Can a person choose to believe?

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

My belief in the existence of X is not based on emotion. It is based solely on evidence. I cannot believe that which is not evidently believable.

Then I know for sure all your personal relationships must be out of whack. Then you require to be forced by evidence to the conclusion that love is real, as if you can measure love. It means you regard the existence of love and hate as factual issues as well.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Hopefully, zero.

Hopefully.



So you're claiming that one could choose to not believe that 1+1=2, correct? Or that one can choose to not believe that Sheboygan is a city in Wisconsin?

Could you please explain how that works? And can you also explain how this sort of "choice" is to be differentiated from denial?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Now, how that differs from denial is probably a very thin-to-nonexistent line, but even then the denial is a choice, isn't it?

At some point as a child, either you or someone you know got this inkling in the back of their mind that Santa Claus was a sham. But, despite the tingle, they kept right along with the myth of the Kringle. It was a choice. Conscious of it or not, a decision was made and whomever decided to choose Santa.

I believe at every point in our lives, we make a decision of whether or not we will continue following the path of fables and myths that we've come to know since childhood. This includes everything from religion down to the trivial stuff that's rarely thought about.

1+1=2 only so much as I accept that it does. Belief has little to do with objective accuracy.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Faith is an objectivity before the imagination occurs.

There is nothing wrong with opinion, an opinion is not inferior to a fact. Facts are merely copies. An accurate description of the moon in a book. It is just a copy of the moon to a world of words, maths, pictures. The evidence forces to the conclusion what is in the book, 1 to 1. Copy, copy, copy, copy, that is all what facts are. You cannot copy God. Neither can you copy the soul of a human being, who somebody is as being the owner their decisions. And this is your true self, you as making the choices which make your life as it is.

An opinion is of your own, you choose it yourself, religion is focused on faith, which is a form of opinion.

 

[Cephus]

You don't understand how any subjectivity works.

That's because it's not a subjective claim. A subjective claim is saying you like vanilla ice cream. It is not a subjective claim to say that some imaginary friend in the sky created the universe and has a set of rules they want you to follow. That is an objective claim, you are making an argument for how reality actually operates.

Maybe you're the one who has no clue what subjectivity is.

 

[NulliuSINverba]

... how that differs from denial is probably a very thin-to-nonexistent line, but even then the denial is a choice, isn't it?

I hope we can agree that disbelief and denial are two different things. Yes?

The former is a response to a lack of evidence ... while the latter is a response despite a preponderance of evidence.

At some point as a child, either you or someone you know got this inkling in the back of their mind that Santa Claus was a sham.

Or was it the case that the evidence was eventually revealed to be bogus or nonexistent?

But, despite the tingle, they kept right along with the myth of the Kringle. It was a choice. Conscious of it or not, a decision was made and whomever decided to choose Santa.

Hold on. The scenario you're describing admittedly contains no actual belief in Santa ... only the pretense of belief!

I agree 100% that people can opt to behave in certain ways. That says nothing whatsoever about the nature of belief. What you're describing is a scenario where people no longer believe in Santa Claus, but opt to pretend that they do.

I happen to think that your Hypothetical Santa Scenario might be an all-too-painfully-close-to-the-truth summary of religious belief in our era. No real belief at the core ... only the pretense of belief. Habitual devotion. Call it what you will.

One might even go so far as to label it institutionalized deceit.

And it isn't necessarily unique to our era. Skepticism® is only a few seconds younger than Unvarnished BS®.

I believe at every point in our lives, we make a decision of whether or not we will continue following the path of fables and myths that we've come to know since childhood. This includes everything from religion down to the trivial stuff that's rarely thought about.

And I shall maintain that belief is predicated on evidence. In lieu of evidence of the existence of X, the rational response is to not believe in the existence of X.

1+1=2 only so much as I accept that it does. Belief has little to do with objective accuracy.

I think what you're describing is faith. Faith is typically the last arrow in the quiver after all the other excuses to believe on little or no evidence have been debunked. It has little to do with objective accuracy.

...

"1 + 1 ≠ 5 ... but I'm really hoping that some day things will prove otherwise."

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

That's because it's not a subjective claim. A subjective claim is saying you like vanilla ice cream. It is not a subjective claim to say that some imaginary friend in the sky created the universe and has a set of rules they want you to follow. That is an objective claim, you are making an argument for how reality actually operates.

Maybe you're the one who has no clue what subjectivity is.

To say you like vanilla icecream means also to express the opinion that there is love for vanilla icecream in your heart.

If the existence of that love is fact, then you get cause and effect logic, like a robot.

