Can a person not believe in the God of Abraham and be a Christian?

[I Am Hugh]

The unmoved mover

The unknown knower, the unseen seer, the inhuman human, the universe isn't just gas and dust, it's love and God, and so God is love and gas and dust and whatever else it's cool or metaphysical to say it is. That's a fact.

The reason why there is something rather than nothing

Well, how can there be nothing. God is the something that is nothing and the nothing that is something. Isn't this fun? I think it is.

God caused Jesus to come into existence and it is Jesus who made this reality and who cares for it

He's doing a swell job at it, too, isn't he? Do you think if he were here to defend himself from such an accusation, he would agree with you and if so, why? But then again, as you've said earlier, it doesn't really matter. It's just a concept. Not a very well thought out one, but that isn't unusual, is it.

All those are from God, yes

Hmm. No. These things are Babylonian, for the most part, later infiltrating Jewish and Christian apostate thinking, and contrary to the Bible. Introduced from contradictory sources; the trinity is from Plato, the immortal soul from Socrates, the rapture from Darby, hell from Milton and Dante, the cross from Constantine, Christmas from Saturnalia, and Easter from Astarte the fertility goddess and consort of Baal. Satan. The so-called queen of heaven. You see? That's what happens when you distort the meaning of God to your own likeness. Deus Vult, Deus Ex Machina, Imitatio Dei, etc.

God created nature and that's how things turned out, through nature happening

Will nature destroy itself?

I take it you're a Christian?

No.

I don't see how the typical Christian minister is any better than some person at an airport

Worse in my opinion.

There are some real perverts and crooks amongst that number

That's for sure. And among the airport. In the world at large. Including myself.

Feeling a little threatened are we???

I think one of us are.

Oh wow, an Epistle! That carries so much weight! - probably written centuries after it is supposed to have been - who cares!

[Laughs] Yeah, reject the writings you ripped off the distorted versions of. How - what? Original?

And I don't have any idea what you are on about

I'm doing what I always do ad nauseum. I'm poking dead things with a stick. I'm asking questions and shaking my head in astonishment even after half a century of seeing with my own eyes the ridiculousness of mankind. Humans being.

I'm sensing a lot of hostility

Potentially. What's wrong with that? Isn't it natural and therefor of God?

Not such a than of independent thought, are we?

We? I'm not so sure about you, but I'm not independent of thought, no.

You're trying to shut me down

No, I'm trying to open you up. And succeeding. I'm poking you to see your response. What's inside.

Looks rather defensive to me, you seem rather fragile?

Fragile? Interesting. That's a new projection upon me I don't recall having received before. Is my fragility dependent upon your rigidity?

Why is the willow weeping? Why does the bough break?

And what are those creeping things?

 

[Eddi]

The "Trinity" concept is ridiculoys for numerous reasons . Do I need to list a few ? ---

I am not a Trinitarian, so no, you don't need to list any

The "Ex Nihlo Stuff" is your argument -- you have claimed that both God and Jesus created reality individually .. which makes no sense .in the context of "reality" nor existence.

Reality is simply the way in which Existence exists

It is that which is Real

God is the ultimate source of Existence - the unmoved mover etc.

But the agency of Jesus has shaped the way in which existence exists - it has created reality

Like a sculptor chipping away at a block of granite to create a statue

And reality works according to nature, rather than to anyone's will

Where did Jesus come from?

Perhaps from the properties of that which exists??????

I don't think any human knows for sure

 

[PearlSeeker]

He did

However it is worth noting that he got his religious ideas from the environment in which he was raised

Rather from considered reason

Is then Christianity religion of Jesus Christ (the same ideas that he got) or something else?

 

[Eddi]

First off, I have been using a tone with you that I want to stop using, I sensed you had a negative tone but I think I may have got that wrong, so I apologise for that - I think it is always best to give people the benefit of the doubt

The unknown knower, the unseen seer, the inhuman human, the universe isn't just gas and dust, it's love and God, and so God is love and gas and dust and whatever else it's cool or metaphysical to say it is. That's a fact.

Yes, it is a fact that Jesus is human and loving (IMO)

But the entity from which his existence emerges is not (although I suppose you could say it is, transitively?)

Well, how can there be nothing. God is the something that is nothing and the nothing that is something. Isn't this fun? I think it is.

Exactly, there cannot be nothing, because God exists

And everything that is real exists because there is something rather than nothing (which I call God)

He's doing a swell job at it, too, isn't he? Do you think if he were here to defend himself from such an accusation, he would agree with you and if so, why? But then again, as you've said earlier, it doesn't really matter. It's just a concept. Not a very well thought out one, but that isn't unusual, is it.

