Can a person choose to believe?

[rstrats]

Falvlun,
re: "I can choose to be a chef, but that doesn't mean I'm going to instantaneously be one."

What is your point with regard to consciously choosing to believe things?

 

[rstrats]

Me Myself,
re: "Did I say always with any beliefs or did I say sometimes?

Would consciously choosing to believe that a supreme being does or doesn't exist fall into your sometimes category?

 

[Cephus]

"I want to be a chef" and "I want to become a chef" are generally understood to mean the same thing.

But if your minor grammar picking prevents you from understanding the point, then feel free to change the wording: Choosing to become a chef doesn't mean that you instantly become a chef. In other words, the failure to instantly obtain the thing you choose to do has no bearing upon whether it is actually possible to choose to do that thing.

Whether they are understood to be the same thing and whether they are the same thing is the point. We're talking about belief. Beliefs are positive things. You must actively accept that something is actually true in order to believe it. I rather doubt that someone who has never cooked anything in their lives could declare "I believe I am a chef" and actually accept it as factually true in their head. In fact, people who do that are declared mentally unhinged. Likewise, people who just declare that they believe in leprechauns, ghosts or any other ridiculous thing, they don't generate that belief because they declare it, they have to be actually convinced that it's true first, then the active belief comes along.

 

[rstrats]

Cephus,

While I think we are on the same page with thinking that beliefs cannot be consciously chosen, I think I have to disagree with the wording of the last half of your last sentence: "... they have to be actually convinced that it's true first, then the active belief comes along." Being convinced that something is true is the same thing as believing that something is true. It's not something that comes along later.

 

[Falvlun]

Falvlun,
re: "I can choose to be a chef, but that doesn't mean I'm going to instantaneously be one."

What is your point with regard to consciously choosing to believe things?

I was responding to your implicit argument that because we cannot instantaneously choose to believe something (your leprechaun example) that this is evidence that we cannot choose to believe something. This is not a good test for your position because there are many things that we can choose to do that do not happen instantly. Some things take time and effort before we can see the fruit of the decision. It is possible that choosing to believe something likewise takes time and effort.

I am not saying you were wrong (in this post). I am saying that your argument was bad, regardless of whether you are right or wrong.

 

[Cephus]

Cephus,

While I think we are on the same page with thinking that beliefs cannot be consciously chosen, I think I have to disagree with the wording of the last half of your last sentence: "... they have to be actually convinced that it's true first, then the active belief comes along." Being convinced that something is true is the same thing as believing that something is true. It's not something that comes along later.

I agree that might be confusing. You have to be convinced that something is true in order to believe it. The belief comes at the same time that the individual is convinced. Is that more clear?

 

[Cephus]

I was responding to your implicit argument that because we cannot instantaneously choose to believe something (your leprechaun example) that this is evidence that we cannot choose to believe something. This is not a good test for your position because there are many things that we can choose to do that do not happen instantly. Some things take time and effort before we can see the fruit of the decision. It is possible that choosing to believe something likewise takes time and effort.

I am not saying you were wrong (in this post). I am saying that your argument was bad, regardless of whether you are right or wrong.

But you are not choosing to believe something, you are choosing to pursue a course of action. The two are entirely different.

 

[Falvlun]

Whether they are understood to be the same thing and whether they are the same thing is the point. We're talking about belief. Beliefs are positive things. You must actively accept that something is actually true in order to believe it. I rather doubt that someone who has never cooked anything in their lives could declare "I believe I am a chef" and actually accept it as factually true in their head. In fact, people who do that are declared mentally unhinged. Likewise, people who just declare that they believe in leprechauns, ghosts or any other ridiculous thing, they don't generate that belief because they declare it, they have to be actually convinced that it's true first, then the active belief comes along.

I don't think you understand why I posted what I did. Please see my response to rstrats in post #85.

