Can a literal Genesis creation story really hold up?

[Skwim]

The only problem I can see with Genesis is that it has been misrepresented by apostate Christianity and therefore misunderstood by skeptic and believer alike. For example, the stars were not created before plants or the Earth, for that matter.

So, what are these "heavens" he created?

Genesis 1 (NIV)

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
​

And I will go along with your claim that the stars, including the Sun and Moon were created after god created Earth

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
​

Nor does the Bible state that the Earth is flat,

Or that it is was made of matzo balls. Your point being, what?

or was created in 144 hours etc.

Nope, but it does say that god was through with all his creating after six days.

Genesis 2

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.


​

But how is misstating these "facts" problematic?

 

[outhouse]

So, what are these "heavens" he created?

Genesis 1 (NIV)

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
​

And I will go along with your claim that the stars, including the Sun and Moon were created after god created Earth

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
​

Or that it is was made of matzo balls. Your point being, what?

Nope, but it does say that god was through with all his creating after six days.

Genesis 2

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.



​

But how is misstating these "facts" problematic?

Go read his website he keeps posting. Its sad people are this confused about history.

 

[Skwim]

Go read his website he keeps posting. Its sad people are this confused about history.

Oh my god! is that bad. I almost feel sorry for responding to him the way I did---but not enough to retract it.

 

[Shad]

Nope. However I do not read Genesis as literal factual history even when I was a Christian. I think literalist are in error and always will be.

 

[Thief]

Nope. However I do not read Genesis as literal factual history even when I was a Christian. I think literalist are in error and always will be.

Read it again.....think science as you do.

 

[Omtita]

So, what are these "heavens" he created?

Genesis 1 (NIV)

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
​

And I will go along with your claim that the stars, including the Sun and Moon were created after god created Earth

I didn't make that claim, quite the contrary. The Hebrew has two states, the perfect and the imperfect. When the perfect is used it signifies completion. The Hebrew word bara, "created" in Genesis 1:1 is perfect, which means at that point the heavens, including the sun, moon and stars, and the Earth were complete.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.​

​

In verse 16 the Hebrew word asah, "made" is in the imperfect state indicating active motion. The heavens and Earth were created in verse 1 and an indeterminate time later they were being prepared for habitation, much the same as a bed is manufactured (complete) and made (continuous) afterwards.

Or that it is was made of matzo balls. Your point being, what?

That the Bible doesn't say the Earth is flat. It said it was spherical long before science did.

Nope, but it does say that god was through with all his creating after six days.

Genesis 2

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.


​

But how is misstating these "facts" problematic?

Are you suggesting I've misstated facts?

Anyway, thousands of years after the seventh day began King David mentioned it as continuing in his time, and later the apostle Paul did the same. The seventh day continues to this day. (Psalm 95:7-11 / Hebrews 4:3, 6, 10)

 

[Omtita]

Go read his website he keeps posting. Its sad people are this confused about history.

It seems as if you are only protesting something you disagree with, but your criticism is vague, perhaps if you could be more specific?

 

[Omtita]

That will be said of you bud. Uninformed? No, you just may not have ran across someone with a real education on the books.


These books are mythology that evolved over hundreds of years, there is no real history here of anything.

It factually is pseudohistory, written is a prose of rhetoric and allegory and metaphor, song and poems, compiled and redacted collections of previous scripture and mythologies.

I will ask you again to kindly support your assertions.

 

[outhouse]

I will ask you again to kindly support your assertions.

I have in this thread many times.

 

[outhouse]

It seems as if you are only protesting something you disagree with, but your criticism is vague, perhaps if you could be more specific?

I can be more specific, quit mixing apologetics with history.

Stay in the same faiths section, and you wont have to deal with real history.

 

[Bunyip]

I didn't make that claim, quite the contrary. The Hebrew has two states, the perfect and the imperfect. When the perfect is used it signifies completion. The Hebrew word bara, "created" in Genesis 1:1 is perfect, which means at that point the heavens, including the sun, moon and stars, and the Earth were complete.




[/INDENT]In verse 16 the Hebrew word asah, "made" is in the imperfect state indicating active motion. The heavens and Earth were created in verse 1 and an indeterminate time later they were being prepared for habitation, much the same as a bed is manufactured (complete) and made (continuous) afterwards.



That the Bible doesn't say the Earth is flat. It said it was spherical long before science did.

You are mistaken, the Hebrew word for a flat disc (chwg) was used to describe the earth - not the Hebrew word for sphere (ball:dur).

Are you suggesting I've misstated facts?

Anyway, thousands of years after the seventh day began King David mentioned it as continuing in his time, and later the apostle Paul did the same. The seventh day continues to this day. (Psalm 95:7-11 / Hebrews 4:3, 6, 10)

 

[Omtita]

I can be more specific, quit mixing apologetics with history.

Stay in the same faiths section, and you wont have to deal with real history.

