Can a person choose to believe?

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

I think so, though maybe just being open is not enough, as difficult as it can be to be truly open. Perhaps we have to make the first connection ourselves, a leap of faith? maybe that's the only way it can ever work.

It is obvious that ALL subjectivity works with choosing. What you say to like and dislike, it is a statement of belief that there is love or hate in your heart, which love and hate cannot be measured, which love and hate choose the words like and dislike.

All questions about agency, about what it is that makes a decision turn out the way it does, are categorically subjective. Who you are as being the owner of your decisions, your soul or spirit, what emotions you have in your heart, is categorically a subjective issue. A subjective issue means that the conclusion can only be reached by choosing the answer, unlike with objective issues where evidence forces to a conclusion.

I think you, and religious people generally, should tow this line of support for generic subjectivity, expression of emotion in general. It is bad enough that throngs of atheists / evolutionists don't understand subjectivity, but religious believers like yourself, you should openly and explicitly support subjectivity.

I get a lot of nonsense from atheists / evolutionists rejecting subjectivity, and minimal support from religious people.

I am not only right, I am obviously right. When you look at the structure of common discourse when people talk in terms of choosing, then they talk with this logic that it is fact that a decision is made, fact what the options are, fact the way the decision turns out, but it is regarded as opinion what it is that makes the decision turn out the way it does. It is love of something, or hate, which made the decision turn out the way it does, courage or recklessness. Both conclusions are logically valid, unlike with issues of fact where only the single conclusion forced by evidence can ever be valid. The evidence is reasonably clear in common discourse, and the evidence is easily available to all.

Religious people must get out of this atmosphere of each one having their own idiosyncratic thoughts about it, and assert the common fact that free will is real. Assert that the structure of common subjectivity is valid. Make people pay the price if they step out of line, much as an evolutionist makes people pay the price if somebody denies evolution. It is humanly not acceptable to deny freedom is real, or to deny subjectivity is valid, it is humanly very acceptable on the other hand to deny evolution theory is false.

Even on might think of a scenario where knowledge of evolution theory is needed to save some lives, so that humanly one would have to accept it, the knowledge about how choosing works, and the acceptance of subjectivity saves many more lives, and helps to fullfil more lives. Which means there needs to be some broadly carried discipline to accept the fact that freedom is real, and accept the validity of subjetivity among religious people in general.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

It is obvious that ALL subjectivity works with choosing. What you say to like and dislike, it is a statement of belief that there is love or hate in your heart, which love and hate cannot be measured, which love and hate choose the words like and dislike.

All questions about agency, about what it is that makes a decision turn out the way it does, are categorically subjective. Who you are as being the owner of your decisions, your soul or spirit, what emotions you have in your heart, is categorically a subjective issue. A subjective issue means that the conclusion can only be reached by choosing the answer, unlike with objective issues where evidence forces to a conclusion.

I think you, and religious people generally, should tow this line of support for generic subjectivity, expression of emotion in general. It is bad enough that throngs of atheists / evolutionists don't understand subjectivity, but religious believers like yourself, you should openly and explicitly support subjectivity.

I get a lot of nonsense from atheists / evolutionists rejecting subjectivity, and minimal support from religious people.

I am not only right, I am obviously right. When you look at the structure of common discourse when people talk in terms of choosing, then they talk with this logic that it is fact that a decision is made, fact what the options are, fact the way the decision turns out, but it is regarded as opinion what it is that makes the decision turn out the way it does. It is love of something, or hate, which made the decision turn out the way it does, courage or recklessness. Both conclusions are logically valid, unlike with issues of fact where only the single conclusion forced by evidence can ever be valid. The evidence is reasonably clear in common discourse, and the evidence is easily available to all.

Religious people must get out of this atmosphere of each one having their own idiosyncratic thoughts about it, and assert the common fact that free will is real. Assert that the structure of common subjectivity is valid. Make people pay the price if they step out of line, much as an evolutionist makes people pay the price if somebody denies evolution. It is humanly not acceptable to deny freedom is real, or to deny subjectivity is valid, it is humanly very acceptable on the other hand to deny evolution theory is false.

Even on might think of a scenario where knowledge of evolution theory is needed to save some lives, so that humanly one would have to accept it, the knowledge about how choosing works, and the acceptance of subjectivity saves many more lives, and helps to fullfil more lives. Which means there needs to be some broadly carried discipline to accept the fact that freedom is real, and accept the validity of subjetivity among religious people in general.

