Can a person choose to believe?

[rstrats]

Falvlun,
re: "If your position is that people don't have the capability to choose anything..."

It isn't.


re: "If you do not believe that we have freewill..."

I believe we all have freewill to do those things that we are capable of doing.



re: "...or some measure of control over our decisions..."

With regard to beliefs, I don't think I'd call it control, exactly. However, I think we can submit ourselves to outside stimuli that might (or might not) cause a new belief to be engendered.

 

[Right lane]

I have a question.
I consider myself agnostic because I have never felt any certainty about a God. I haven't had any religious experiences but I also cannot say that I decisively do not believe in God (or anything else, for that matter).
The only thing I know is that I don't know.
However, I have visited temples and churches. Sometimes because of my studies, sometimes because I was simply interested. In a Christian Pentecostal movement, I met some really nice (and extremely enthusiastic) people who told me that faith was a matter of choice. At one point, you simply have to decide to believe and reach out to God and then he will reach out to you. They told me that many of them had had doubts of their own, and they only went away when they completely devoted themselves to their faith and their church.
I simply don't understand. Or maybe I'm just not capable of doing what they say. How can you reach out to God if you're not even sure to whom or what you are speaking?
The same is for people who say they "decided" to join a specific group or community. How is it possible to choose what to believe? Either you believe it or you don't, right?
I am curious what your experiences are in this area. Especially those of you who are believers - was it a deliberate choice you made? Or did you simple "feel" it was the truth some day, whether you wanted to believe it or not?

Maybe, for a person who is still trying to find themselves or find their way in life. But for a person who is comfortable and confident with who they are, no, I don't believe they can suddenly start to believe in God any more than they can suddenly start to believe in ghosts or vampires if the belief simply is not there. Besides, if a person was comfortable and confident as a non-believer, they would have no need or desire to believe.

 

[Bobbyh]

How can you reach out to God if you're not even sure to whom or what you are speaking?

You can realize that all information combined is one thing. And that God is of and within you, as well as being of and within all other information.

How is it possible to choose what to believe? Either you believe it or you don't, right?

The amount of information that makes up existence is a staggeringly infinite amount. There are hardly boundaries to the complexity of systems that can become. To fully understand "how" you can choose to do something, would require a deep understanding of all of the layers of information that go into making a human being.

But belief is not an, "either/or" type situation. The human mind is of the human body and is a biological system that functions based on input. There are countless mechanisms receiving various categories of input and translating it in correlation with other mechanisms maintaining similar functions which results in various outputs, etc. this continues throughout all systems and information in existence, and doesn't stop with a body or biology. Within these complicated relationships a sense of self realization forms from all the exterior projections on any given center. Under the right circumstances an ego forms that is capable of recalling what it and others perceive as its self.

So the belief is determined by circumstance, but the circumstances are determined by "local" relationships. The human body is capable of influencing local relationships. And the human body is influenced partially by the human mind. You have limited free will. Limited by the body, but still free to explore an infinite range of vectors to strive towards.

 

[NulliuSINverba]

How is it possible to choose what to believe? Either you believe it or you don't, right?

Well. Consider this:

You choose to believe that the earth is a sphere ... right?
You choose to believe that if you are deprived of oxygen long enough, you'll suffocate ... right?
You choose to believe that a red hot stove will burn your hand ... right?

Yes. Indeed. Religious belief is just another matter of choice. Ho hum.

I am curious what your experiences are in this area. Especially those of you who are believers - was it a deliberate choice you made?

It's more likely a deliberate choice their parents made for them ... so to say that their faith is a matter of choice seems wholly disingenuous.

"... children are the most important population segment to minister to because of their spiritual teachability and developmental vulnerability." ~ Christipedia

...

Developmental vulnerability?

Doesn't that sound rather totally sinister?

 

[Gambit]

How is it possible to choose what to believe? Either you believe it or you don't, right?

William James defined faith as the "will to believe."

 

[Cephus]

William James defined faith as the "will to believe."

But you simply cannot will yourself to believe anything. If you think you can, then by all means, will yourself to believe that you can fly, then jump off a tall building. Let's see how much stock you put in your new "belief".

 

[ether-ore]

I have a question.
I consider myself agnostic because I have never felt any certainty about a God. I haven't had any religious experiences but I also cannot say that I decisively do not believe in God (or anything else, for that matter).
The only thing I know is that I don't know.
However, I have visited temples and churches. Sometimes because of my studies, sometimes because I was simply interested. In a Christian Pentecostal movement, I met some really nice (and extremely enthusiastic) people who told me that faith was a matter of choice. At one point, you simply have to decide to believe and reach out to God and then he will reach out to you. They told me that many of them had had doubts of their own, and they only went away when they completely devoted themselves to their faith and their church.
I simply don't understand. Or maybe I'm just not capable of doing what they say. How can you reach out to God if you're not even sure to whom or what you are speaking?
The same is for people who say they "decided" to join a specific group or community. How is it possible to choose what to believe? Either you believe it or you don't, right?
I am curious what your experiences are in this area. Especially those of you who are believers - was it a deliberate choice you made? Or did you simple "feel" it was the truth some day, whether you wanted to believe it or not?

