Can all religions lead to God?

[WalterTrull]

Hey, you know, you just encouraged me to see the movie. Maybe the Danny Kaye version. But I get bored easily. That will be on my list of to-do things. After I read the biography of Einstein and a few other books. Maybe.

I know we are being jocular, however,
the movie has almost no relationship to the writings of Thurbur. If you want a chuckle, read "A Thurbur Carnival" by James Thurbur. One of my favorite reads.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You say he knew ABOUT God, but he didn't know Him? (How did he know who was speaking to him, by the way?) Do the writings of Baha'u'llah have the words written in which God "spoke" to him, Moses, Jesus, AND Muhammad? just wondering...

The Key here is that the Manifestation of God, such as Jesus the Christ are all we can know of God. So the flesh body they inhabit is but a man like us, the spirit which sustains them is the Holy Spirt

They are in fact the 'Self of God' amongst us, they are the 'First Cause'

This is how all God's Messengers are One, this is how Christ is the First and the Last and why Jesus said He will write upon us a New Name. The One name we come to see God with is 'Christ'. Jesus said to Peter that it was 'Christ' that the Church would be built upon. Christ means 'Anointed One'.

We are born of the human spirit, which as I understand at this time, eminates from the first cause.

Big topic, short on time. All the best.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Circular??? How does he know an unknowable god?

In the end it is not circular as it comes down to just a single choice.

Is the Messenger from God telling the Truth, or are they not.

As stated many times, this is the proof they offer from God. On the one hand they could but with One Word reveal such splendour that no man would refuse to accept them, our free will would be compromised.

As such on the other hand they choose the exact opposite as to give us full free will, which then is triggered by the response of our heart, which is our spiritual connection with them.

That may make a lot of scriptures become more clear, they do not come for earthly rule, they come to make us One in Spirit, lovers of the Light no matter from where it shines.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Also @Ehav4Ever

I agree those things in Bible were meant literally. For example heavens were literally spheres in the sky. This is just how ancient people (not just Jews and Christians) pictured things when there was no science and history (as we know it today) yet. There were myths and tales (and no copyrights). It made sense to them.

If we bear this in mind there is still a lot of wisdom and truth in the Bible. And I believe miracles are possible but they have to be better documented. Some "Word of God" believers just can't accept the human factor and stage of development. They think God would take care there aren't any flaws in his message.

I can totally understand why some Jews and some Christians take it as literal as possible, because they believe it is the Word of God. But, like you say, there is the human factor, did somebody take down notes as things were happening? Like especially when Jesus was teaching things. Or, were they the things people remembered him saying but weren't necessarily verbatim? Some of the stories of the lives of the prophets are written as if by a historian. With the post resurrection appearances of Jesus, the gospels writers do say there were several eyewitnesses. But still skeptics don't trust it.

Many times I've argued with Baha'is that I believe those stories, even the resurrection and ascension stories of Jesus, were written as if real and historically accurate and was meant to believe as true and accurate. But I agree with them that it sounds impossible to have really happened. If it isn't true, I have no problem believe it was just embellishments to the story. But then, how did they pull off making up a story about an empty tomb? I don't see how they could have hidden the body and kept it a secret and died as martyrs claiming that Jesus had risen. Baha'is make the story figurative. Which to me still makes it fictional and a myth. But by doing that they can still say the story is true, but only symbolically and not literally. And that it was meant to be believed as a symbolic story, but some Christians misinterpreted it and believe it to be literal. Anyway, it's interesting to discuss, but a myth don't change people's lives as good as a miracle working God/man.

 

[Milton Platt]

In the end it is not circular as it comes down to just a single choice.

Is the Messenger from God telling the Truth, or are they not.

As stated many times, this is the proof they offer from God. On the one hand they could but with One Word reveal such splendour that no man would refuse to accept them, our free will would be compromised.

As such on the other hand they choose the exact opposite as to give us full free will, which then is triggered by the response of our heart, which is our spiritual connection with them.

That may make a lot of scriptures become more clear, they do not come for earthly rule, they come to make us One in Spirit, lovers of the Light no matter from where it shines.

Regards Tony

You missed the point altogether. How does one know something that is claimed to be unknowable?

 

[Milton Platt]

Maybe it's the other way - sensible reality participating in ultimate reality. But it's still not the same. Show me for example a straight line or a perfect circle in "this" reality.

