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Can a person not believe in the God of Abraham and be a Christian?

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
It is usually best to give a scripture that you are using to support your position.
Indeed.

Jesus came to do something no Jew has ever done or will do and that is to keep the Law.
Who are you to say that they are unable to keep it?

He shed His blood on the cross to fulfill the Law taking it out of the way.
That makes no sense, since the the law is part of future events:

Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.
Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write [it] in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.
This [is] the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about [shall be] most holy. Behold, this [is] the law of the house.
Ezekiel 43:9-12
 

I Am Hugh

Researcher
First off, I have been using a tone with you that I want to stop using, I sensed you had a negative tone but I think I may have got that wrong, so I apologise for that - I think it is always best to give people the benefit of the doubt

Benefit of the doubt; the state of accepting something/someone as honest or deserving of trust even though there are doubts. Our tone is negative. We disagree. Agree to disagree; to resolve a conflict (usually a debate or quarrel) by having all parties tolerating but not accepting the opposing positions. It generally occurs when all sides recognize that further conflict would be unnecessary, ineffective or otherwise undesirable.

Yes, it is a fact that Jesus is human and loving (IMO)

He was the firstborn, only begotten son of the father; the perfect (complete) representation (logos) of the Creator, Jehovah God, the father. Like his father he hated the wicked.

But the entity from which his existence emerges is not (although I suppose you could say it is, transitively?)

A verb? What does that even mean? An entity? He is was a man, a god, like Moses and the judges. The messiah. He was created a spirit being, but came, briefly to earth as a man.

Exactly, there cannot be nothing, because God exists

And everything that is real exists because there is something rather than nothing (which I call God)

Uninformed religious jargon is designed to obfuscate. The antithesis of Jesus' purpose.

I believe he's more like the Deist God

The English word God was used by the pagans and adopted by the newly founded Christian missionaries. It means to pour, to libate. In the Hebrew and Greek, in fact in every language known to man throughout history the word means mighty/strong one and is applied to anything or anyone that is venerated. The Bible for example, calls Moses and the judges, gods. Satan is the God of the world. (Exodus 4:16; 7:1; Psalm 82:1, 6; John 10:34-35; Genesis 17:1; Isaiah 9:6; 2 Corinthians 4:4)

That he has principles but also wants to uphold nature

Diseases are natural. He doesn't want to uphold disease. Death is natural, he has defeated death.

I think we humans all have a part to play in this universe's designs, if God doesn't do it then it should be up to us

We humans are part of Jehovah's creation, as are the spirit beings. We are stewards of the earth.

Personally I refrain from judging God too harshly as I don't know the whole story, nobody does

No one knows the whole story of anything, not even of themselves.

You seem to think that there is a pure and undistorted God Concept?

There is one? Where is one?

I think that physicists have not made any unanimous conclusion on that

They may have more of an idea

Maybe some idea.

I have not knowingly "ripped off" anything

Religion becomes corrupt over time through syncretism. You have to dig through the dirt to find the treasure. It isn't all about peace, love and good happiness stuff.

I have however been influenced by the culture in which I exist

Is that really so surprising?

No. The question is, are you more influenced by your culture than you are by your God or is the culture your God?
 

Eddi

Christianity
Premium Member
He was the firstborn, only begotten son of the father; the perfect (complete) representation (logos) of the Creator, Jehovah God, the father. Like his father he hated the wicked.
Yes - and???
A verb? What does that even mean?
Transitive properties!