I think I see your point, though isn't all you describe simply called 'faith?'
There is a thread here about faith being the foundation of all knowledge. I agree , and (I think) with you, that acknowledging our faith, belief, choice, free will, is essential to finding truth, science.
Without it we assume intellectual superiority, claim 'proof'- and hence label others as 'deniers' etc.
In religion and science, the problems begin where people deny faith and claim inherent superiority, this 'justifies' forcing their 'superior truth' on others.
Maybe this is why atheist regimes are so disastrous? because denying faith is mandatory by definition, framing one faith as simply a lack of faith in another

Blind faith is faith which does not recognize itself.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I have a question.
I consider myself agnostic because I have never felt any certainty about a God. I haven't had any religious experiences but I also cannot say that I decisively do not believe in God (or anything else, for that matter).
The only thing I know is that I don't know.
However, I have visited temples and churches. Sometimes because of my studies, sometimes because I was simply interested. In a Christian Pentecostal movement, I met some really nice (and extremely enthusiastic) people who told me that faith was a matter of choice. At one point, you simply have to decide to believe and reach out to God and then he will reach out to you. They told me that many of them had had doubts of their own, and they only went away when they completely devoted themselves to their faith and their church

IOW, their doubts went away when they chucked reason and their reasonable doubts.

I simply don't understand. Or maybe I'm just not capable of doing what they say. How can you reach out to God if you're not even sure to whom or what you are speaking?

You can't. Their need to put aside their doubt leads to the spiritual dead end of self-deception. Living with doubt is our fate, but those who do are the only ones whose hope is worthwhile.

The same is for people who say they "decided" to join a specific group or community. How is it possible to choose what to believe? Either you believe it or you don't, right?

I have all kinds of beliefs, including a belief in a reasonable (deistic) God. But in the end, all I have is hope that oblivion is not what awaits us all. We've been set in the exquisitely reasonable universe. If that was intentional, the example of our reasonable surroundings must be an indication of how to think, i.e. reasonably. If there is a "Word of God", that must be it.

I am curious what your experiences are in this area. Especially those of you who are believers - was it a deliberate choice you made? Or did you simple "feel" it was the truth some day, whether you wanted to believe it or not?

Mine was a deliberate choice to abandon such blind faith. It was traumatic at first, given my upbringing, but it lead to an internal peace I never felt with blind faith. BTW, I believe faith is a necessary partner with reason. I use the analogy of a ship. Reason is the driver at the controls, while faith is the engine/motivation. Without reason, we are blind and end up on the rocks; and without faith, we're dead in the water. Faith, another name for emotion, is our life force, energy and motivation for living. It is vital, but on its own, it's in chaos.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

I think I see your point, though isn't all you describe simply called 'faith?'
There is a thread here about faith being the foundation of all knowledge. I agree , and (I think) with you, that acknowledging our faith, belief, choice, free will, is essential to finding truth, science.
Without it we assume intellectual superiority, claim 'proof'- and hence label others as 'deniers' etc.
In religion and science, the problems begin where people deny faith and claim inherent superiority, this 'justifies' forcing their 'superior truth' on others.
Maybe this is why atheist regimes are so disastrous? because denying faith is mandatory by definition, framing one faith as simply a lack of faith in another

Blind faith is faith which does not recognize itself.

No, you wouldn't say those things if you would understand how it works.

Science is obviously about facts, and religion is obviously about opinion, objectivity and subjectivity. These are 2 separate domains. Science has nothing to say about what is good, evil, loving, hateful, the existence of God, and so forth, simply because, these are not matters of fact, but matters of opinion.

Maybe in practise in science you would need faith, in order to find it important to do, to keep up morale to do science. But really ofcourse science is about facts, and not about any opinion.

I see little intention on your part to have discipline about the issue. I mean, what you say comes across as conversational, just your own thoughts, and not the facts of the matter. I mean, you don't want your understanding to be different from common discourse do you, as the logic of common discourse is also used in scripture? So you should have an attitude of passively trying to copy the structure in common discourse relevant to choosing, accurately, with discipline, and not have an attitude to actively try to imagine how choosing works, and come up with stuff yourself. Then we might still come to different conclusions about what the structure in common discourse is, but it is different from just imagining how things work.