Really you express your emotion with free will, thus in a way choosing to say you like it.

But by your logic you are forced to say you like it, with your "factual" love. That is all whack, not the way things work..

 

[Doug Shaver]

How many things have we believed over the course of our lived that turned out to be false, but we kept on believing in them anyway?

Belief is absolutely a choice.

What do you mean by "turned out to be false"? Are you talking about my hearing an argument or discovering evidence that, in your opinion, ought to have changed my mind?

 

[Cephus]

To say you like vanilla icecream means also to express the opinion that there is love for vanilla icecream in your heart.

Nobody loves anything in their heart, the heart is an organ for pumping blood and nothing more. But to get to the point, there is a difference between expressing a personal opinion, like you love vanilla ice cream, and demanding that your personal opinion suddenly applies to everyone. Saying that vanilla ice cream is the best ice cream and everyone loves it, that's a statement about objective reality.

If the existence of that love is fact, then you get cause and effect logic, like a robot.

Really you express your emotion with free will, thus in a way choosing to say you like it.

But by your logic you are forced to say you like it, with your "factual" love. That is all whack, not the way things work..

You honestly haven't got the slightest clue what you're talking about, do you?

 

[Doug Shaver]

Trust me. I only know this from experience.

You're not the only one in this forum with experience. I've had quite a bit myself. It differs from yours, and it tells me I should not trust you.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Nobody loves anything in their heart, the heart is an organ for pumping blood and nothing more. But to get to the point, there is a difference between expressing a personal opinion, like you love vanilla ice cream, and demanding that your personal opinion suddenly applies to everyone. Saying that vanilla ice cream is the best ice cream and everyone loves it, that's a statement about objective reality.



You honestly haven't got the slightest clue what you're talking about, do you?

I know what I am talking about for certain. Subjectivity does not function without things the existence of which things, is a matter of opinion. So love and hate being real is a matter of opinion. But that doesn't work with your idea to be forced by evidence to the conclusion anything is real or not.

 

[NulliuSINverba]

There is nothing wrong with opinion, an opinion is not inferior to a fact.

Opinions are always inferior to the facts.

By all credible accounts, Elvis Presley died in 1977.

Those who opine otherwise are politely dismissed as cranks, if not ridiculed outright.

You are (of course) free to opine that Elvis isn't dead ... but that's your business and the evidence certainly doesn't support such a conclusion.

Facts are merely copies.

No. Facts are facts.

An accurate description of the moon in a book. It is just a copy of the moon to a world of words, maths, pictures.

Yet the actual moon remains a fact in and of itself. An existing object doesn't need to be "accurately described" in a book to be viewed as a fact.

The evidence forces to the conclusion what is in the book, 1 to 1. Copy, copy, copy, copy, that is all what facts are.

Aren't you mistaking the road map for the place itself? If you burnt every book about the moon, the moon would still be a fact.

You cannot copy God.

Sure you can. Copy and paste. Easy peasy.

Neither can you copy the soul of a human being

Before you can copy a thing, you must first demonstrate that it exists. Feel free to offer up your evidence for "the soul of a human being" at any time. Thanks.

... religion is focused on faith, which is a form of opinion.

Religions are like opinions? Is that why they call it fundamentalism?

 

[Right lane]

Look up the definition for the word "faith", sweetheart. The Bible states that it is impossible to please God without faith. God is the creator of the universe. Just pray to Him. There are no other gods. In actuality, we need Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior to have access to our Father. I never doubted the existence of God but I did question the Bible. My Lord revealed to me that the Bible was true. God reveals Himself to us when we choose to believe in Him. Faith is most pleasing to Him... I'M NOT TRYING TO PREACH, STAFF. I'm simply answering the question. We must accept Christ as Lord and Savior because our sins block us from God. God will speak to you if you talk to Him. Trust me. I only know this from experience.

How do you explain the fact that over a billion people do not agree with you. Who has it right ? You or them ? Do you really have the evidence to sweep over a billion people's beliefs aside ?

 

[Cephus]

I know what I am talking about for certain. Subjectivity does not function without things the existence of which things, is a matter of opinion. So love and hate being real is a matter of opinion. But that doesn't work with your idea to be forced by evidence to the conclusion anything is real or not.

No it isn't, we can prove love and hate scientifically, they are quite easy to demonstrate with an MRI. There is no subjectivity there. Try again.