Love is not a transitive property:

I love my wife
My wife loves the post-man
Therefore I love the post-man

Doesn't work as love is not a transitive property

Being digested is a transitive property:

I got digested by a shark
The shark got digested by a whale
Therefore I got digested by a whale

That works as "digested" is a transitive property

If I digest person A and then I myself get digested by person B then person A gets digested by person B
The English word God was used by the pagans and adopted by the newly founded Christian missionaries. It means to pour, to libate. In the Hebrew and Greek, in fact in every language known to man throughout history the word means mighty/strong one and is applied to anything or anyone that is venerated. The Bible for example, calls Moses and the judges, gods. Satan is the God of the world. (Exodus 4:16; 7:1; Psalm 82:1, 6; John 10:34-35; Genesis 17:1; Isaiah 9:6; 2 Corinthians 4:4)
Very interesting
Diseases are natural. He doesn't want to uphold disease. Death is natural, he has defeated death.
He has to strike a balance between nature and justice
We humans are part of Jehovah's creation, as are the spirit beings. We are stewards of the earth.
Why do you call God Jehovah? As far as I'm aware Hebrew scholarship is against this
No one knows the whole story of anything, not even of themselves.
Absolutely
Religion becomes corrupt over time through syncretism. You have to dig through the dirt to find the treasure. It isn't all about peace, love and good happiness stuff.
If that's a thing to live by then I'd imagine that a great many people would reject Jesus

I'm quite a fan of the Bahai's notion of "progressive revelation"

I think that religion becomes more accurate and practical through syncretism, through ideas interacting with other ideas

I don't think Bronze Age religion is fit for the 21st century so I'm glad that religion has changed since say for instance the time just after Christ
No. The question is, are you more influenced by your culture than you are by your God or is the culture your God?
God is a part of my culture

I'd even go as far to say that religion is a cultural phenomenon
 

Eliana

Member
YHVH manifested Himself in a dark cloud to Moses, and made it clear in the Torah that He would manifest Himself to a prophet like Moses. God has manifested Himself in many forms to humanity; nothing is impossible for Him, including fully manifesting in a man. This is not idolatry.
Aside from the fact that we don't believe G-D will (as in won't, not can't) assume a human form, that isn't the reason we consider Christianity idolatry.
 

Betho_br

Active Member
Aside from the fact that we don't believe G-D will (as in won't, not can't) assume a human form, that isn't the reason we consider Christianity idolatry.
Eliana, I have a question for you: What do the testimonies, statutes, and judgments that the LORD, the God of the Jews, commanded them mean?
 

Eliana

Member
Eliana, I have a question for you: What do the testimonies, statutes, and judgments that the LORD, the God of the Jews, commanded them mean?

Can you please rephrase this question into a comprehendible sentence? I genuinely have no idea what you're asking.
 

Betho_br

Active Member
Can you please rephrase this question into a comprehendible sentence? I genuinely have no idea what you're asking.

Deuteronomy 6:20-25 KJV
“When your son asks you in time to come, saying, ‘What is the meaning of the testimonies, the statutes, and the judgments which the Lord our God has commanded you?’ then you shall say to your son: ‘We were slaves of Pharaoh in Egypt, and the Lord brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand; and the Lord showed signs and wonders before our eyes, great and severe, against Egypt, Pharaoh, and all his household. Then He brought us out from there, that He might bring us in, to give us the land of which He swore to our fathers. And the Lord commanded us to observe all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that He might preserve us alive, as it is this day. Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us.’

Jonah 4:11 KJV

And should I not pity Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left—and much livestock?”

Is Jesus to blame if his teachings were distorted?
 

I Am Hugh

Researcher
Yes - and???

And what?

Transitive properties!

Love is not a transitive property:

I love my wife
My wife loves the post-man
Therefore I love the post-man

Doesn't work as love is not a transitive property

Being digested is a transitive property:

I got digested by a shark
The shark got digested by a whale
Therefore I got digested by a whale

That works as "digested" is a transitive property

If I digest person A and then I myself get digested by person B then person A gets digested by person B

So, aside from adulterous postal workers and the dietary concerns of ichthyology and cannibalism am I to reduce from your logical excursion that just because Jesus' primary goal was to represent the creator, Jehovah God, you have only interest in Jesus himself rather than his purpose? As if I didn't know, tell me what do you propose to gain from that? (John 7:16-17)

Very interesting

But not particularly useful to you?

He has to strike a balance between nature and justice

Does he? How so?

