filled with animals, 6 humans, and whatever essentials, like food and water, as a couple of examples. And you certainly can't have fire near reeds, and they are spend a whole year in the ark.

And that another thing - a whole year. Do you think any vessel made out of reeds can last a whole year. Reeds may be buoy, but can it whole it's structure for that period, with water constantly raining down for 40 straight days and nights. Reeds are not suitable material during a flood.

Woods are better material to use, when building a multi-level decked vessel, plus with a roof and door.

And second of all, i seriously doubt that any vessel can be built to dimensions as given in Genesis 6.

There are limits to size and structure to what kind of vessels can be made with reeds.

 

[CG Didymus]

I'm wondering, also, where did all the water drain to so fast? I've heard some Christians say that the Earth was flatter then, and some land rose and made the mountains and some land sank and formed the oceans. If that were true, I can't imagine what kind of waves and turbulence that must have created. However, as written in Genesis, the water level drop rather slowly. So, again, to where?

 

[outhouse]

What part of astonishing do you not understand? .

There was this guy who came through here roughly a year or more ago.


he had this wacky idea Kharsag was the garden of eden. Any search you do will come up with his work.


Problem is, his work was lauaghable at best, discounting known scholarships that are not up for debate.

Your making the same mistakes he was.

 

[outhouse]

I'm wondering, also, where did all the water drain to so fast? I've heard some Christians say that the Earth was flatter then, and some land rose and made the mountains and some land sank and formed the oceans. If that were true, I can't imagine what kind of waves and turbulence that must have created. However, as written in Genesis, the water level drop rather slowly. So, again, to where?

Anything is beleivable when you invoke magic.

If god could make the water come he could make it go away silly


YEC did not use reason and knowledge and education to gain their belief, so you cannot use it to open their minds.

 

[Thief]

Anything is beleivable when you invoke magic.

If god could make the water come he could make it go away silly


YEC did not use reason and knowledge and education to gain their belief, so you cannot use it to open their minds.

So what's holding you back?

History books, I suppose.

 

[CG Didymus]

Anything is beleivable when you invoke magic.

If god could make the water come he could make it go away silly


YEC did not use reason and knowledge and education to gain their belief, so you cannot use it to open their minds.

Magic? No, that's silly. It come from a canopy of water that hovered over the Earth and from the water that was under the Earth. So it was only magic making it go away so fast. Hmm, I wonder how the water that drained into the low places and became the oceans got salty? Did God do that?

 

[greentwiga]

True gnostic.


He also fails to realize the oldest legend states Ziusudra went down the swollen river on a barge loaded with goods.


These barges are well known and typical for this time period on the Euphrates.


Poor twiga is just trying to force fit late mythology into the past historical records much the same as a child fails to force round pegs into a square hole.

So quick to jump to conclusions. I have read the myths such as Ziusudra. I have read how one was told to tear down the reed hut to build the boat. I know that the Sumerians had two kinds of boats, the 100 and the 300. What that meant is not clear. I also know that they sailed these boats to the Harrappan civilization to trade. I also know that the Indian version has the man saving the seeds of the domesticated crops. I have also seen pictures of the reed huts and reed mosques that the swamp people used to live in before Sadam Hussein drained the swamp. I could try to make it fit better, but I just analyze the Bible passage carefully and go where it leads. You don't have to believe me, but I did conclude that the Ark was a reed boat before I learned all this.

 

[greentwiga]

There was this guy who came through here roughly a year or more ago.


he had this wacky idea Kharsag was the garden of eden. Any search you do will come up with his work.


Problem is, his work was lauaghable at best, discounting known scholarships that are not up for debate.

Your making the same mistakes he was.

Yes, I found the info about O'brien. I can see some similarities, but why does him making mistakes mean I am making mistakes? After all, he doesn't stick with the Bible that states Eden is at the Tigris and Euphrates. Nor does he agree with science when he concludes that the area between the Tigris and Euphrates is totally unfit for wheat, etc.

 

[greentwiga]

Sure, I know that you can make boats or rafts out of reeds; I am not denying that.

But I'm only questioning what types of boats can be made out of reeds.

Genesis 6 described a multi-level decked vessel, with roof.

Raft can have no multiple decks, nor roof. If it did, then it wouldn't be a raft. You do know what a raft is, don't you?