 

[Right lane]

I have a question.
I consider myself agnostic because I have never felt any certainty about a God. I haven't had any religious experiences but I also cannot say that I decisively do not believe in God (or anything else, for that matter).
The only thing I know is that I don't know.
However, I have visited temples and churches. Sometimes because of my studies, sometimes because I was simply interested. In a Christian Pentecostal movement, I met some really nice (and extremely enthusiastic) people who told me that faith was a matter of choice. At one point, you simply have to decide to believe and reach out to God and then he will reach out to you. They told me that many of them had had doubts of their own, and they only went away when they completely devoted themselves to their faith and their church.
I simply don't understand. Or maybe I'm just not capable of doing what they say. How can you reach out to God if you're not even sure to whom or what you are speaking?
The same is for people who say they "decided" to join a specific group or community. How is it possible to choose what to believe? Either you believe it or you don't, right?
I am curious what your experiences are in this area. Especially those of you who are believers - was it a deliberate choice you made? Or did you simple "feel" it was the truth some day, whether you wanted to believe it or not?

Consider this as the answer. There are no gods. There is no such thing as magic. Supernatural things do not actually exist except in the minds of believers. People can believe what ever they want, but believing doesn't make it real or true.
The fact is, we live in a material world governed by the laws of chemistry and physics. All the supernatural stuff that people believe exists only in their minds since there is no objective way to demonstrate otherwise.

 

[NulliuSINverba]

There are no gods. There is no such thing as magic. Supernatural things do not actually exist except in the minds of believers. People can believe what ever they want, but believing doesn't make it real or true.
The fact is, we live in a material world governed by the laws of chemistry and physics. All the supernatural stuff that people believe exists only in their minds since there is no objective way to demonstrate otherwise.

 

[rstrats]

It's Ya Girl Jesus' Wife,
re: "God reveals Himself to us when we choose to believe in Him."


Are you sayin that you can consciously choose to believe - be convinced - that someone or something does or doesn't exist or that a certain proposition is or isn't true?

 

[It's Ya Girl Jesus' Wife]

It's Ya Girl Jesus' Wife,
re: "God reveals Himself to us when we choose to believe in Him."


Are you sayin that you can consciously choose to believe - be convinced - that someone or something does or doesn't exist or that a certain proposition is or isn't true?

I'm not sure.. I just know we must have faith. For example, any atheist can still choose to pray to God, expecting an answer. God reveals Himself to us when we step out on faith. Like, when I was in my teens, I just said prayers even though I didn't have any proof God existed and when I gave my life to Christ at age 18, the Lord revealed Himself to me.

 

[Nietzsche]

I'm not sure.. I just know we must have faith. For example, any atheist can still choose to pray to God, expecting an answer. God reveals Himself to us when we step out on faith. Like, when I was in my teens, I just said prayers even though I didn't have any proof God existed and when I gave my life to Christ at age 18, the Lord revealed Himself to me.

I guess all the people who've experienced other Gods, equally as powerful as you experienced yours, are...what, wrong? Delusional? Deceived?

Be careful how you answer that, dear

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I have a question.
I consider myself agnostic because I have never felt any certainty about a God. I haven't had any religious experiences but I also cannot say that I decisively do not believe in God (or anything else, for that matter).
The only thing I know is that I don't know.
However, I have visited temples and churches. Sometimes because of my studies, sometimes because I was simply interested. In a Christian Pentecostal movement, I met some really nice (and extremely enthusiastic) people who told me that faith was a matter of choice. At one point, you simply have to decide to believe and reach out to God and then he will reach out to you. They told me that many of them had had doubts of their own, and they only went away when they completely devoted themselves to their faith and their church.
I simply don't understand. Or maybe I'm just not capable of doing what they say. How can you reach out to God if you're not even sure to whom or what you are speaking?
The same is for people who say they "decided" to join a specific group or community. How is it possible to choose what to believe? Either you believe it or you don't, right?
I am curious what your experiences are in this area. Especially those of you who are believers - was it a deliberate choice you made? Or did you simple "feel" it was the truth some day, whether you wanted to believe it or not?

Jesus did Not "feel" it, but based his religious teachings on his logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures.
By age 12 Jesus already had a well-rounded biblical education to the point he could converse with elders - Luke 2 vs 42- 47
Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, "it is written..." because they were already recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Jesus said to pray as recorded at Luke 11:13 B for God's spirit to help.

So, I chose to believe by comparing what Jesus taught with church traditions or customs which I found were just being taught as Scripture but Not actually found in Scripture. - Mark 7 vs 1-7,13; Matthew 15:9

Is there anything in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount that you think you are Not capable of doing ? - Matthew chapters 5 to 7

 

[Willamena]

Given the glaring lack of evidence, I'm not sure what else to call it.

Evidence for what?