Why do you call God Jehovah? As far as I'm aware Hebrew scholarship is against this

Are they? Why? Written Biblical Hebrew contained no vowels, so no one knows how the name is pronounced. From YHWH Yahweh is preferred by Jewish scholars. Jehovah is English from JHVH. The Jewish scholars who insist upon Yahweh as "more accurate" seem peculiarly oblivious to the fairly well documented development of what I like to call "language." People who are impressed without looking any further believe the nonsensical claim and will laughingly refer to Yahweh while referring to Jeremiah instead of, if the nonsensical had any consistency, Yeremiah, and Jesus instead of the Hebrew or Aramaic Yeshua, or the Greek Iesous, or Latin Isus. Jehovah in Italian is Geova, Arabic, Yahuh, Azerbaijani, Cahweh, Russian Yakhve, etc.

If that's a thing to live by then I'd imagine that a great many people would reject Jesus

Indeed. Even without knowing it.

I'm quite a fan of the Bahai's notion of "progressive revelation"

Yeah. I got that.

I think that religion becomes more accurate and practical through syncretism, through ideas interacting with other ideas

No. It may be accurate to try as best as you can, with the distortions, but imagine if you formed your perfect religion and within a few hundred years it was the polar opposite of what you taught originally. Peace becomes war, love becomes perversion and hate, etc.

I don't think Bronze Age religion is fit for the 21st century so I'm glad that religion has changed since say for instance the time just after Christ

And other developments from that time? The wheel, writing, farming, the sword?

God is a part of my culture

Mythological supposition is the foundation of everyone's culture. Surprising that they **** it up so horribly? I suppose not.

I'd even go as far to say that religion is a cultural phenomenon

 

Eliana

Member
Deuteronomy 6:20-25 KJV
“When your son asks you in time to come, saying, ‘What is the meaning of the testimonies, the statutes, and the judgments which the Lord our God has commanded you?’ then you shall say to your son: ‘We were slaves of Pharaoh in Egypt, and the Lord brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand; and the Lord showed signs and wonders before our eyes, great and severe, against Egypt, Pharaoh, and all his household. Then He brought us out from there, that He might bring us in, to give us the land of which He swore to our fathers. And the Lord commanded us to observe all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that He might preserve us alive, as it is this day. Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us.’

Jonah 4:11 KJV

And should I not pity Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left—and much livestock?”

Is Jesus to blame if his teachings were distorted?

I don't care if Jesus's teaching were distorted or not since I don't believe in him or the Christian bible. I also don't regard Christian translations of the Tanakh, so quoting it to me is meaningless. Even if you had quoted the Tanakh, I don't see how those verses connect to whether Jesus's teachings are distorted or not. You also didn't clarify the original question, which I asked you to do.
 

icant

Member
The point here is simply that most Christians believe that the Law is no longer in force, and that just is not what Jesus taught (assuming these gospel accounts are correct).
John tells us: 1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
I don't have to go to Jerusalen once a year and offer my sacrifices for my sins. Jesus paid my sin debt on Calvary. All I had to do was accept His offer of a free full PARDON.

There is not 1 person that keeps the Law as there is no Temple in Jerusalem, but it will be in the future and the sacrifices will begin again.

God is not a trinity. God has been manifest to mankind in 3 differ different ways. Mind, body and spirit. We were created in the image of God so, we have a mind, body, and a spirit. You are not a trinity but you are a triune entity, and so is God. In John the tenth chapter 10 verse 30 "I and my Father are one"

In John 14:9 "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father"?
.

Jesus did not claim to be equal with God, but that He was God. People then could not understand that then and they still can't understand that the Mind, body, and Spirit are just 1 God.

Enjoy,
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
John tells us: 1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
Read the part of the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5 where Jesus openly, blatantly supports NOT doing away with the Law.
There is not 1 person that keeps the Law as there is no Temple in Jerusalem, but it will be in the future and the sacrifices will begin again.
There may be 613 laws, but it doesn't mean I'm required to keep every one. For example, I do not need to keep the laws that apply only to men. Nor do I need to keep laws that only apply to priests. In a similar vein, I am not responsible to keep laws that are impossible to keep. It is unlawful to make sacrifice anywhere but the Temple, thus, so long as the Temple does not exist, not only am I not responsible to make sacrifices, I'm actually forbidden to.
 

