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Can a literal Genesis creation story really hold up?

Sees

Dragonslayer
I'm going to see Noah for sure...will be an epic movie :D Watched a long preview trailer yesterday when catching RoboCop (not as bad as reviews) and it is one of those movies made for the big screen.

Of course I don't take the story as real but it's got an entertainment factor, has some ancient, hidden truths certainly imbedded, and most of us grew up with it.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
has some ancient, hidden truths certainly imbedded, .


I highly doubt it.


They wont show the authors writing it in Mesopotamia during and after the Babylonian exile where much of the legends were compiled and influenced in final redactions.

Nor will they deal with the only historical core possible going back to the Sumerian epic.

What would be a great movie is if they started with the

Sumerian epic

Then the

Akkadian epic

Then the

Babylonian epic

Then

Noahs version
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I'm going to see Noah for sure...will be an epic movie :D Watched a long preview trailer yesterday when catching RoboCop (not as bad as reviews) and it is one of those movies made for the big screen.

Of course I don't take the story as real but it's got an entertainment factor, has some ancient, hidden truths certainly imbedded, and most of us grew up with it.
Who's going to play the Nephilim in the movie? Kareem or Shaq?
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
I'm being kind more than anything :D I always feel somewhere in most old myths, legends, etc. is esoteric meaning. The old Telephone game aspect makes it that much harder to dig it out. I'm not an especially big fan of Abrahamic traditions but try to be as gentle as possible with it lately. The bigotry laws mentioned on other threads are not helping with this :facepalm:

I highly doubt it.


They wont show the authors writing it in Mesopotamia during and after the Babylonian exile where much of the legends were compiled and influenced in final redactions.

Nor will they deal with the only historical core possible going back to the Sumerian epic.

What would be a great movie is if they started with the

Sumerian epic

Then the

Akkadian epic

Then the

Babylonian epic

Then

Noahs version
 

greentwiga

Active Member
Yet the descriptions in Genesis do make a reed boat a impossibility.

You also did not source the gopher wood showing how many scholars quote some kind of wood verses only 1 translating it as reed, as shown below.





The authors clearly describe a wood boat, a boat that should remain in mythology and theology, as it is not a practical boat that could exist outside literature.

The proper translation is probably that of "squared timber".

I like how you imperially declare that "the descriptions in Genesis do make a reed boat a impossibility." You don't have any thing to justify that statement. You just want to interpret it as a wooden boat so you can make it impossible.

1) GPhR probably came from the earlier semitic word GPR (without the much later added vowels)

2) Wood can be translated Stalks such as reeds stalks.

3) The word sometimes can be translated reeds, as also stated in Before the Flood book

4) The only other use of ark involved papyrus reeds.

5) Arks were coated with pitch, wood boats were caulked in the seams with pitch, as shown by archaeologists in Ur.

6) Arks held as much as boats, but were unsinkable. See Thor Heyerdahl's RA and Early Man and the Ocean books.

7) Reed boats could be made 450 feet long.

8) Even the Sumerian/Akkadian accounts put many storied structures on the top of the raft.

9) Since the Hebrew word for world can be translated region, the Ark could hold the animals of the region of the Sumerian flood plain.

The Reed boat is scientifically, historically and Biblically valid, the wood boat of 3000 BC is not. Most people translated it as wood because they had no knowledge of reed boats. Thus, your more common translation argument is invalid.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You just want to interpret it as a wooden boat so you can make it impossible.


This is where I see you failing.

It states word for word. the boat is wood.

There are many words that translate to "reed" if that is what the authors intended.

The book also describes a boat design that is not nor cannot be reed.


Gopher wood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Greek Septuagint (3rd–1st centuries BC) translated it as xylon tetragonon, "squared timber".

"smoothed (possibly planed) wood".

gushure i÷ erini" (cedar-beams),

(‘arqa), box wood

English translations tend to favor cypress

pine,

cedar,

fir

teak

sandalwood

ebony

, juniper

acacia

boxwood,

resinous wood

pitched wood

lost type of tree


Only one states "reed"
 

outhouse

Atheistically
The Reed boat is scientifically, historically and Biblically valid, .


How so??????????????



Your flat ignoring

Sumerian epic

Then the

Akkadian epic

Then the

Babylonian epic

Then claiming Noahs version exited outside literature and went through a flood.



If you want any credibility at all, you need to describe your reed boat, the Israelites who built and rode on it, and you need to supply an exact date and location for said flood.

You also have to explain the mythology that existed word for word thousands of years before Israelites existed.

Good luck with that, so far all those who have tried failed. I see nothing new, nor anything that changes the status quo.
 

greentwiga

Active Member
How so??????????????



Your flat ignoring

Sumerian epic

Then the

Akkadian epic

Then the

Babylonian epic

Then claiming Noahs version exited outside literature and went through a flood.



If you want any credibility at all, you need to describe your reed boat, the Israelites who built and rode on it, and you need to supply an exact date and location for said flood.

You also have to explain the mythology that existed word for word thousands of years before Israelites existed.

Good luck with that, so far all those who have tried failed. I see nothing new, nor anything that changes the status quo.

No, I'm not ignoring the three versions of the flood. I quoted one to show how it says tear down the reed hut to build the boat. I have seen pictures of a reed mosque that had huge ribs to hold up the roof that were much the shape of the reed tubes used to make Thor Heyerdahl's Ra craft. Thus tearing down such a structure would speed up the building process.