Then when you are satisfied you have an accurate representation of the structure in common discourse, then you might start to imagine things about how this fits with the rest of knowledge, or perhaps where common discourse might be incomplete.

I see no discipline to enforce the fact that freedom is real with evidence, similar as like to enforce the fact that the earth turns around the sun, and many other facts. Which enforcing does not mean one is not free to discuss whether or not it is true, but you know, just give due consideration to the knowledge we already have about decisions made.

 

[FreeTHinker4eva]

I have a question.
I consider myself agnostic because I have never felt any certainty about a God. I haven't had any religious experiences but I also cannot say that I decisively do not believe in God (or anything else, for that matter).
The only thing I know is that I don't know.
However, I have visited temples and churches. Sometimes because of my studies, sometimes because I was simply interested. In a Christian Pentecostal movement, I met some really nice (and extremely enthusiastic) people who told me that faith was a matter of choice. At one point, you simply have to decide to believe and reach out to God and then he will reach out to you. They told me that many of them had had doubts of their own, and they only went away when they completely devoted themselves to their faith and their church.
I simply don't understand. Or maybe I'm just not capable of doing what they say. How can you reach out to God if you're not even sure to whom or what you are speaking?
The same is for people who say they "decided" to join a specific group or community. How is it possible to choose what to believe? Either you believe it or you don't, right?
I am curious what your experiences are in this area. Especially those of you who are believers - was it a deliberate choice you made? Or did you simple "feel" it was the truth some day, whether you wanted to believe it or not?

Of course you choose to believe or not to believe. I read one reply that stated in part: '...No you don't choose.. then said you are 'convinced'-well to be convinced means you chose to allow yourself become convinced. Atheists choose, Agnostics choose, Every one chooses at some point in life. The proof for this 'choice' for Evangelical Christians is found within their own doctrine. For example: EV. Christians say baptism at birth by the Catholic Religion for example is meaningless because a baby can't choose. Debate ended. Also a basic Tenet of Western organized religion(s) is free will/choice. Sure they follow it up with dire consequences should you "CHOOSE" not to believe lockstep in their dogmas and doctrines as they do. All Organized religions aside-what you choose to believe about anything is all up to you and only you.

 

[Midget01]

I have a question.
I consider myself agnostic because I have never felt any certainty about a God. I haven't had any religious experiences but I also cannot say that I decisively do not believe in God (or anything else, for that matter).
The only thing I know is that I don't know.
However, I have visited temples and churches. Sometimes because of my studies, sometimes because I was simply interested. In a Christian Pentecostal movement, I met some really nice (and extremely enthusiastic) people who told me that faith was a matter of choice. At one point, you simply have to decide to believe and reach out to God and then he will reach out to you. They told me that many of them had had doubts of their own, and they only went away when they completely devoted themselves to their faith and their church.
I simply don't understand. Or maybe I'm just not capable of doing what they say. How can you reach out to God if you're not even sure to whom or what you are speaking?
The same is for people who say they "decided" to join a specific group or community. How is it possible to choose what to believe? Either you believe it or you don't, right?
I am curious what your experiences are in this area. Especially those of you who are believers - was it a deliberate choice you made? Or did you simple "feel" it was the truth some day, whether you wanted to believe it or not?

