Can all religions lead to God?

[CG Didymus]

How do we know that Jesus is the manifestation of a god? How do we test that? How do we objectively determine that someone is a messenger of a god?

It's easier with Jesus than the Baha'i prophet, because we have attesting miracles about Jesus. We have God saying that here is my beloved Son. Angels told Mary she was going to give birth to him. Then the angels told the shepherds. Then a star led the wise men to Jesus. He fulfilled all sorts of prophecies. What are the chances of that? Then his followers were eyewitnesses to having seen, touched, and talked to the risen Jesus. Then they saw him ascended to heaven. And then more angels appeared. So many "proofs." So what do you say to all the proof? All you need to do is believe the Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of God. Then I suppose you're going to ask how do I know that? Oh, that's easy... because it says so. How's that for irrefutable proof? Actually, compared to what most Christian do with Jesus, by making him part of God, making him only a manifestation of God is a demotion. But maybe Jesus is only a manifestation, because the Baha'is can prove it. Baha'u'llah said so.

 

[Milton Platt]

No, I would not expect anyone to believe based upon that kind of evidence.
Suffice to say that the Manifestation of God is the evidence that God exists, there is no way out of that.

Since we are all different in what we require by way of evidence that backs the claims of a Manifestation of God you would have to determine for yourself what would constitute evidence FOR YOU, and then I will see what I can dig up.

So what is the manifestation of god?
I honestly don't think you could dig up convincing evidence for me personally. I appreciate the thought. I mean, even if a god showed up in front of me and did a bunch of "miracles" I would still have lots of questions. All I would know is that I saw something that I could not explain.

Here is my take on the problem:
If there is a god, I would assume the god knows what would be necessary for me to believe it exists and the god would be capable of providing what was necessary. Since I do not believe a god exists, either the god does not wish for me to know, or does not care if I know or not. In either case, there is nothing I can do about it.

 

[Milton Platt]

It's easier with Jesus than the Baha'i prophet, because we have attesting miracles about Jesus. We have God saying that here is my beloved Son. Angels told Mary she was going to give birth to him. Then the angels told the shepherds. Then a star led the wise men to Jesus. He fulfilled all sorts of prophecies. What are the chances of that? Then his followers were eyewitnesses to having seen, touched, and talked to the risen Jesus. Then they saw him ascended to heaven. And then more angels appeared. So many "proofs." So what do you say to all the proof? All you need to do is believe the Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of God. Then I suppose you're going to ask how do I know that? Oh, that's easy... because it says so. How's that for irrefutable proof? Actually, compared to what most Christian do with Jesus, by making him part of God, making him only a manifestation of God is a demotion. But maybe Jesus is only a manifestation, because the Baha'is can prove it. Baha'u'llah said so.

You have stories about miracles. But define for me what you think a miracle is, because I have gotten differing opinions. I don't want to straw man you.

I can't believe the bible is inerrant until someone demonstrates it is (I don;t think it is)
The New Testament writers knew the old testament.....so of course they would make the New Testament stories look like they conformed to the earlier stories.
With one possible exception, there are no eyewitness accounts of the resurrection. And there are no extra-biblical accounts of anyone seeing Jesus or anyone else walking around after they were dead.
One would think that would make quite a stir.

 

[Trailblazer]

So what do you say to all the proof? All you need to do is believe the Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of God. Then I suppose you're going to ask how do I know that? Oh, that's easy... because it says so. How's that for irrefutable proof?

Nothing that the Bible says that Jesus did is proof that Jesus ever did any of that because the stories cannot be corroborated by outside sources that were written in those days. I suppose there are impartial academic scholars who studied the life of Jesus so that would be the best place to start.

 

[Trailblazer]

Here is my take on the problem:
If there is a god, I would assume the god knows what would be necessary for me to believe it exists and the god would be capable of providing what was necessary. Since I do not believe a god exists, either the god does not wish for me to know, or does not care if I know or not. In either case, there is nothing I can do about it.

You are right, because God knows all your thoughts and feelings even better than you know them.
So God knows what it would take to convince you.....
And since God is omnipotent, God could do whatever it takes to convince you, IF He wanted to convince you.

So we can deduce that God does not want to convince you that He exists. Rather God wants to have faith and apply that to the evidence He provides when He sends His Manifestation..