Betho_br

Active Member
Aside from the fact that we don't believe G-D will (as in won't, not can't) assume a human form, that isn't the reason we consider Christianity idolatry.
The prophets described the quality and type of worship offered in the Hebrew Bible, no further addition is needed.
 

Betho_br

Active Member
I don't care if Jesus's teaching were distorted or not since I don't believe in him or the Christian bible. I also don't regard Christian translations of the Tanakh, so quoting it to me is meaningless. Even if you had quoted the Tanakh, I don't see how those verses connect to whether Jesus's teachings are distorted or not. You also didn't clarify the original question, which I asked you to do.
God is merciful and wants to save the peoples, including the pagans.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
YHVH manifested Himself in a dark cloud to Moses, and made it clear in the Torah that He would manifest Himself to a prophet like Moses. God has manifested Himself in many forms to humanity; nothing is impossible for Him, including fully manifesting in a man. This is not idolatry.
Deuteronomy 19:15
"A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the Lord, your God will set up for you; you shall hearken to him."

I see nothing in that verse referring to any manifestation. All its saying is that God will give a successor to Moses, which was Joshua.
 

Betho_br

Active Member
Deuteronomy 19:15
"A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the Lord, your God will set up for you; you shall hearken to him."

I see nothing in that verse referring to any manifestation. All its saying is that God will give a successor to Moses, which was Joshua.
Deuteronomy 34:9-12 KJV
And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the Lord commanded Moses. And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, In all the signs and the wonders, which the Lord sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land, And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel.

The TORAH asserts that Joshua did not meet the requirements, even if he was heard by Israel.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Deuteronomy 34:9-12 KJV
And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the Lord commanded Moses. And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, In all the signs and the wonders, which the Lord sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land, And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel.

The TORAH asserts that Joshua did not meet the requirements, even if he was heard by Israel.
While both Joshua and Moses were prophets, there were some differences. As you note above, Moses knew God face to face (an anthropomorphism). Joshua OTOH actually brought the Israelites into Canaan, something Moses failed at. Saying that Joshua wasn't as close to God as Moses does NOT mean that he is not the successor to Moses described in Deuteronomy 19:15 "A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the Lord, your God will set up for you; you shall hearken to him."

In neither passage is any "manifestation" mentioned. You are reading something between the lines that is not implied, because you are used to it being interpret that way by your lovely but very different religion.
 

Betho_br

Active Member
While both Joshua and Moses were prophets, there were some differences. As you note above, Moses knew God face to face (an anthropomorphism). Joshua OTOH actually brought the Israelites into Canaan, something Moses failed at. Saying that Joshua wasn't as close to God as Moses does NOT mean that he is not the successor to Moses described in Deuteronomy 19:15 "A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the Lord, your God will set up for you; you shall hearken to him."

In neither passage is any "manifestation" mentioned. You are reading something between the lines that is not implied, because you are used to it being interpret that way by your lovely but very different religion.

1) Your message carries many theological implications and requires more expertise than I can offer, as my background is in traffic management and administration, not in language studies.

2) The birth of my daughter has taught me many lessons. Her mother comes from a different ethnicity, and at first, I would ask her to send me a "hi" on WhatsApp when she got home. In my culture, this means that upon arriving, she would send a message like: "Hi, I just got home, I'm safe, how are you?" However, she responded rather bluntly with just "hi," because in her culture, that's how things are—only what was asked for, nothing more.

3) I'll post the translation of a verse, and then I'll see a rabbi's commentary on it.

εκ του ουρανου | from the heaven ακουστη εγενετο | was heard became η φωνη αυτου | the voice of him παιδευσαι σε | to instruct you και επι της γης | and upon the earth εδειξεν σοι | showed to you το πυρ αυτου το μεγα | his great fire και τα ρηματα αυτου | and his words ηκουσας εκ μεσου του πυρος | you heard from the midst of the fire. דברים (Devarim) Deuteronomy 4:36.