But I'll respond anyway to your post: My position is more nuanced than either "Yes" or "No" in regards to whether people can choose to believe. Of course people must be convinced that something is true (or at least, likely to be true) in order to believe something. As Cephus said (post 84) that's precisely what belief is: the conviction that something is true.

I don't think that we can force ourselves to be convinced that something is true. But that does not mean that we are powerless. We can indirectly influence what we believe by what we choose to read, who we choose to hang out with, and the things we choose to do. While I don't think that it would always work, I do think that in some cases it is possible to "fake it till you make it". We can also examine our criteria for considering something to be true. This would alter the standards, and it's possible that something is now believable because the standards were lowered, or unbelievable because they were raised. We could also start with some small aspects of a complicated belief instead of attempting to change our minds all at once.

In other words, we may not be able to change the belief itself, but we can change the environment in which beliefs are made.

EDIT:
I think I missed the most important thing we can do to influence our beliefs: We can want to believe something.

For example, I think the widespread belief in an afterlife comes largely from the desire for there to be an afterlife. We want that so bad to be true. And perhaps, for the things we want to be true, we unconsciously lower our standards for them, so that we can consider them true.

 

[Falvlun]

But you are not choosing to believe something, you are choosing to pursue a course of action. The two are entirely different.

Is believing something not an action?

 

[Cephus]

Is believing something not an action?

Not in and of itself, no. I guess it depends on how you mean it.

 

[rstrats]

Falvlun,
re: "I was responding to your implicit argument that because we cannot instantaneously choose to believe something (your leprechaun example) that this is evidence that we cannot choose to believe something."



That's not what I'm saying. First of all, beliefs have to occur in an instant. You can't believe -be convinced - that something is true AND at the same time believe - be convinced - that the same something isn't true. There has to be an instant when your one state of mind changes to the other. My reason for thinking that beliefs cannot be consciously chosen is because I have never been able to consciously choose any of the beliefs that I have, nor has anyone that I have asked to demonstrate such an ability ever complied with my request.

In order for a belief to be labeled as a choice, there have to be at least two options from which to select, and each option has to be able to be selected. In the example of leprechauns, there are 3 options: 1. believe that they exist, 2. believe that they don't exist, or 3. have no belief one way or the other. I am simply asking that option #1 be chosen.

 

[Falvlun]

That's not what I'm saying. First of all, beliefs have to occur in an instant. You can't believe -be convinced - that something is true AND at the same time believe - be convinced - that the same something isn't true. There has to be an instant when your one state of mind changes to the other.

I agree that the change from "non belief" to "belief" would be like an on/off switch. However, it does not follow that the choice to believe must be an instantaneous catalyst for that switch. Hence my example: The choice to become a chef does not instantaneously result in you becoming a chef.

My reason for thinking that beliefs cannot be consciously chosen is because I have never been able to consciously choose any of the beliefs that I have, nor has anyone that I have asked to demonstrate such an ability ever complied with my request.

And I think that is because your test-- your demonstration-- is faulty. It would be like saying that people can't choose to become chefs because they never miraculously became a chef before your eyes.

It is possible that such a choice takes time to percolate.

It is also possible that such a choice requires the right environment in which to flourish. For example, I could not choose to jump 10 ft straight up, here on Earth. But on the moon, I could* choose to jump 10 ft straight up. Your scenario offers only one sort of artificial environment, which likely does not accurately portray the environments in which we may actually be able to make such a choice.

*I am making an assumption here... haven't done the actual calculations.

In order for a belief to be labeled as a choice, there have to be at least two options from which to select, and each option has to be able to be selected. In the example of leprechauns, there are 3 options: 1. believe that they exist, 2. believe that they don't exist, or 3. have no belief one way or the other. I am simply asking that option #1 be chosen.

It dawns on me that there is another ingredient missing: Desire. Why would someone choose to believe that leprechauns exist if they have no desire to do so? Again, it would be like demanding that someone choose to become a chef in order to prove that such a choice is impossible, and when he fails to become a chef, consider this as evidence that it is impossible to choose to become a chef. Maybe he just never truly wanted to become a chef.