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

 

[CG Didymus]

You are correct Milton, but if Christ really did the things that were written in the book, then it constitutes evidence.
So the next logical step is to determine if Christ really did those things that were attributed to Him.

And that's the problem. Are the stories believable? No. But, if believed as true, they can and do work miracles in people's lives. So how is that possible? And your Baha'i beliefs work for you. So why is that? That's why I think it doesn't matter so much what a person believes. As long as you believe it, it will work for you. Which gives the believer an internal, spiritual proof that what they believe is the truth. You can feel it in your heart and it makes sense to your mind. Or, as with the case of Christianity, you make it make sense to you mind, but definitely they feel it in their heart.

 

[Trailblazer]

And that's the problem. Are the stories believable? No. But, if believed as true, they can and do work miracles in people's lives. So how is that possible? And your Baha'i beliefs work for you. So why is that? That's why I think it doesn't matter so much what a person believes. As long as you believe it, it will work for you. Which gives the believer an internal, spiritual proof that what they believe is the truth. You can feel it in your heart and it makes sense to your mind. Or, as with the case of Christianity, you make it make sense to you mind, but definitely they feel it in their heart.

It does matter because we should not believe just to believe.....
I mean we should not believe anything that cannot be corroborated with evidence.

You know that we have evidence for Baha'u'llah and what He did on His mission, and you know that what He wrote in His own pen is authentic, so it is not a belief that has no evidence to back it up. As for Jesus, I believe He did what it says He did in the Baha'i Writings for one reason: I believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God so I believe He knew what Jesus did without needing a Bible since He shares the same Spirit with Jesus, and thus Baha'u'llah remembered everything that happened to Jesus... So there you have it. Baha'i belief 101.

 

[Milton Platt]

You are right, because God knows all your thoughts and feelings even better than you know them.
So God knows what it would take to convince you.....
And since God is omnipotent, God could do whatever it takes to convince you, IF He wanted to convince you.

So we can deduce that God does not want to convince you that He exists. Rather God wants to have faith and apply that to the evidence He provides when He sends His Manifestation..

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

We could also deduce that he does not seem to exist.
The quote from Hebrews is nonsensical to me. I cannot simply decide to believe something. I have to be convinced by evidence (good or bad).

 

[Trailblazer]

We could also deduce that he does not seem to exist.
The quote from Hebrews is nonsensical to me. I cannot simply decide to believe something. I have to be convinced by evidence (good or bad).

The quote from Hebrews does not say you can simply decide to believe something and believe it with no evidence.
It says that God wants us to have faith (believe He exists).
Then we must seek Him in order to determine if He exists, and that is where we need to look for evidence.
If we are convinced by the evidence we believe; if we are not convinced we do not believe.
It says God rewards those who earnestly seek Him, but that does not mean we find Him.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How do we know that Jesus is the manifestation of a god? How do we test that? How do we objectively determine that someone is a messenger of a god?

The quandary, the Million dollar question. I guess it may take science to find that there is more to science than physical senses and that the world operates by an intelligence far beyond our capabilities.

Personally I have accepted the stories of people that have met a Manifestation. In doing that, I have had my own confirmations outside of this material time, that shows me, that we are more then flesh.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So what is the manifestation of god?
I honestly don't think you could dig up convincing evidence for me personally. I appreciate the thought. I mean, even if a god showed up in front of me and did a bunch of "miracles" I would still have lots of questions. All I would know is that I saw something that I could not explain.

That is exactly why miracles have been removed from the proof process. In the past, the Manifestation tried to tell people not to use them as proof, but, lets face it, people still like a good miracle. The greatest miracle though is a change of heart, it always has been.

Baha'u'llah could and did many things that were far outside what we would see is sound in science, but lets face it, look at the illusionists these days, they are remarkable.

So Baha'u'llah offered in this age, what the Bible foretold would happen and that is many hearts would be changed and ten thousands of saints would be the result. The question He asks is, what is it that compels a man to accept a Message and then offer ones life to that cause? No faith to date has seen such a large number of people embrace a Message and a great number were of the learned divines of the age. This is now history and we have to search History for these facts.

I do not see many, at this time, will choose to search that history to make that judgement.

Here is my take on the problem:
If there is a god, I would assume the god knows what would be necessary for me to believe it exists and the god would be capable of providing what was necessary. Since I do not believe a god exists, either the god does not wish for me to know, or does not care if I know or not. In either case, there is nothing I can do about it.