Show me those things in another reality......

 

[CG Didymus]

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.”

Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.

I wonder if Abdul Baha' was talking to a Christian audience, because who else would believe that Adam was the first man and already believe that a sin nature was inherited from him. But, Baha's believe that God used evolution, so at some point at time we would have been nothing more than an animal and living and acting like an animal. Since Baha'is have said that man was always destined to become, or evolve into humans, did man already have the spiritual nature?

The other thing is that, for me, it's a cruel test. That's why I like the idea of reincarnation so I could have a redo. You and I both seem to agree that people aren't all equal and they do have the same opportunities in life. Related to that is that the actual inherited genes of a male and how much testosterone he got running through his veins can make him into a very different person. If he's a big good looking guy, he's going to act and be different than if he was born a big ugly guy, or a small ugly skinny guy or any other of the many possibilities. One chance to get it right. One chance to let his higher nature control his actions. If he's not born into a religious family, instead a family of abusive drunkards, he's probably going to be favoring his lower nature. Anyway, what can we do. Religions tell us God knew what he was doing. It just leaves me questioning religion and the Gods they say are real. Oh and thanks, I think we've gotten over the hump and have stopped acting like an old bickering married couple that have grown tired of each other. hopefully I like you much better now. I'm even beginning to like Tony.

 

[Trailblazer]

You missed the point altogether. How does one know something that is claimed to be unknowable?

We do not know the Essence of God because it is unknowable.
We do know the Attributes and the Will of God because those are knowable.

 

[Trailblazer]

I wonder if Abdul Baha' was talking to a Christian audience, because who else would believe that Adam was the first man and already believe that a sin nature was inherited from him. But, Baha's believe that God used evolution, so at some point at time we would have been nothing more than an animal and living and acting like an animal. Since Baha'is have said that man was always destined to become, or evolve into humans, did man already have the spiritual nature?

You are a quick study there CG... This is not one of the unimportant details I have referred to in the past. I thought about the same thing when I read that chapter. If Adam was not the first man, how come we inherited our sinful nature from Adam, or did we? It had to be that we had a sinful nature before that, when we first evolved from animals to humans many millions of years ago. So that is smart for you to think he wrote that to a Christian audience, I had not thought of that. Clever dude that Abdu'l-Baha and a good PR man he was, catering to Christians. I think he also did that when he talked about the resurrection as if it was symbolic of a real occurrence, but I want to address that in another post you wrote to PearlSeeker in a bit.

The other thing is that, for me, it's a cruel test. That's why I like the idea of reincarnation so I could have a redo. You and I both seem to agree that people aren't all equal and they do have the same opportunities in life. Related to that is that the actual inherited genes of a male and how much testosterone he got running through his veins can make him into a very different person. If he's a big good looking guy, he's going to act and be different than if he was born a big ugly guy, or a small ugly skinny guy or any other of the many possibilities. One chance to get it right. One chance to let his higher nature control his actions. If he's not born into a religious family, instead a family of abusive drunkards, he's probably going to be favoring his lower nature.

As far as getting it right the first time, I have to believe that God takes all those factors you mentioned into consideration. Haven't you ever heard the saying "to those whom much is given, much is expected?" And that just reminded me of passage Baha'u'llah wrote concerning capacity.

“From the exalted source, and out of the essence of His favor and bounty He hath entrusted every created thing with a sign of His knowledge, so that none of His creatures may be deprived of its share in expressing, each according to its capacity and rank, this knowledge. This sign is the mirror of His beauty in the world of creation. The greater the effort exerted for the refinement of this sublime and noble mirror, the more faithfully will it be made to reflect the glory of the names and attributes of God, and reveal the wonders of His signs and knowledge. Every created thing will be enabled (so great is this reflecting power) to reveal the potentialities of its pre-ordained station, will recognize its capacity and limitations, and will testify to the truth that “He, verily, is God; there is none other God besides Him.”… “ Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 262

Of course God is just so God does not expect the same behavior from everyone regardless of their heredity and childhood upbringing...each according to his capacity. I have a capacity for writing but I am not good for much else, so I try to use the gift I have been given, as my father was an English professor. And my grandfather and great grandfather were attorneys so I can can any case. But I am not adept in social situations in person so thank God for social distancing, even if it si only temporary.