And though boats can have multiple decks, and levels of compartments and even a roof, reeds are not suitable material for making multi-level decks.

If the floors of top and middle decks were made of reeds, then the floors would fold up and collapse the moment any weight is on it, and these compartments are supposed to be filled with animals, 6 humans, and whatever essentials, like food and water, as a couple of examples. And you certainly can't have fire near reeds, and they are spend a whole year in the ark.

And that another thing - a whole year. Do you think any vessel made out of reeds can last a whole year. Reeds may be buoy, but can it whole it's structure for that period, with water constantly raining down for 40 straight days and nights. Reeds are not suitable material during a flood.

Woods are better material to use, when building a multi-level decked vessel, plus with a roof and door.

And second of all, i seriously doubt that any vessel can be built to dimensions as given in Genesis 6.

There are limits to size and structure to what kind of vessels can be made with reeds.

Rafts are a general term for vehicles that float on their own. Boats must rely on a hollow place, and can be made out of material such as steel that doesn't float on their own. Thus, there is nothing in the definition that prevents rafts from having three story structures on top of them. The structures can be made out of wood. It is only the main body that has to be made of reeds.

Remember, we have records of the 300 size reed boats cargo. They carried many tons of cargo and spent weeks sailing to the Indus and back. They had to have solved the problem of fire, just as the equally vulnerable wooden boats solved it.

You obviously haven't read the journeys of Thor Heyerdahl in his three reed boats. His first boat was bundled loosely and had to be abandoned just before he reached America from Africa. Reeds, when bundled tight, as most reed boat builders learned, remain buoyant for long times. We even have chips of tar from a shipyard in Sumer. Some chips have grooves that fit the berdi reed perfectly. on the other side are barnacles. Barnacles don't grow in a week or two. These ships are unsinkable. waves that roll over them just roll off or sink through the reeds. Storms are not a problem. running into a rocky shore is, but not storms.

 

[outhouse]

So quick to jump to conclusions.

True! If that what you call opinion after years of research?

I know that the Sumerians had two kinds of boats,

They had boats that mirrored Egyptian boats.

They had many different types of vessels

Wood with oars
Ceramic
Reed
cloth
Animal skin
Hair

. I could try to make it fit better, but I just analyze the Bible passage carefully and go where it leads.

That your biggest mistake.


The main reason people go down this particular road, is because they want the mythology to become legend.

They start with claiming it is a mistranslation of the Red Sea. But in doing so your also trying to state that the Exodus happened. But it did not. And no mass of people went through the Reed sea or lake.


To understand this mythology properly you have to understand the cultural anthropology of Israelites and their origins or the context is all lost in imagination, much like your current position.

You fail to understand Israelites Canaanite origins. If you cannot see this, you cannot understand the mythology's birth, evolution and how it took its final form.

You also have to look at how many times they were beat down and by who. You have to realize the Mesopotamian influence that was possibly ment to keep the Assyrian captures happy by ditching multiple traditions of a multi cultural Jewish people who wanted to go back to Israel. They were semi forced to do a certain amount of semi canonizing.


But most of all you need to understand the cultural anthropology of the many different civilizations that existed before Israelites existed, and when you do that, you see with open eyes, every aspect of the complete mythological cycle of brith, oral traditions to written traditions, to cross cultural oral traditions and then watch that pattern of other cultures redacting the mythology to meet their need and mirror their culture. And that is all still in Mesopotamia long before Israelites used previous mythology to create their mythology which also evolved over time through collections of different traditions in oral and written traditions.

 

[greentwiga]

No, there is not one that is credible.

We already know the mythology comes from Mesopotamia, exactly where the OT claims the legends come from.

Israelites never went throuh any kind of large flood, and never built a boat.




What part of laughable do you not understand.

:biglaugh:




This is not true before the OT was canonized


You just keep compiling mistakes, one after another.




:biglaugh:





This place has nothing at all to do with the biblical garden of eden.





The bible indicates unicorns and walking dead people.





They did not get it right.


This is only your poor guess from a severe lack of historical and biblical knowledge.

How can you dismiss everything without looking at it? Have you concluded something and don't want to look at anything that disagrees with your beliefs?

 

[outhouse]

How can you dismiss everything without looking at it? Have you concluded something and don't want to look at anything that disagrees with your beliefs?

After years of education, I see more then you do. So yes its very very easy to throw your opinions away flat knowing how many of these legends evolved.