We can always do something, we do have that choice. You know we will always wish you well and most importantly, not matter what is offered, there is no compulsion in religion.

Regards Tony

 

[PearlSeeker]

Maybe it's the other way - sensible reality participating in ultimate reality. But it's still not the same. Show me for example a straight line or a perfect circle in "this" reality.

Show me those things in another reality......

This reminds me of Little Prince: "It is only in the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible."

No one can show you a perfect circle (the essence of all circles) but we all know what it is. We have an idea because it's intelligible.

See Plato's Allegory of the Cave or in the Philosophy subforum.

I'm not trying to prove Plato's philosophy. My point was just that maybe we have a term (for example Ultimate Reality) that better encompasses all religions. Then it means all religions aim at one point (however with different beliefs what it is, in what relation it is with us, how to approach it...).

 

[PearlSeeker]

Proof is for mathematics. evidence will do just fine. But the evidence for a supernatural all powerful all knowing being that creates uinverses and life would require an extraordinary amount of high quality evidence. The evidence presented tends to be "I had an experience" or it is anonymous anecdotal stories from centuries ago, or "faith". Sorry, that just isn't adequate.

If everything is created (or emanated or both) then nature is also a "book". Second, there is also the "voice" of conscience.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Admittedly, there are quite a few teachings, especially in Christendom, that not only contradict but outright confuse people!

But as far as Christianity is concerned, this variation is one reason why Jesus said His followers would be identified, not so much by what they teach, but rather, by how they would act....how they treat each other with love, even their enemies. John 13:34-35; Matthew 5:44.

Actions should cut right through any dogma.....

 

[BilliardsBall]

You need Jesus to follow Jesus, not gospels.


Koran is for Muslims, Christians need not worry what Koran says. You don't worry what your neighbor's wife wants her husband to do, do you?

No, I need to see what Jesus actually said to know how to follow in His steps--where His steps walked. A reason I've been to Israel twice.

The Bible, indeed, warns against anyone following individual revelation, even from "Jesus", not in the Bible!

 

[CG Didymus]

You have stories about miracles. But define for me what you think a miracle is, because I have gotten differing opinions. I don't want to straw man you.

I can't believe the bible is inerrant until someone demonstrates it is (I don;t think it is)
The New Testament writers knew the old testament.....so of course they would make the New Testament stories look like they conformed to the earlier stories.
With one possible exception, there are no eyewitness accounts of the resurrection. And there are no extra-biblical accounts of anyone seeing Jesus or anyone else walking around after they were dead.
One would think that would make quite a stir.

It's easier because they have the "proof" of the Bible, which is no proof. Who were the different writers. Were they based on passed down traditions? With the NT all the "eye witnesses" were Christians. They say Jesus did miraculous things that only someone sent from God could do. They say he healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, walked on water and raised the dead. They say they saw him alive and well after he was crucified, and then ascend into the sky. No one else did? Do we really know who these people were? Could they be making it up? Yes, because these so called miracles did, supposedly, create a stir. And I doubt very much that all of those "witnesses" of these healings and other things all became believers. So where is their testimony? Josephus? A couple of sentences that could easily have been added in?

No the Bible is proof only for those people that believe it is true and accurate and without error. What are the chances of that? You are right to question it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It's easier because they have the "proof" of the Bible, which is no proof. Who were the different writers. Were they based on passed down traditions? With the NT all the "eye witnesses" were Christians. They say Jesus did miraculous things that only someone sent from God could do. They say he healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, walked on water and raised the dead. They say they saw him alive and well after he was crucified, and then ascend into the sky. No one else did? Do we really know who these people were? Could they be making it up? Yes, because these so called miracles did, supposedly, create a stir. And I doubt very much that all of those "witnesses" of these healings and other things all became believers. So where is their testimony? Josephus? A couple of sentences that could easily have been added in?

No the Bible is proof only for those people that believe it is true and accurate and without error. What are the chances of that? You are right to question it.

This morning a quote telling of the person of Baha'u'llah came to mind and I thought I would offer it to @Milton Platt but as you have replied to him, I will offer it to you as well.

As suggested, a Messenger does not come to prove they can do miracles as they hold the power of all life, they can do as they please, except they choose to to God's Will.