Am I to understand that you are a representative of this "real history?"

 

[Omtita]

You are mistaken, the Hebrew word for a flat disc (chwg) was used to describe the earth - not the Hebrew word for sphere (ball:dur).

According to Gesenius’s Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures, translated by Samuel P. Tregelles, 1901, p. 263 and A Concordance of the Hebrew and Chaldee Scriptures, by B. Davidson.

Isaiah 40:22 has God above the circle of the Earth so you have to take into account that only a spherical object appears as a circle from every angle of view. A flat disk would more often appear as an ellipse, not a circle.

Could you give an example of ball:dur being used in the Hebrew scripture, please?

 

[Skwim]

I didn't make that claim, quite the contrary. The Hebrew has two states, the perfect and the imperfect. When the perfect is used it signifies completion. The Hebrew word bara, "created" in Genesis 1:1 is perfect, which means at that point the heavens, including the sun, moon and stars, and the Earth were complete..

I can't be bothered with how you interpret any ancient Hebrew text. The compilers of the many versions of the Bible chose to use the words they did because these words best represented the messages as they saw them. For instance, when the compilers used the word "beginning" instead of "conception" in Genesis 1 for the Hebrew word re'shiyth that is the word they thought best conveyed the intent of the Hebrew writers: "beginning" not "conception." If they thought "conception" better expressed the Hebrew intent then that's the word they would have used.
Therefore, unless you can show us that you're more qualified to interpret ancient Hebrew text than those who put the Bibles together your exegesis doesn't impress one wit.

So, when the Bible lists a series of events in a certain order it's reasonable to take that order as being in accord with that of the Hebrews who first penned them. And the same goes for everything else you may reinterpret.

That the Bible doesn't say the Earth is flat. It said it was spherical long before science did.

Your comment "Nor does the Bible state that the Earth is flat,' came out as such a non-sequitur that I couldn't help but point this out with my silly matzo balls. Sorry you missed the point. In any case, although I agree the Bible doesn't flat out state the earth is flat there are passages that suggest as much:

Daniel 4:10-11.
"Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.
The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth."

Isaiah 11:12
"And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

Revelation 7:1 "And after these things I saw four angels standing on four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."
​

That said, I am curious as to where the Bible says the earth is spherical. What ya got?

Are you suggesting I've misstated facts?

No.You said,

"The only problem I can see with Genesis is that it has been misrepresented by apostate Christianity and therefore misunderstood by skeptic and believer alike."

and I'm simply asking why this is problematic? In what way does such misrepresentation and misunderstanding create a problem, and exactly what is this problem? Of course this also raises the question as to why one should pay any attention to your versions rather than that of the many, many compilers who put the Bibles together. Why should we?

 

[Thief]

I can be more specific, quit mixing apologetics with history.

Stay in the same faiths section, and you wont have to deal with real history.

Ignore the above post and continue with theology.

 

[outhouse]

Am I to understand that you are a representative of this "real history?"

I study enough to know where the current state of credible history of Israel's ethnogenesis is.


I know enough to know you don't know anything about real history, and that your website is utter garbage, historically speaking.


Again, no problem with you in a apologetic context, but you are ignorant when it comes to the current state of history.


Your all talk and you use a lot of weasel words. So many words, and just no substance.

 

[outhouse]

That the Bible doesn't say the Earth is flat. It said it was spherical long before science did.

Dishonesty will not help you in this forum.


It states both.


The fact is heliocentric and geocentric and flat earth, are factually in the book.

What you don't know is, the first five books evolved over hundreds and hundreds of years, and during this time, round earth was not common knowledge. Much of the creation mythology was influenced while the Israelites were in exile in Babylon. That's why these creation stories mirror the Mesopotamian sources. These sources go back before man knew anything of the real world they lived in.

 

[Shad]

Read it again.....think science as you do.

Science, and history, has led me to this conclusion long ago and continues to reinforce my view.

 

[Bunyip]

According to Gesenius’s Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures, translated by Samuel P. Tregelles, 1901, p. 263 and A Concordance of the Hebrew and Chaldee Scriptures, by B. Davidson.

Isaiah 40:22 has God above the circle of the Earth so you have to take into account that only a spherical object appears as a circle from every angle of view. A flat disk would more often appear as an ellipse, not a circle.

Could you give an example of ball:dur being used in the Hebrew scripture, please?

I don't understand what point you are trying to make. YES spheres have a circular silhouette - so what? YES the moon appears as a circle, but it is not a circle, it is a sphere. Identifying the shape of the moon as a circle would be wrong.

For an example of the Hebrew word for ball in the bible, you have Isaiah 22:18 (He will roll you up tightly like a ball.....)

 

[Thief]

Circles and spheres do share some common traits.

They can be located by designating one point.
They can both be described by one dimension.
They share pi as a common trait.

The most simple of design.
Gravity takes it's 'form' in the shape of a sphere.

No wonder the singularity 'formed' before all else.