YOUR going against factual information and using imagination to connect dots that are already well established.


How do you thorw away the fact that Sumerians and Mesopotamians had the similar creation mythology and known flood mythology that often mirrors the later Israelite version word for word in many places? and then make some ridiculous claim knowing much of the mythology has Mesopotamian origins not in dispute by anyone.

Then from ignorance, have the gaul to claim I dismiss everything without looking at it????????????

 

[outhouse]

If what you stated had the slightest bit or merit or a shred of plausibility.

We would see the oral tradition of the garden of eden in Sumerian, Akkadian, and Assyrian cultures, that went through a evolution of these cross cultural oral and written traditions.

But we don't DO NOT see this. Instead we see 6th century Israelite creation in mythology, that reflects 6th century wants needs and desires

How did your legend completely skip thousands of years of Mesopotamian cultures only to appear to Israelites and no one else?

 

[Thief]

If what you stated had the slightest bit or merit or a shred of plausibility.

We would see the oral tradition of the garden of eden in Sumerian, Akkadian, and Assyrian cultures, that went through a evolution of these cross cultural oral and written traditions.






How did your legend completely skip thousands of years of Mesopotamian cultures only to appear to Israelites and no one else?

I see you're still waiting for someone to hand you a history book written by....God.

 

[greentwiga]

After years of education, I see more then you do. So yes its very very easy to throw your opinions away flat knowing how many of these legends evolved.


YOUR going against factual information and using imagination to connect dots that are already well established.


How do you thorw away the fact that Sumerians and Mesopotamians had the similar creation mythology and known flood mythology that often mirrors the later Israelite version word for word in many places? and then make some ridiculous claim knowing much of the mythology has Mesopotamian origins not in dispute by anyone.

Then from ignorance, have the gaul to claim I dismiss everything without looking at it????????????

Specifically, I ask why do you say Heun et al are wrong about their DNA analysis without reading it? Please quote any scientist who quote them and show why they are wrong.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

So what's holding you back?

History books, I suppose.

Yeah... We don't need nun of dat dere fancy book-lernin' and whatnot as long as we got duh Buy-bul.

 

[outhouse]

Specifically, I ask why do you say Heun et al are wrong about their DNA analysis without reading it? Please quote any scientist who quote them and show why they are wrong.

Did I say they were wrong?


Or did I suggest I did not like your translation and conclusion of their evidence.

I would only ask, where is your cross cultural evidence that the Israelite version was passed down for thousands of years.?????????????????


Instead we see Israelites influenced by previous Mesopotamian mythology when they created their version over hundreds of years of collection and redacting. Is this not true?

 

[greentwiga]

Either Heun et al said all domestic einkorn wheat came from a very small area around Karacadag or they didn't say that. What is hard to translate?

Site of Einkorn Wheat Domestication Identified by DNA Fingerprinting

1. Manfred Heun,
2. Ralf Schäfer-Pregl,
3. Dieter Klawan,
4. Renato Castagna,
5. Monica Accerbi,
6. Basilio Borghi,
7. Francesco Salamini*

The emergence of agriculture in the Near East also involved the domestication of einkorn wheat. Phylogenetic analysis that was based on the allelic frequency at 288 amplified fragment length polymorphism molecular marker loci indicates that a wild group of Triticum monococcum boeoticum lines from the Karacadağ mountains (southeast Turkey) is the likely progenitor of cultivated einkorn varieties. Evidence from archeological excavations of early agricultural settlements nearby supports the conclusion that domestication of einkorn wheat began near the Karacadağmountains.



The only way I can show the possibility of accurate transmission is to show the account is accurate. The Bible specifically states that the water splits and flows into four rivers including the Tigris and Euphrates. This must be a watershed divide between the two rivers. The other two can be tributaries or independent. It also mentions that figs and wheat grow there. There is only a small region between the Tigris and Euphrates where they grow, and an even smaller region where the growth would be considered a garden, or abundant. Look at the 200 mm isohyut line, and below the Anti-Tarus mountains. Look at Google earth. The only possible mountain(s) is Karacadag.


Also, the founder package of eight crops has two others, lentils and Chickpeas that also indicate the same area, though slightly larger area. (Chickpea see Ladizinski 1976) You may or may not be right about parts of the Bible being written later, but there are parts such as this being very accurate.