Actually Faith is not only a matter of Choice it is often viewed as a gift. One can be so inclined to chose to question their faith and in the process stumble on information that leads them to believe. Yet there are some who believe blindly. This does not mean they are choosing against their will or being lead or forced; but rather they just believe they don't have any reason to not believe. They just don't question it and they accept it. In many cases their faith is no less stronger or weaker then anyone else. Faith takes action for many of us. We learn from those who are placed on our path. One can only be so lucky before one has to attribute their luck to someone or something higher than themselves. A true believer knows after testing or being shown that things don't accidentally happen there are purposes to certain actions and one with faith discovers this leads them to a deeper understanding of who God is and how He works in their lives and others in this world. Those who don't receive the understanding either because they don't seek it or don't want to face what they come to encounter as a plan will not accept the concept that that might have been a God moment. Once you are on the path you discover all moments lead to God. Which is what we read stories about from those who later became saints or lately we are seeing more religious type movies and songs coming out that express experiences of how God is working in their lives or the lives of others. One can force someone to become a certain faith by pointing a gun to their head and demanding that they recite certain rituals but like St. Paul indicates that when placed in a prison no one can contain you there. He is not making a reference to exiting the prison bodily but rather spiritually one's mind and soul can wonder and although someone sees your body behind bars does not mean you are totally there body mind and soul. Becoming any religion is a choice. We have to physically make the decision to be there and to be involved. To be a member of a certain congregation requires that you accept and believe what they have come to accept and believe otherwise you remain an observer all the time you are present. You can officially be baptized and state the words but if your soul doesn't believe what you have said and done technically you are not a true card carrying member. At one time in our history people practiced certain things and one could tell they truly believed what they said. This is not always the case today. This is what makes learning about God so difficult is we have a lot of Sooth-sayers in the group and it confuses people to know exactly what is being told about God. Almost any church that is worth it's weight in salt who calls themselves Christ has to be committed to Christ but how they practice it or believe it are 2 different things. We can share and read the same thing in the bible but have different understandings because in each faith we are taught to get a different understanding from what we read. If you are wanting to know more attend many different faiths. But realize even when you are watching and experiencing you are only getting a small view of what that faith truly represents. you have no idea if the person sitting next to you is a strong deep believer or if they merely do what is necessary to get by. Meeting God takes work but when you discover Him there is no doubt whether you have found Him. Some people stumble on Him but it is usually because someone else prayed for that to happen such as St. Augustine who's mother prayed for his soul. Peace Shalom Salaam Siochianna Midget01

 

[knghtkings]

I have a question.
I consider myself agnostic because I have never felt any certainty about a God. I haven't had any religious experiences but I also cannot say that I decisively do not believe in God (or anything else, for that matter).
The only thing I know is that I don't know.
However, I have visited temples and churches. Sometimes because of my studies, sometimes because I was simply interested. In a Christian Pentecostal movement, I met some really nice (and extremely enthusiastic) people who told me that faith was a matter of choice. At one point, you simply have to decide to believe and reach out to God and then he will reach out to you. They told me that many of them had had doubts of their own, and they only went away when they completely devoted themselves to their faith and their church.
I simply don't understand. Or maybe I'm just not capable of doing what they say. How can you reach out to God if you're not even sure to whom or what you are speaking?
The same is for people who say they "decided" to join a specific group or community. How is it possible to choose what to believe? Either you believe it or you don't, right?
I am curious what your experiences are in this area. Especially those of you who are believers - was it a deliberate choice you made? Or did you simple "feel" it was the truth some day, whether you wanted to believe it or not?

=====================================================
Hi Belief is the key to Religion There are many religions and almost all are false. So how does one determine what to believe and at the same time try to determine if what you believe is the true or just what you are told or what you want/or hope is true.
So I started with some basic thoughts
by asking these questions, Could the earth and our solar system have happened accidently, could life have evolved from scratch by accident
Or is there intelligent design behind everything. I don't believe the stars , earth the sun and soforth came about by accident, nor did life just evolve, evolution is the biggest lie ever created Thank you Mr Darwin.. Show me an eye that evolved.
which came first the the egg or the chicken.
It is a known fact that Gravity declines at a certain rate that is fixed. if we reversed the decline of gravity we find that between 7 thousand and ten thousand year ago nothing could of survived on earth because gravity would of crushed them.
Which in itself proves evolution is the lie.
The Bible describes Dinosaurs in the book of Job I believe they were here till the world wide flood where all life was killed. So this would of been a very plain explination of how they became extinct . In fact there are legends around the world of men who fought these Dinosaurs and in each account the methods used was alway very nearly the same way
These warriors with some sort of sword would alway strive to cripple one of its arms and then after doing this they were able to kill it. there is a shrine or monument in England somewhere that honors some warriors and I believe there is another in Denmark or near where the Vikings lived. So In my studies more and more I found the bible to be a reliable source of information.. and thus I believe in God as our Creator, and that he has a personal interest in us and So thus I believe the Gospel of the Bible and that God has made it very simple to get eternal life. If you believe in God and His son who came and paid our sin debt in full by shedding his blood for us, and took our place suffering our punishment for our sin for everyone that believes in Him., only those that don't believe in Him will suffer eternal torment. He will not force you to believe in Him
But John 5;24 is His promise to us "Verily, Verily I say unto you , He that heareth my word and believeth on Him that sent m .hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.