So the passage that came to mind is from a person that met Baha'u'llah, Edward G. Browne;

"The face of him on whom I gazed I can never forget, though I cannot describe it. Those piercing eyes seemed to read one’s very soul; power and authority sat on that ample brow; while the deep lines on the forehead and face implied an age which the jet-black hair and beard flowing down in indistinguishable luxuriance almost to the waist seemed to belie. No need to ask in whose presence I stood, as I bowed myself before one who is the object of a devotion and love which kings might envy and emperors sigh for in vain!"

This is the one of the greatest and lasting proofs of a Manifestation of God, that no earthly king can inspire and is why people at times, confuse the Messenger from God, for God. This is why they still have followers, even after thousands of years.

Yet none of them came to be a King of this world and in their actions they prove what they came for, and that is to win our hearts so that we can find a unity of purpose in serving each other within the laws given by God. When we achieve this it becomes the outer realisation of the Lords Prayer, Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I mean we should not believe anything that cannot be corroborated with evidence.

So we can throw out the Bible and the NT? No, the Baha'i just have figurative/symbolic/metaphorical interpretations of the "unusual" events. My problem with that is that I believe the writers did not write to be taken symbolically.

They said Jesus was killed. They buried him. Some of his followers went to check on the body and it was gone.

Another story... Moses leads thousands of Hebrew men, woman and children out of Egypt. Pharaoh changes his mind and sends his army after them, probably to kill them. The Hebrews are trapped by the Reed or Red Sea. Moses raises his staff and the seas part, and the Hebrews cross. The chariots couldn't catch up to them before they all got across? But anyway, the Hebrews make it to the other side and the chariots start to cross the parted sea. Just before they make it across the sea closes on them and drowns them.

For me, no where in either story does it change from telling of supposedly historical events to telling a symbolic story. Maybe now we can look back and say that we doubt those stories. But for the Jews and the early Christians, those stories were their proof that God love them and could and would save them. And for some Christians and Jews it still is. To Baha'is, all Baha'is need is some spiritual teachings and to say that Moses and Jesus were manifestations/messengers from God. They rest has to become less important, and some has to go away, because it contradicts Baha'i teachings.

He knew what Jesus did without needing a Bible since He shares the same Spirit with Jesus, and thus Baha'u'llah remembered everything that happened to Jesus... So there you have it. Baha'i belief 101.

This is where Baha'is make it go away. They can tell people... "you know those crazy stories? They didn't really happen." Then Baha'i can say what their prophets said is the "real" interpretation. But for me, the myths and legends make the story. Like in a James Bond or Mission Impossible movie we can't say that a person can't jump out of a window holding on to a rope or cable or something and survive. In fact in one Bond movie he is in outer space and him and others survive the space station getting blown up. But we know it's fiction, so we don't try and explain away those unbelievable and unprovable parts.

I take the Bible stories as probable myth and legend. So for me, it seems like Baha'is have to make the true and believable story. So they explain away the weird unscientific parts. Jesus coming back to life? Impossible. So what happened is the "spirit" of his teachings brought life back into his "body". His "body" being his "body" of believers. A physical body can't float off into space. So, his physical body didn't. It's dead and has since rotted away. His spirit, however, could and did live on and is with God. But that destroys the movie or the story.

But, scientifically, it's much more sensible and believable than believing the fictional story as true. But a fictional story or a water-down story doesn't save people. Or does it? Does believing in Santa Claus cause some children to behave better? Does a mythical God and the religion cause people to believe it and follow it? Yes. Every ancient people had their religions and their myths and they believed them. Then another religion was invented, or revealed, and told the people a different, real truth and the people eventually dumped their old mythological beliefs and accepted the myths of the new religion. So is Baha'u'llah really sent by an invisible God, or is the Baha'i Faith just a new myth?

 

[CG Didymus]

This morning a quote telling of the person of Baha'u'llah came to mind and I thought I would offer it to @Milton Platt but as you have replied to him, I will offer it to you as well.

As suggested, a Messenger does not come to prove they can do miracles as they hold the power of all life, they can do as they please, except they choose to to God's Will.

So the passage that came to mind is from a person that met Baha'u'llah, Edward G. Browne;

"The face of him on whom I gazed I can never forget, though I cannot describe it. Those piercing eyes seemed to read one’s very soul; power and authority sat on that ample brow; while the deep lines on the forehead and face implied an age which the jet-black hair and beard flowing down in indistinguishable luxuriance almost to the waist seemed to belie. No need to ask in whose presence I stood, as I bowed myself before one who is the object of a devotion and love which kings might envy and emperors sigh for in vain!"