מִן־הַשָּׁמַ֛יִם הִשְׁמִֽיעֲךָ֥ אֶת־קֹלֹ֖ו לְיַסְּרֶ֑ךָּ וְעַל־הָאָ֗רֶץ הֶרְאֲךָ֙ אֶת־אִשֹּׁ֣ו הַגְּדֹולָ֔ה וּדְבָרָ֥יו שָׁמַ֖עְתָּ מִתֹּ֥וךְ הָאֵֽשׁ׃
דברים
(Devarim) Deuteronomy 4:36. (35)

מִן־הַשָּׁמַ֛יִם – "From heaven" הִשְׁמִֽיעֲךָ֥ – "He made you hear" אֶת־קֹלֹ֖ו – "His voice" לְיַסְּרֶ֑ךָּ – "to discipline you" וְעַל־הָאָ֗רֶץ – "and on earth" הֶרְאֲךָ֙ – "He showed you" אֶת־אִשֹּׁ֣ו – "His fire" הַגְּדֹולָ֔ה – "the great" וּדְבָרָ֥יו – "and His words" שָׁמַ֖עְתָּ – "you heard" מִתֹּ֥וךְ הָאֵֽשׁ׃ – "from the midst of the fire." דברים (Devarim) Deuteronomy 4:36. (35)

TRANSLATION OF RASHI

35 has been shown to you. This term should be understood just as the Targum translates it: It has been shown to you.

"106. The verb הֶרְאֲךָ֙ is not conjugated in the causative hifil mode [‘you have shown’], but in the reflexive hitpa'el mode [‘it has been shown to you’]. If it were a causative verb, the Targum would have translated it as 'you have shown,' instead of 'it has been shown to you,' which is a reflexive Aramaic verb (Gur Arye ×, Mizraji). However, it is not really a hitpa'el verb, but a verb conjugated in the hofal mode, which has a passive meaning, sometimes similar to the reflexive. The pronunciation also indicates that it is a hofal verb, since even for Sephardim, the pronunciation is not har'eta, but hor'eta."


In the context of Deuteronomy 4:36, the Hebrew verb הֶרְאֲךָ (her'ekha) is indeed a complex form and can be translated in various ways depending on the grammatical conjugation.

As noted in the Rashi commentary referenced, this verb is not in the hifil (causative) form, where it would mean "you have shown." Instead, it is in the hofal form, which is passive, meaning "it has been shown to you" or "you were made to see." This passive form indicates that the action of revealing or manifesting was done by another party (in this case, God) to the recipient (Israel).

Thus, translating הֶרְאֲךָ as "manifested" would be accurate, as it conveys the idea that God actively revealed or made visible something significant (His fire and words). The verb implies that the people were made to perceive this revelation, but they were not the ones doing the showing.

To summarize:
- הֶרְאֲךָ in hofal means "it has been shown" or "it has been manifested."
- The use of "manifested" in translation captures the passive nature of the verb well, as the people were the recipients of God's manifestation rather than the agents.

However, I recognize, as I mentioned my daughter's example, that RASCHI does not use the word "manifest"
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Can a person not believe in the God of Abraham and be a Christian?
YES, absolutely
On RF the Christian DIR is under the Abrahamic DIR so I don't think I can really be active in there if I don't believe in the God that most people who profess to be Christians believe in
There are at least 5 options:
a) According to God you can be a Christian
b) According to your heart/conscience you can be a Christian
c) According to RF you can be a Christian
d) According to your mind you can be a Christian
e) According to the mind of others you can be a Christian

Seems to me that ONLY 1 truly knows
ad. c) RF is just a messy algorithm when it comes to judge people's heart and soul
ad. d) Your mind can easily get you off track on such delicate issues
ad. e) Others should mind their own business

So, the 5 options, after a little common sense, quickly narrow down to 2 options ... much more personal and less prone to error
 
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