 

[Deadtroopers]

Nerissa,
To me what you are saying makes no sense. How can you come to know some?? With a person you can spend time with that person, and the more time you spend with that person the better you come to know that person.
How exactly, do you expect to have faith in God when you do not spend time with Him. When a person prays, he is speaking to God, and when a person reads the Bible, God is speaking to him.
What is the reason that a person would want to know God, Heb 11:6. For most people the desire to know God is innate, and Christian Exestentialism is the desire to find and know your Creator. Most people believe that there is a God who is responsible for all good things that we have, including our lives. It seem that most people have the desire within them to look for and worship something greater than themselves.
God has had a book written to all people, a book unique in all the world, a book that is completely accurate, even though it has been written by 40 men, over a period of 1,610. This alone, to a reasonable person, is manifest the impossibility of this, without a God guiding the writers, 2Tim 3:16,17, 2Pet 1:20,21.
Then consider all that God created!! Everything we see is a miracle to us. Nature is studied constantly to find things in nature that can help mankind to enjoy a better life. When someone discovers a way to copy the original creation of something, he is extolled as a great creator, while not even thinking about the Great Creator that created the real thing.
This is without excuse! Rom 1:18-23.
The greatest single proof, to many people, that there is a God, is that about one third of the Bible is prophecy. When you consider that man cannot, with 100% accuracy, prophesy what the next day will bring, and God has prophesied many, many times, with perfect accuracy, short prophecies, and others extending for thousands of years. Any reasonable person knows this cannot happen without a God guiding the writing, and being able to make certain that what He says always is fulfilled, Isa 14:24-27, 55:11.
Another thing that should prove the existence of God, is the information that is contained in the Holy Scriptures, that no one on earth knew, when these things were written. Things such that the earth is round, and that is has been hung on nothing, Job 26:7,10, Isa 40:22. Even though a seemingly simple thing as the rabbit chewing it's cud, was denied by scientists until the middle of the 19th century.
Another miraculous thing, the appearing on earth, the Son of God, and him fulfilling scores of prophecies recorded that he should do on earth.
For a second, let's go to mathematicians, of today, to get an idea of the odds of things happening as they have, without an Almighty God, and creator. Mathematicians say that any fulfilling of the prophecies about Jesus, would be completely impossible, if they went past 10. Most of the prophecies about Jesus, Jesus had no possible control over.
Even more astounding is the impossibility of creation being as it is without a God. Mathematicians again say that when the odds are above 40,000 to 1, it cannot happen. That say the odds of creation being as it is stands at, every atom in the known universe to 1. I would say that if anything could prove something to a thinking person, that should do it.
There MUST be a God!!! He even gives us His name, so that we can distinguish Him from every other, called gods, and can call on Him at any time. That Holy Name is Jehovah!!!

Jesus was manufactured from the "prophecies". Of course, bits of Jewish writings had to be taken out of context; mistranslated/misunderstood and cobbled together with other bits and bats that didn't have anything to do with one another. Thor and Zeus have also given us their names; as have Kali and Amaterasu. Gee, they must be real as well! Nothing is inherently unstable; the maths dictates somethings ie. universes have to pop out of nothing. Napoleon was told the God Hypothesis was unneeded over 200 years ago. It is even more unneccessary now. See Krauss, A Universe From Nothing, passim.

 

[Deadtroopers]

Very good question. Let me tell you that most religions are based around belief. I am one of the many who are not interested in believing, only in knowing. I found that there is some proof that the Torah (Jewish Bible) is a book from God. There are lots of prophecies that have come true, for example, the nation of Israel will be scattered among all the other nations, like they are today. Also, there are some codes in the Torah, predicting future events, such as "Holocaust." Feel free to look up "Torah codes." The point is that this book could only have been written by God. I'm not saying that this is "the right religion" and everyone should convert. Far from that. I'm just saying that Judaism seems to me the most logical and rational.

The same methodology was used on Moby Dick. Guess what happened? As for prophecies; far more are unfulfilled. Daniel, a book claiming to be written 400 years earlier than in truth, begins to go wrong when it reaches its actual present for instance. Ask a rabbi; 99% would tell you you were talking tripe.

 

[Deadtroopers]

So by extension I should assume that you are certain that life just sprung up spontaneously and then started forming fantastic creations all on its own without any intelligent force or designer? Some mindless “process” willed wings and feathers and eyeballs and livers all into existence? And that is not an act of faith? That is not a choice to believe such?

People choose to believe in God because it is rational and makes far more sense than no higher intelligence. There is compelling accounts of divine intervention by the followers of the Judeo or Christian faiths. I cannot speak for Hindus, Buddhists, Animist, Muslims or other tribes but I am certain as the Bible says that the desire for God is written it upon the hearts of man.