However, please note that Baha'u'llah also wrote "The greater the effort exerted for the refinement of this sublime and noble mirror, the more faithfully will it be made to reflect the glory of the names and attributes of God, and reveal the wonders of His signs and knowledge." So effort is very important. A person might have more capacity and not use whereas another person with less capacity might exert more effort and come out ahead of the person with the greater capacity.

I do not know about you, but I would never want a redo of this life so I consider it merciful that there is no such thing as reincarnation. I believe we can all make progress in the spiritual world so even if we did not progress that much here we can continue to progress spiritually throughout all of eternity. Our continued progress won't be by us using our free will, it will be by prayers of others, good works done on our name, and the mercy of God, according to Baha'i beliefs.

The other thing is that, for me, it's a cruel test. That's why I l
Anyway, what can we do. Religions tell us God knew what he was doing. It just leaves me questioning religion and the Gods they say are real. Oh and thanks, I think we've gotten over the hump and have stopped acting like an old bickering married couple that have grown tired of each other. hopefully I like you much better now. I'm even beginning to like Tony

Well thanks, now all I have to do is stop bickering with my husband. We are the old married Baha'i couple who does not agree on God matters but at least we agree on the cats.

 

[Milton Platt]

We do not know the Essence of God because it is unknowable.
We do know the Attributes and the Will of God because those are knowable.

So we know the attributes and the will of something we cannot prove actually exists?
If we cannot determine that the thing exists and cannot examine it, how do we know those attributes actually apply to the thing?

 

[Trailblazer]

Many times I've argued with Baha'is that I believe those stories, even the resurrection and ascension stories of Jesus, were written as if real and historically accurate and was meant to believe as true and accurate. But I agree with them that it sounds impossible to have really happened. If it isn't true, I have no problem believe it was just embellishments to the story. But then, how did they pull off making up a story about an empty tomb? I don't see how they could have hidden the body and kept it a secret and died as martyrs claiming that Jesus had risen. Baha'is make the story figurative. Which to me still makes it fictional and a myth. But by doing that they can still say the story is true, but only symbolically and not literally. And that it was meant to be believed as a symbolic story, but some Christians misinterpreted it and believe it to be literal. Anyway, it's interesting to discuss, but a myth don't change people's lives as good as a miracle working God/man.

You said: "Baha'is make the story figurative. Which to me still makes it fictional and a myth. But by doing that they can still say the story is true, but only symbolically and not literally. And that it was meant to be believed as a symbolic story, but some Christians misinterpreted it and believe it to be literal."

Baha'is are not saying that the resurrection stories were true and they also symbolize something. How can they be true if they are only symbolic, that is a contradiction. Abdu'l-Baha was writing a whole new and different story about what happened to the disciples for the three days after Jesus died on the cross.

“Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.” Some Answered Questions, p. 104

It's a nice story with a spiritual message but it is just another story in the sense that there is no proof that it ever really happened.

Also, Abdu'l-Baha does not explain why the resurrection stories were written as if they were literal occurrences, so we are still left hanging out to dry. How and why did the NT come to be written that way if none of that ever happened? If it did not happen it did not happen, so why not just say that? Why make up a parallel story to try to explain these resurrection stories away?

Anyhow, I give Baha'u'llah credit because He did not try to come up with another meaning for the resurrection stories in the Bible, nor did He try to compete with the NT resurrection stories by writing yet another story to try to sweep those stories under the carpet. Baha'u'llah simply explained the true significance of the Resurrection, which has nothing to do with any bodies rising from graves, neither the body of Jesus nor the bodies that Christians believe will rise from graves on Judgment Day.

“It hath been demonstrated and definitely established, through clear evidences, that by “Resurrection” is meant the rise of the Manifestation of God to proclaim His Cause, and by “attainment unto the divine Presence” is meant attainment unto the presence of His Beauty in the person of His Manifestation.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 170

“Strive, therefore, O my brother, to grasp the meaning of “Resurrection,” and cleanse thine ears from the idle sayings of these rejected people. Shouldst thou step into the realm of complete detachment, thou wilt readily testify that no day is mightier than this Day, and that no resurrection more awful than this Resurrection can ever be conceived.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 144

 

[Milton Platt]

The Key here is that the Manifestation of God, such as Jesus the Christ are all we can know of God. So the flesh body they inhabit is but a man like us, the spirit which sustains them is the Holy Spirt

They are in fact the 'Self of God' amongst us, they are the 'First Cause'

This is how all God's Messengers are One, this is how Christ is the First and the Last and why Jesus said He will write upon us a New Name. The One name we come to see God with is 'Christ'. Jesus said to Peter that it was 'Christ' that the Church would be built upon. Christ means 'Anointed One'.