I also quoted one of the epics that stated the hero built a seven story structure on top to show Noah's three story structure was valid. The three version are older copies than any copy of the Noah story that we have. That does not mean that the Noah story is a version descending from these stories. They could be corrupt versions of the Noah story. We have nothing to prove which came first, only which copy is older.

I favor 3050 BC for the date of the flood (The start of the Jemdet Nasr period.) I also state that the flood was only in Sumer/Shinar. Thor Heyerdahl faithfully patterned his reed crafts, Ra I, Ra II and Tigris after the drawings of the reed crafts he found from Egypt and Sumer. Look at the pictures of his crafts in his books, Ra and Tigris. The Sumerian were very similar. Noah's would have been similar, except much longer and proportionally bigger. The bills of lading for the craft that we have found show that they carried immense weights. The Bible details the Israelites that sailed it.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
No, I'm not ignoring the three versions of the flood. I quoted one to show how it says tear down the reed hut to build the boat. I have seen pictures of a reed mosque that had huge ribs to hold up the roof that were much the shape of the reed tubes used to make Thor Heyerdahl's Ra craft. Thus tearing down such a structure would speed up the building process.

I also quoted one of the epics that stated the hero built a seven story structure on top to show Noah's three story structure was valid. The three version are older copies than any copy of the Noah story that we have. That does not mean that the Noah story is a version descending from these stories. They could be corrupt versions of the Noah story. We have nothing to prove which came first, only which copy is older.

I favor 3050 BC for the date of the flood (The start of the Jemdet Nasr period.) I also state that the flood was only in Sumer/Shinar. Thor Heyerdahl faithfully patterned his reed crafts, Ra I, Ra II and Tigris after the drawings of the reed crafts he found from Egypt and Sumer. Look at the pictures of his crafts in his books, Ra and Tigris. The Sumerian were very similar. Noah's would have been similar, except much longer and proportionally bigger. The bills of lading for the craft that we have found show that they carried immense weights. The Bible details the Israelites that sailed it.


So your trying to state that there was a Noah and he built a reed boat?


So your stating Noahs flood was 3050BC Do you have a attested flood for that date?



Your also using part of the Akkadian mythology in which they used the circle reed boats, which were not that large.

The Sumerian mythology is the oldest, and it was a river flood on a barge.

Not all boats were reed, and this boat is unknown.



You still cannot get past the fact the word the Israelites used was gopher wood.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
The three version are older copies than any copy of the Noah story that we have. That does not mean that the Noah story is a version descending from these stories. They could be corrupt versions of the Noah story. We have nothing to prove which came first, only which copy is older.

.


There is no debate about this.

Israelites did not exist until after 1200 BC

They were influenced by many Mesopotamian mythologies. This is not up for debate. They also state their Noah came from this are describing events in the past, they knew nothing about.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
...Israelites did not exist until after 1200 BC...
I don't know if it is an area that you study, but what about the genetic history of people? For all people to be descended from Adam and Eve, then from Noah and his family, wouldn't geneticists be able to know this from tracking the DNA or something? Supposedly, Noah and his kids were only 4000 years ago, there should be some kind of marker that could prove it one way or another.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I don't know if it is an area that you study, but what about the genetic history of people? For all people to be descended from Adam and Eve, then from Noah and his family, wouldn't geneticists be able to know this from tracking the DNA or something? Supposedly, Noah and his kids were only 4000 years ago, there should be some kind of marker that could prove it one way or another.

No evidence for such an extreme genetic bottleneck. It's just a myth that has nothing to do with literal history.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
No evidence for such an extreme genetic bottleneck. It's just a myth that has nothing to do with literal history.
Extreme? That in 4000 years we have the diversity of people and cultures and religion? You forget, we're talking about God doing it, so nothing's impossible, just highly, highly suspect of being the real, literal truth. Okay, maybe 99.99% chance that it didn't happen, but extreme?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Extreme? That in 4000 years we have the diversity of people and cultures and religion? You forget, we're talking about God doing it, so nothing's impossible, just highly, highly suspect of being the real, literal truth. Okay, maybe 99.99% chance that it didn't happen, but extreme?

By extreme, I'm referring to the genetic bottleneck that would've been caused by all humans except for a handful being wiped out so quickly. A genetic bottleneck is when a population goes from a large breeding pool to a much smaller one, usually in a relatively short amount of time. They're caused by disasters.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I don't know if it is an area that you study, but what about the genetic history of people?

It shows wide diversity and the multi cultural heritage of Israelites, nothing that would or could pinpoint a cultural identity.


And any evidence provided against a cultural identity, would just be another scientific misunderstanding by man to disprove the bible :facepalm:

There is no amount of evidence that will change their minds. I don't believe they used reason and education to gain their faith, so it surely wont change it.


For all people to be descended from Adam and Eve, then from Noah and his family, wouldn't geneticists be able to know this from tracking the DNA or something?

Absolutely.

Its not there.


It does show something the complete opposite.


Supposedly, Noah and his kids were only 4000 years ago, there should be some kind of marker that could prove it one way or another.


They don't accept proof from man. They place everything in a higher power. Even though the book was written by man. :shrug:
 
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