I believe that it is a choice... based on John 7:17:

"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, ... ."

Doing is action. Any action is a choice. When one chooses to act upon God's will as recorded in scripture, then as John says, the individual will know if it be true. In other words, understanding comes from trusting enough to do. A good action bears good fruit. You will "feel" that it is right.

 

[Doug Shaver]

The same is for people who say they "decided" to join a specific group or community. How is it possible to choose what to believe? Either you believe it or you don't, right?
I am curious what your experiences are in this area. Especially those of you who are believers - was it a deliberate choice you made? Or did you simple "feel" it was the truth some day, whether you wanted to believe it or not?

My experiences tell me that belief itself is not a choice. You don't come to believe anything just by an act of will. However, if you are sufficiently willing, then you can choose to act in certain ways that might make you come to believe. This is what Pascal recommends in the essay about the wager that bears his name. It is how I became a Christian, which happened many years before I heard of Pascal himself and decades before I learned about the wager.

 

[Doug Shaver]

I believe that it is a choice... based on John 7:17:

Could you believe otherwise, if you just wanted to?

 

[Falvlun]

Falvlun,
re: "If your position is that people don't have the capability to choose anything..."

It isn't.


re: "If you do not believe that we have freewill..."

I believe we all have freewill to do those things that we are capable of doing.



re: "...or some measure of control over our decisions..."

With regard to beliefs, I don't think I'd call it control, exactly. However, I think we can submit ourselves to outside stimuli that might (or might not) cause a new belief to be engendered.

Okay fair enough; I jumped the gun in assuming why you posed your question. It sounds like our positions are rather similar.

P.S. If you use the "reply" button to quote me, I get an alert so I know that you've quoted/ responded to my post. The way you do it, I don't know if you've responded or not until I come here and check. (I know, the horror! But just so you know, your responses might get missed now that I've learned to rely on the alert system.)

 

[NulliuSINverba]

I believe that it is a choice... based on John 7:17:

"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, ... ."

So you're saying that doing God's Will is indistinguishable from believing in God, correct?

Doing is action.

Unless of course, you're doing nothing.

Any action is a choice.

Unless of course, it's an involuntary action. Try to choose to stop the action of your lungs. Go ahead. Let us know how it works out.

The record appears to be 22 minutes in case you're feeling ambitious.

It's probably also worth noting that actions can be coerced. Someone might have a gun to your head. Or they might threaten you with eternal damnation. Is a coerced action still a free choice?

When one chooses to act upon God's will as recorded in scripture, then as John says, the individual will know if it be true. In other words, understanding comes from trusting enough to do. A good action bears good fruit. You will "feel" that it is right.

Again, none of that says anything about belief.

 

[Gambit]

But you simply cannot will yourself to believe anything. If you think you can, then by all means, will yourself to believe that you can fly, then jump off a tall building. Let's see how much stock you put in your new "belief".

What about willful ignorance?

 

[Cephus]

What about willful ignorance?

What about it? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

 

[Doug Shaver]

What about willful ignorance?

Ignorance is lack of knowledge. Willful or not, if I don't know something, then I don't know it.

 

[Cephus]

Ignorance is lack of knowledge. Willful or not, if I don't know something, then I don't know it.

It would be pretty hard to purposely not have knowledge because in order to intentionally avoid it, you have to know that it exists in the first place.

 

[Gambit]

What about it? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Can we choose to be ignorant?

 

[Doug Shaver]

It would be pretty hard to purposely not have knowledge because in order to intentionally avoid it, you have to know that it exists in the first place.

Nonsense. If I don't believe it, then I don't know it. If you say you know it, then I know that you believe it, but that doesn't mean I know it.

 

[ether-ore]

So you're saying that doing God's Will is indistinguishable from believing in God, correct?

Unless of course, you're doing nothing.

Unless of course, it's an involuntary action. Try to choose to stop the action of your lungs. Go ahead. Let us know how it works out.

The record appears to be 22 minutes in case you're feeling ambitious.

It's probably also worth noting that actions can be coerced. Someone might have a gun to your head. Or they might threaten you with eternal damnation. Is a coerced action still a free choice?

Again, none of that says anything about belief.

No... not correct. It's like planting a seed. You are testing the seed to see if it will bear good fruit. Belief results from having performed the test and having determined that the results are good.

Your example of an involuntary action is absurd. The will is not involved in such a case. I'm referring to willful actions. Also, and of course a coerced action does not count either. The individual's free will must be engaged for it to count as a beneficial exercise.

 

[Doug Shaver]

It's like planting a seed. You are testing the seed to see if it will bear good fruit. Belief results from having performed the test and having determined that the results are good.

Fair enough. I performed the test. The results were bad.

 

[rstrats]

Doug Shaver,
re: "If I don't believe it, then I don't know it."

Can you know the truth about something and not know that you know?