This is the one of the greatest and lasting proofs of a Manifestation of God, that no earthly king can inspire and is why people at times, confuse the Messenger from God, for God. This is why they still have followers, even after thousands of years.

Yet none of them came to be a King of this world and in their actions they prove what they came for, and that is to win our hearts so that we can find a unity of purpose in serving each other within the laws given by God. When we achieve this it becomes the outer realisation of the Lords Prayer, Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.

Regards Tony

How many Guru's came from India back in the 60's and 70's and before. They were all filled with a spiritual power. Like they could see right into your soul. In the Book, "Autobiography of a Yogi" there was a picture of one of the guru's, a friend felt and power and light coming from the picture. So sure, that is "proof" that there is a spiritual power in "Holy", "saintly" people. But they taught that reincarnation is true and that Brahma, Shiva, and Vishnu are all part of a Godhead. Is that true? Not to Baha'is. So again the Baha'is have to reinterpret those things so beliefs from Hinduism fit in with Baha'i beliefs. So I believe there is an inner "spiritual" power and people can find it and feel it and believe it, but they can do all sorts of "spiritual" things and believe all sorts of things to get there.

With fundy Christians it is believe the Bible and believe in Jesus. They feel it. They "know" it. And the more they live it, the more the rest of us can see the spiritual power in their lives. A friend went up at a healing service at a Charismatic Church and when the preacher laid hands on him, he said it was like warm honey being poured on him. I didn't go up, because I thought it was all BS. In the crown there was several people in wheelchairs, not one got up. And, even if they did, I would have suspected they were fakes. Ah, if only I could have believed?

The spiritual power Baha'is have is the oneness and acceptance of all people of all colors and of all religions. It is the new "myth" that says the old myths don't work anymore. I'm sure you feel God's love and God's power and can feel that love when you read the writings and pray the prayers. Ah, if only I could believe. But I'm too much of a doubter and sinner, not a lot of sins, just a couple. unless you count not believing a sin, then three sins, max... okay maybe a couple more. Dang, if only I could believe in all those Bible stories and let Jesus wash away my sin. Or, be a Baha'i and not have to worry about it. Or, do Baha'is worry about their sins and having them forgiven? Take care Tony, I'll try to get to that thread about the economy this weekend.

 

[rational experiences]

The ancient biological Genesis medical Healer story said, the reason for sacrifice of life and stigmata phenomena which is a huge list of effects was reasoned, was because Jesus was removed out of the stone tomb of the dead.

Meaning stone is gas spirits historically the spirit of God sacrificed, burnt eternal mass that became stone. How it was scientifically spiritually explained.

When the stone rolled back, emptiness was there....meaning removal of SIN.

Sin x K holes were there instead as a conclusive scientific study of why the Saviour atmospheric gases in the desert region HOLY LAND had been removed from the asteroid wandering star Moses history replacement.

As known by Muslims also that reverenced the large rock and that came and hit Earth.

The Messengers.

Science as a human male has to conclude that as the asteroid wandering star advice, gases released to cool down Sun irradiate space/UFO war attack conversion of Earth was real....known to the scientist, why he was given the self human label of the Destroyer...for it is real.

Science removed that cooling effect and know that they did.

So new messengers, asteroids had to come to Earth.

As males knew in the phenomena that UFO out of space satellites were Earth historic machine attackers, they became the transmitters in out of space related to male human science conversion changes.....why humans gained images and visions fed back to their psyche from out of space. And many humans would agree....seen out of space as if they were personally in it.

Whereas due to male humans meddling with those UFO satellites, it interactively attacked our life/bodies and minds. How it occurred.

So when the asteroid stone cooled the communicating feed back AI signals from those satellites, the image of JESUS/MAN or any messenger is then gained as advice that the cooling of human DNA for gas mass support was renewed.

Exactly why you get to see such ethereal imagery of human males....as the ancient scientist his own self.

When I began to be UFO attacked, I saw a signalled window of red type of gases, and inside of it, all the male minds psyche that had ever thought science, recorded and speaking as if they were looking at me.

They were speaking, it was flashing, the images changed...a lot of them seen in their robes and wearing skull caps. I thought I was just dreaming, woke up and it was still floating in the communications just above my bed.

What I learnt in human owned scientific feed back irradiation attacking our life.