I believe he's more like the Deist God

That he has principles but also wants to uphold nature

I think we humans all have a part to play in this universe's designs, if God doesn't do it then it should be up to us

Personally I refrain from judging God too harshly as I don't know the whole story, nobody does

Hmm. No. These things are Babylonian, for the most part, later infiltrating Jewish and Christian apostate thinking, and contrary to the Bible. Introduced from contradictory sources; the trinity is from Plato, the immortal soul from Socrates, the rapture from Darby, hell from Milton and Dante, the cross from Constantine, Christmas from Saturnalia, and Easter from Astarte the fertility goddess and consort of Baal. Satan. The so-called queen of heaven. You see? That's what happens when you distort the meaning of God to your own likeness. Deus Vult, Deus Ex Machina, Imitatio Dei, etc.

You seem to think that there is a pure and undistorted God Concept?

Will nature destroy itself?

I think that physicists have not made any unanimous conclusion on that

They may have more of an idea

No.

OK

[Laughs] Yeah, reject the writings you ripped off the distorted versions of. How - what? Original?

I have not knowingly "ripped off" anything

I have however been influenced by the culture in which I exist

Is that really so surprising?

 

[I Am Hugh]

Just want to point out, I am agnostic about Paul (who wrote 2 Timothy)

How do you know he wrote it?

Something feels a bit off about him, I'm not sure what

A thorn in his side? Poor eyesight?

Maybe he did have the experience he reported as having had on the road to Damascus?

A metaphysical, personal experience?

But I personally don't accept his epistles as much as I do the Gospels

Well, we have to pick and choose our Gospels. What about Paul in the Gospels?

I think the Gospels are a higher class of scripture, I put much more weight on those

They are so - what? Wise and peaceful. What about Revelation of John as opposed to the Gospel of the same? Not so much? Everything and most people destroyed for being idiots? Hardly airport material. But like I said, we have to pick and choose.

But I was wrong to have dismissed him as I did in my earlier post

Who? God? Jesus? Paul? I don't recall Paul having been mentioned in the OP. Which earlier post? That thing about the epistles? I see you've edited the post. #137, yeah, about the epistles. People don't like Paul because he was a bit much. Interesting that you correct yourself openly. That is unusual. Why do you think you said it and why do you honorably retract it?

 

[Eddi]

How do you know he wrote it?

I meant to say that he has been credited as having wrote it

A metaphysical, personal experience?

Maybe

Who knows where it may have come from, if it happened at all

Lots of people have amazing and significant personal experiences that are a bit odd, I know I have

The question is: are they for others too????

That is unusual. Why do you think you said it and why do you honorably retract it?

Because I am a flawed human being

 

[Eddi]

Is then Christianity religion of Jesus Christ (the same ideas that he got) or something else?

It is the religion of how people understand Jesus Christ

Look at the huge range of differences there are between different Christian denominations

I don't think any one group has a monopoly on him

 

[PearlSeeker]

It is the religion of how people understand Jesus Christ

Look at the huge range of differences there are between different Christian denominations

I don't think any one group has a monopoly on him

Usually the differences are not about whether God revealed himself to Abraham. This is a strong common ground.

 

[Eddi]

Usually the differences are not about whether God revealed himself to Abraham. This is a strong common ground.

I don't know exactly what God did or didn't do

I wasn't there

So I go with what makes the most sense to me

Isn't that what everyone does really, for one reason or another?

I don't think that the truth is a matter of numbers

 

[PearlSeeker]

I don't know exactly what God did or didn't do

I wasn't there

So I go with what makes the most sense to me

Isn't that what everyone does really, for one reason or another?

I don't think that the truth is a matter of numbers

I distinguish between myth and hystory. There is no historical evidence (for now) that God revealed himself by appearing or speaking directly to humans. The only revelation I see, the only word of God, is the whole universe - the book of nature...

 

[icant]

Jesus taught to obey the law, down to the smallest brushstroke, down to the smallest law. (Matthew 5). It's pretty obvious that "fulfilling the law" doesn't mean that it is no longer to be followed (at least for Jews).

The Law was given to the Jews, but was never given to the Gentiles.

It is usually best to give a scripture that you are using to support your position.

"Matthew 5:--
[17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus came to do something no Jew has ever done or will do and that is to keep the Law. He kept it because they couldn't. They could do their best to keep the law while looking for the Messiah to come. Well He came and the Jews rejected Him, because He did not come like they expected, and wanted Him to come.

[18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

He shed His blood on the cross to fulfill the Law taking it out of the way.

[19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

If a Jew ever broke a law he was guilty of all.

[20] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The Scribes and Pharisees prided themselves in keeping the Law and He says you have to be better than them to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven

Jhn 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. Those two commandments are all that was ever given to Gentiles and Jews of the Church Age.

A Jew can not keep the Law delivered to Moses today as there is no Temple in Jerusalem where the sacrifices have to be made.
And there is need too:
Col 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Everybody gets to heaven the same way as Abraham as he believed God. God says He will give us eternal life if we receive it. You have to believe God to go to Heaven, that means total trust in Him.