If no one wants to believe that leprechauns are real, then why would you expect them to choose to believe that leprechauns are real?

 

[Me Myself]

Me Myself,
re: "Did I say always with any beliefs or did I say sometimes?

Would consciously choosing to believe that a supreme being does or doesn't exist fall into your sometimes category?

For me, not really, for others yes. For many or most I think not.

It really depends. We are all different.

 

[Me Myself]

Only to the irrational.

What´s your evidence for that?

 

[SkepticX]

I see at least three questions in the OP:
1) In order to believe something do we have to be truly convinced or compelled (does belief have to pass through veracity filters)?
2) Can we believe proactively (can we convince ourselves to believe)?
3) What's the difference between proactive belief and pretense, and does that distinction matter across its full spectrum (is there a point at which pretense can turn into genuine belief)?

I thought these were well worded questions. Do you have your own responses to them?

I do ...in a nutshell:

1 is a semantic issue--depends upon the definition of belief in use. Belief is a problem term in that regard--means problematically different things, mostly when used in a religious context where it's often used to mean I assume I know (faith). It's also used to mean I suspect as well as I think it's true or I'm pretty sure it's true, also I've been convinced by rigorous investigation vs. I've decided to think it's true because I want to. So 1 is really all about semantics, and belief is what I call a fudge term because it begs for equivocation and just shifty usage.

2 is partly about 1, but as I understand it we can in fact choose to believe something, we just have to convince ourselves of it even if after the fact. But I'd argue we need a clear way to differentiate between what's arguably the pretense of belief (if perhaps very deeply ingrained over time and with effort) and genuine belief that has to get through our veracity filters (whatever condition they may be in). Then there's still the issue of how well those veracity filters function (credibility of belief). That gets muddy pretty quickly too though, when you go from belief in terms of things like "I went through a red light today." vs. "I was able to change a red light with my mind today." The former is so trivial on every level that it should land just fine in the consciousness without even activating any filters. The latter, not so much.

3 I'm not sure there is a difference, but as I understand it, according to recent research there does seem to be a point at which pretense/proactive "belief" turns into genuine belief. We've only pretty recently started hashing these kinds of issues out using hard science though, so how clearly any current research resolves any questions is pretty iffy (e.g. data showing brain centers lighting up in MRI scans doesn't really tell us a whole lot about what's actually going on, AFAIK, only that there's activity).

 

[rstrats]

Me Myself,
re: "For me, not really, for others yes."

OK, can you name something that you currently believe - are convinced - doesn't exist that you could right now, while you are reading this, consciously choose to believe - be convinced - that it does exist?

 

[rstrats]

Falvlun,
re: "It dawns on me that there is another ingredient missing: Desire. Why would someone choose to believe that leprechauns exist if they have no desire to do so?"

But could they? BTW, can desires be consciously chosen?

 

[AmyintheBibleBelt]

You have trouble with it because you value rationality. What they are trying to tell you is that they base their decision to believe on emotion, not reason. They decided to believe because it feels good to believe.

Or indoctrination.

 

[Falvlun]

Falvlun,
re: "It dawns on me that there is another ingredient missing: Desire. Why would someone choose to believe that leprechauns exist if they have no desire to do so?"

But could they? BTW, can desires be consciously chosen?

If your position is that people don't have the capability to choose anything, then it's sorta silly to debate about whether they are able to choose to do a particular thing. If you do not believe that we have freewill, or some measure of control over our decisions, then the answer to "can people choose their beliefs" is the same as "can people choose what cereal they eat for breakfast". In both cases, the answer is "No".

 

[outhouse]

How is it possible to choose what to believe?

Believe in yourself


Spirituality does not require belief or faith.


As a strong atheist, I feel I have a better grasp of the Abrahamic scripture, because I see it clearly with no apologetic bias.

The parables and morals and lessons ALL apply equally without belief in the mythology.