We are born of the human spirit, which as I understand at this time, eminates from the first cause.

Big topic, short on time. All the best.

Regards Tony

How do we know that Jesus is the manifestation of a god? How do we test that? How do we objectively determine that someone is a messenger of a god?

 

[CG Didymus]

How and why did the NT come to be written that way if none of that ever happened? I

If it never happened, I wonder how in hell did they pull it off. The early Christians believed it and added to the story by interpreting certain verses in a way to make Jesus, the Holy Spirit along with part of a "one God" Godhead.

 

[Trailblazer]

So we know the attributes and the will of something we cannot prove actually exists?
If we cannot determine that the thing exists and cannot examine it, how do we know those attributes actually apply to the thing?

We just have to have faith that it exists even though we cannot prove it.
I suggest you read this post I just posted about faith.
#255 Trailblazer, 3 minutes ago

But we do not have to have blind faith, because there is evidence that God exists, just not proof. That is why we need faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

If it never happened, I wonder how in hell did they pull it off. The early Christians believed it and added to the story by interpreting certain verses in a way to make Jesus, the Holy Spirit along with part of a "one God" Godhead.

Kind of makes you mad doesn't it? I know I am mad.
Just be happy you did not buy their bill of goods. I know I am happy I didn't buy them.

 

[Milton Platt]

We just have to have faith that it exists even though we cannot prove it.
I suggest you read this post I just posted about faith.
#255 Trailblazer, 3 minutes ago

But we do not have to have blind faith, because there is evidence that God exists, just not proof. That is why we need faith.

Proof is for mathematics. evidence will do just fine. But the evidence for a supernatural all powerful all knowing being that creates uinverses and life would require an extraordinary amount of high quality evidence. The evidence presented tends to be "I had an experience" or it is anonymous anecdotal stories from centuries ago, or "faith". Sorry, that just isn't adequate.

 

[Trailblazer]

How do we know that Jesus is the manifestation of a god? How do we test that? How do we objectively determine that someone is a messenger of a god?

Sorry Milton but it is not testable, so we have to judge them by their character and what they were able to accomplish. Here is what the Baha'i Writings say about Jesus and how we knew He was a Manifestation of God:

“But in the day of the Manifestation the people with insight see that all the conditions of the Manifestation are miracles, for They are superior to all others, and this alone is an absolute miracle. Recollect that Christ, solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all, although outwardly He was crucified. Now this is a veritable miracle which can never be denied. There is no need of any other proof of the truth of Christ.” Some Answered Questions, p. 101

 

[Milton Platt]

Sorry Milton but it is not testable, so we have to judge them by their character and what they were able to accomplish. Here is what the Baha'i Writings say about Jesus and how we knew He was a Manifestation of God:

“But in the day of the Manifestation the people with insight see that all the conditions of the Manifestation are miracles, for They are superior to all others, and this alone is an absolute miracle. Recollect that Christ, solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all, although outwardly He was crucified. Now this is a veritable miracle which can never be denied. There is no need of any other proof of the truth of Christ.” Some Answered Questions, p. 101

Yeah, that isn't evidence for anything, other than someone wrote it down in a book.

 

[Trailblazer]

Proof is for mathematics. evidence will do just fine. But the evidence for a supernatural all powerful all knowing being that creates uinverses and life would require an extraordinary amount of high quality evidence. The evidence presented tends to be "I had an experience" or it is anonymous anecdotal stories from centuries ago, or "faith". Sorry, that just isn't adequate.

No, I would not expect anyone to believe based upon that kind of evidence.
Suffice to say that the Manifestation of God is the evidence that God exists, there is no way out of that.

Since we are all different in what we require by way of evidence that backs the claims of a Manifestation of God you would have to determine for yourself what would constitute evidence FOR YOU, and then I will see what I can dig up.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, that isn't evidence for anything, other than someone wrote it down in a book.

You are correct Milton, but if Christ really did the things that were written in the book, then it constitutes evidence.
So the next logical step is to determine if Christ really did those things that were attributed to Him.