Enjoy,
And Peace to you and Israel

 

[Sargonski]

I am not a Trinitarian, so no, you don't need to list any

Reality is simply the way in which Existence exists

It is that which is Real

God is the ultimate source of Existence - the unmoved mover etc.

But the agency of Jesus has shaped the way in which existence exists - it has created reality

Like a sculptor chipping away at a block of granite to create a statue

And reality works according to nature, rather than to anyone's will

Where did Jesus come from?

Perhaps from the properties of that which exists??????

I don't think any human knows for sure

Ok so this is pure made up fiction .. we could call Jesus anything .... some kind of vessel that God uses to create reality given any name you like.

Reality is existence .. got it and existence is reality .. OK .. ... did you miss my post about - I think therefor "I AM"

None if this has anything to do with what Jesus actually was .. unfortunately .. and while you say you are not Trinitarian .. you share the same belief .. the whole "Jesus is God the Father" at the end of the day .. 1 ringy dingy .. 2 ringy dingy .. but Jesus never claims this ... and you are misunderstanding the Logos ideas in John 1:1 .. which is not your fault as is a horrible mistranslation.

 

[Eddi]

Ok so this is pure made up fiction

This could be said about every person's belief in God and all religions

we could call Jesus anything .... some kind of vessel that God uses to create reality given any name you like.

I wouldn't put it exactly like that, I think reality is shaped and enacted rather than "created", I don't like that word

I believe that reality consists of a divine substance which has always existed, forget Ex Nihilo

"Jesus is God the Father" at the end of the day

Except I don't believe in "God The Father"

To me "God" is entirely impersonal so can't be father-like, it is the source of all existence, not some kind of "supreme being" (which I don't believe in)

Jesus on the other hand is personal

 

[Eliana]

I believe there are a few who border on idolatry but the real faith is not idolatry.

According to Judaism, Christians are idolaters. Their degree of faith doesn't matter.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Law was given to the Jews, but was never given to the Gentiles.

You get no argument from me on this. And Jesus was talking to his fellow Jews, not Gentiles.

The point here is simply that most Christians believe that the Law is no longer in force, and that just is not what Jesus taught (assuming these gospel accounts are correct).

 

[Sargonski]

This could be said about every person's belief in God and all religions

I wouldn't put it exactly like that, I think reality is shaped and enacted rather than "created", I don't like that word

I believe that reality consists of a divine substance which has always existed, forget Ex Nihilo

Except I don't believe in "God The Father"

To me "God" is entirely impersonal so can't be father-like, it is the source of all existence, not some kind of "supreme being" (which I don't believe in)

Jesus on the other hand is personal

Yes .. but your made up fiction is different .. it is not based on any religious text ... you pasted the name of Jesus onto your belief in God .. a belief not based on logic .. science .. nor religious text .. just a made up pontification du jour on what you think God is .. and you paste Jesus onto this belief about God .. for no rhyme or reason .. making no sense .. nor does your postulation about the nature of God make any sense .. or rather .. is a cop out the "God is everything" explanation and existential fallacy .. a made up monotheistic construct that you can't explain very well .. melding this belief with the Trinity "divine substance" Homoousios ... ding ding ding

 

[Eddi]

Yes .. but your made up fiction is different .. it is not based on any religious text ... you pasted the name of Jesus onto your belief in God .. a belief not based on logic .. science .. nor religious text .. just a made up pontification du jour on what you think God is .. and you paste Jesus onto this belief about God .. for no rhyme or reason .. making no sense .. nor does your postulation about the nature of God make any sense .. or rather .. is a cop out the "God is everything" explanation and existential fallacy .. a made up monotheistic construct that you can't explain very well .. melding this belief with the Trinity "divine substance" Homoousios ... ding ding ding

Thank you for your feedback

I will consider some of what you said

I am after all here to learn

 

[Betho_br]

It's not my place to define another's religious traditions, but my understanding is acceptance of the Abrahamic god is... sort of one of the baseline requirements for being any sort of Abrahamic adherent, whether Christian, Muslim, or Jew. They are explicitly (mono)theistic religious traditions.

The Hebrew Bible does not deny the existence of a pantheon of gods. It establishes that none of these gods should be worshiped before the face of YHVH; that is, the Hebrew Bible does not deny the natural order and energy of these gods in the cosmos.

 

[Ebionite]

According to Judaism, Christians are idolaters. Their degree of faith doesn't matter.

... because they held to the teachings of a well known Pharisee called Saul or Paul. The Pharisees were the theological ancestors of Rabbinical Judaism.

 

[Betho_br]

According to Judaism, Christians are idolaters. Their degree of faith doesn't matter.

YHVH manifested Himself in a dark cloud to Moses, and made it clear in the Torah that He would manifest Himself to a prophet like Moses. God has manifested Himself in many forms to humanity; nothing is impossible for Him, including fully manifesting in a man. This is not idolatry.