Of course the unbeliever will deny every sign or miracle provided by God. And their “rationale” for not believing only tells me they are choosing not to believe. Why, I cannot say.

Of course the believer will affirm every "sign" or "miracle" provided by God. And their “rationale” for believing only tells me they are choosing to believe. Why, I can say. You are nuts.

 

[Deadtroopers]

=====================================================
Hi Belief is the key to Religion There are many religions and almost all are false. So how does one determine what to believe and at the same time try to determine if what you believe is the true or just what you are told or what you want/or hope is true.
So I started with some basic thoughts
by asking these questions, Could the earth and our solar system have happened accidently, could life have evolved from scratch by accident
Or is there intelligent design behind everything. I don't believe the stars , earth the sun and soforth came about by accident, nor did life just evolve, evolution is the biggest lie ever created Thank you Mr Darwin.. Show me an eye that evolved.
which came first the the egg or the chicken.
It is a known fact that Gravity declines at a certain rate that is fixed. if we reversed the decline of gravity we find that between 7 thousand and ten thousand year ago nothing could of survived on earth because gravity would of crushed them.
Which in itself proves evolution is the lie.
The Bible describes Dinosaurs in the book of Job I believe they were here till the world wide flood where all life was killed. So this would of been a very plain explination of how they became extinct . In fact there are legends around the world of men who fought these Dinosaurs and in each account the methods used was alway very nearly the same way
These warriors with some sort of sword would alway strive to cripple one of its arms and then after doing this they were able to kill it. there is a shrine or monument in England somewhere that honors some warriors and I believe there is another in Denmark or near where the Vikings lived. So In my studies more and more I found the bible to be a reliable source of information.. and thus I believe in God as our Creator, and that he has a personal interest in us and So thus I believe the Gospel of the Bible and that God has made it very simple to get eternal life. If you believe in God and His son who came and paid our sin debt in full by shedding his blood for us, and took our place suffering our punishment for our sin for everyone that believes in Him., only those that don't believe in Him will suffer eternal torment. He will not force you to believe in Him
But John 5;24 is His promise to us "Verily, Verily I say unto you , He that heareth my word and believeth on Him that sent m .hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.

The human eye is built "upside down and back to front". It has an unnecessary, and in some circumstances dangerous, blind spot. We get back-ache because our spines are "designed" to be horizontal. You have a brain that is "designed" to be crap at thinking. That there is no mind behind evolution is obvious from the results. Either that or you have a god who is crap at creation.

 

[Deadtroopers]

Actually Faith is not only a matter of Choice it is often viewed as a gift. One can be so inclined to chose to question their faith and in the process stumble on information that leads them to believe. Yet there are some who believe blindly. This does not mean they are choosing against their will or being lead or forced; but rather they just believe they don't have any reason to not believe. They just don't question it and they accept it. In many cases their faith is no less stronger or weaker then anyone else. Faith takes action for many of us. We learn from those who are placed on our path. One can only be so lucky before one has to attribute their luck to someone or something higher than themselves. A true believer knows after testing or being shown that things don't accidentally happen there are purposes to certain actions and one with faith discovers this leads them to a deeper understanding of who God is and how He works in their lives and others in this world. Those who don't receive the understanding either because they don't seek it or don't want to face what they come to encounter as a plan will not accept the concept that that might have been a God moment. Once you are on the path you discover all moments lead to God. Which is what we read stories about from those who later became saints or lately we are seeing more religious type movies and songs coming out that express experiences of how God is working in their lives or the lives of others. One can force someone to become a certain faith by pointing a gun to their head and demanding that they recite certain rituals but like St. Paul indicates that when placed in a prison no one can contain you there. He is not making a reference to exiting the prison bodily but rather spiritually one's mind and soul can wonder and although someone sees your body behind bars does not mean you are totally there body mind and soul. Becoming any religion is a choice. We have to physically make the decision to be there and to be involved. To be a member of a certain congregation requires that you accept and believe what they have come to accept and believe otherwise you remain an observer all the time you are present. You can officially be baptized and state the words but if your soul doesn't believe what you have said and done technically you are not a true card carrying member. At one time in our history people practiced certain things and one could tell they truly believed what they said. This is not always the case today. This is what makes learning about God so difficult is we have a lot of Sooth-sayers in the group and it confuses people to know exactly what is being told about God. Almost any church that is worth it's weight in salt who calls themselves Christ has to be committed to Christ but how they practice it or believe it are 2 different things. We can share and read the same thing in the bible but have different understandings because in each faith we are taught to get a different understanding from what we read. If you are wanting to know more attend many different faiths. But realize even when you are watching and experiencing you are only getting a small view of what that faith truly represents. you have no idea if the person sitting next to you is a strong deep believer or if they merely do what is necessary to get by. Meeting God takes work but when you discover Him there is no doubt whether you have found Him. Some people stumble on Him but it is usually because someone else prayed for that to happen such as St. Augustine who's mother prayed for his soul. Peace Shalom Salaam Siochianna Midget01

St Augustine is a poor examplar. I've read what he had to say for himself. He didn't have a "conversion experience"; he was a Christian the whole time. You can see that from the way he kept trying to force Manichaeism into a Christian framework. I also doubt he was as certain in his beliefs as he makes out. The "conversion" comes when he is getting close to the Imperial court and coming to the notice of folk who would kill him for not having a Christian belief.

 

[rstrats]

FreeTHinker4eva,
re: "Of course you choose to believe or not to believe."

Perhaps you can help me. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that. Since you seem to be implying that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that "x" exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that "x" exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that "x" exists or is true"?

Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your ability and technique. I'm suggesting them since I'm fairly certain that you don't already have a belief in them.

According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is "a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron" and who hides his gold at the end of the rainbow and if captured has to grant three wishes. So, assuming that you don't already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your ability and technique. I'm suggesting them since I'm fairly certain that you don't already have a belief in them.

That is more of the usual atheistic confusion of fact with opinion. Ofcourse it is the existence of things like love and hate which are a matter of opinion. God also belongs to that category where love and hate belong to.

The atheistic hordes....the sheer number of them....., and all backing each other up in their ignorance about how subjectivity works.

 

[rstrats]

Mohammad Nur Syamsu,

I do not understand what your comments have to do with your quote of my request to FreeTHinker4eva. I wonder if you might explain why you think that they do?

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Mohammad Nur Syamsu,

I do not understand what your comments have to do with your quote of my request to FreeTHinker4eva. I wonder if you might explain why you think that they do?

Seeing as that you don't specify what you don't comprehend, it means you just don't like what I said, and don't seek to understand anything,

 

[rstrats]

Mohammad Nur Syamsu,
re: "Seeing as that you don't specify what you don't comprehend..."

Specifically, I don't comprehend what your comment - - "That is more of the usual atheistic confusion of fact with opinion. Of course it is the existence of things like love and hate which are a matter of opinion. God also belongs to that category where love and hate belong to"-- has to do with your quote of my request to FreeTHinker4eva. Nor do I comprehend what your comment -- " The atheistic hordes....the sheer number of them....., and all backing each other up in their ignorance about how subjectivity works" -- has to do with your quote of my request to FreeTHinker4eva.

I asked FreeTHinker4eva if he might demonstrate his ability to consciously choose to believe things by engendering a belief in leprechauns. I just don't see what your comments have to do with that request. I'm simply asking you to explain why you think that they do.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Mohammad Nur Syamsu,
re: "Seeing as that you don't specify what you don't comprehend..."

Specifically, I don't comprehend what your comment - - "That is more of the usual atheistic confusion of fact with opinion. Of course it is the existence of things like love and hate which are a matter of opinion. God also belongs to that category where love and hate belong to"-- has to do with your quote of my request to FreeTHinker4eva. Nor do I comprehend what your comment -- " The atheistic hordes....the sheer number of them....., and all backing each other up in their ignorance about how subjectivity works" -- has to do with your quote of my request to FreeTHinker4eva.

I asked FreeTHinker4eva if he might demonstrate his ability to consciously choose to believe things by engendering a belief in leprechauns. I just don't see what your comments have to do with that request. I'm simply asking you to explain why you think that they do.

I don't understand.

 

[rstrats]

Mohammad Nur Syamsu,

re: "I don't understand."

Seeing as that you don't specify what you don't understand, does that mean you just don't like what I said, and don't seek to understand it?

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Mohammad Nur Syamsu,

re: "I don't understand."

Seeing as that you don't specify what you don't understand, does that mean you just don't like what I said, and don't seek to understand it?

What?