Can all religions lead to God?

[YoursTrue]

I can totally understand why some Jews and some Christians take it as literal as possible, because they believe it is the Word of God. But, like you say, there is the human factor, did somebody take down notes as things were happening? Like especially when Jesus was teaching things. Or, were they the things people remembered him saying but weren't necessarily verbatim? Some of the stories of the lives of the prophets are written as if by a historian. With the post resurrection appearances of Jesus, the gospels writers do say there were several eyewitnesses. But still skeptics don't trust it.

Many times I've argued with Baha'is that I believe those stories, even the resurrection and ascension stories of Jesus, were written as if real and historically accurate and was meant to believe as true and accurate. But I agree with them that it sounds impossible to have really happened. If it isn't true, I have no problem believe it was just embellishments to the story. But then, how did they pull off making up a story about an empty tomb? I don't see how they could have hidden the body and kept it a secret and died as martyrs claiming that Jesus had risen. Baha'is make the story figurative. Which to me still makes it fictional and a myth. But by doing that they can still say the story is true, but only symbolically and not literally. And that it was meant to be believed as a symbolic story, but some Christians misinterpreted it and believe it to be literal. Anyway, it's interesting to discuss, but a myth don't change people's lives as good as a miracle working God/man.

We might differ on some points, but I must say I couldn't have said it better.

 

[YoursTrue]

So what is the manifestation of god?
I honestly don't think you could dig up convincing evidence for me personally. I appreciate the thought. I mean, even if a god showed up in front of me and did a bunch of "miracles" I would still have lots of questions. All I would know is that I saw something that I could not explain.

Here is my take on the problem:
If there is a god, I would assume the god knows what would be necessary for me to believe it exists and the god would be capable of providing what was necessary. Since I do not believe a god exists, either the god does not wish for me to know, or does not care if I know or not. In either case, there is nothing I can do about it.

You know what's interesting and in harmony with your explanation in the first part of your answer? The disciples had questions of Jesus. And Thomas said he didn't believe that Jesus was resurrected. Jesus took the time to show him he was. As for the rest of your post, I can only tell you briefly my experience. I finally, after years of claiming there is no God, I finally prayed and asked God, if he was there, to let me know. Because I needed to know. He did, although it's been a struggle and joy. I found Him finally and He let me know. If you want to find Him, He can let you know. 2 Chronicles 15:1,2. "he went out to meet Asa and said to him, “Listen to me, Asa and all Judah and Benjamin. The LORD is with you when you are with Him. If you seek Him, He will be found by you, but if you forsake Him, He will forsake you."

 

[Trailblazer]

So we can throw out the Bible and the NT? No, the Baha'i just have figurative/symbolic/metaphorical interpretations of the "unusual" events. My problem with that is that I believe the writers did not write to be taken symbolically.

They said Jesus was killed. They buried him. Some of his followers went to check on the body and it was gone.

Another story... Moses leads thousands of Hebrew men, woman and children out of Egypt. Pharaoh changes his mind and sends his army after them, probably to kill them. The Hebrews are trapped by the Reed or Red Sea. Moses raises his staff and the seas part, and the Hebrews cross. The chariots couldn't catch up to them before they all got across? But anyway, the Hebrews make it to the other side and the chariots start to cross the parted sea. Just before they make it across the sea closes on them and drowns them.

For me, no where in either story does it change from telling of supposedly historical events to telling a symbolic story. Maybe now we can look back and say that we doubt those stories. But for the Jews and the early Christians, those stories were their proof that God love them and could and would save them. And for some Christians and Jews it still is. To Baha'is, all Baha'is need is some spiritual teachings and to say that Moses and Jesus were manifestations/messengers from God. They rest has to become less important, and some has to go away, because it contradicts Baha'i teachings.

This is where Baha'is make it go away. They can tell people... "you know those crazy stories? They didn't really happen." Then Baha'i can say what their prophets said is the "real" interpretation. But for me, the myths and legends make the story. Like in a James Bond or Mission Impossible movie we can't say that a person can't jump out of a window holding on to a rope or cable or something and survive. In fact in one Bond movie he is in outer space and him and others survive the space station getting blown up. But we know it's fiction, so we don't try and explain away those unbelievable and unprovable parts.

I take the Bible stories as probable myth and legend. So for me, it seems like Baha'is have to make the true and believable story. So they explain away the weird unscientific parts. Jesus coming back to life? Impossible. So what happened is the "spirit" of his teachings brought life back into his "body". His "body" being his "body" of believers. A physical body can't float off into space. So, his physical body didn't. It's dead and has since rotted away. His spirit, however, could and did live on and is with God. But that destroys the movie or the story.

But, scientifically, it's much more sensible and believable than believing the fictional story as true. But a fictional story or a water-down story doesn't save people. Or does it? Does believing in Santa Claus cause some children to behave better? Does a mythical God and the religion cause people to believe it and follow it? Yes. Every ancient people had their religions and their myths and they believed them. Then another religion was invented, or revealed, and told the people a different, real truth and the people eventually dumped their old mythological beliefs and accepted the myths of the new religion. So is Baha'u'llah really sent by an invisible God, or is the Baha'i Faith just a new myth?

You can choose to believe whatever you want to, as can anyone. I just wish you would make up your mind what that is before you die for your own sake, unless you are enjoying yourself going around in circles and remaining undecided in which case have at it. As for me, I have really no interest in ancient stories because they are of no use to me. The parables of Jesus are wonderful but then so are the Hidden Words.

I do not need the Bible anymore than a Christian needs the Writings of Baha'u'llah. Baha'is are not these special people who have to know the Bible backwards and forwards. I lived for 60 years never having read one verse from the Bible. My mother and father dropped out of the Church in the early 1950s and I never saw a Bible or even heard it referred to growing up. My mother became a Baha'i when she was 60 and I never heard her mention the Bible even once and she had no Bible in her house.

The way you talk, you'd think that the Baha'is talk about the Bible all the time and interpret it, but I never saw any Baha'is talking about the Bible until I came to this forum. The Bible is not our Holy Book, we have our own books we consider Holy. Baha'u'llah never said we had to read the Bible, it is not a requirement for being a Baha'i. The requirement is that we believe in Jesus and Moses and the others Baha'u'llah referred to as prophets in The Kitab-i-Iqan. There is no requirement for Baha'is to interpret the Bible, but if one has such an interest they can spend their time that way.

How is humanity ever going to move on to the new age if they remain stuck in the past? They never will.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How many Guru's came from India back in the 60's and 70's and before. They were all filled with a spiritual power.

CG that has gone right over the point I gave. Those Guru's are like the moons of the Sun of reality, what gives heat and light is the Sun.

The Sun is the focal point and the moons just help us remember the Sun in the dark of night.

The Sun is the Manifestation.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It does matter because we should not believe just to believe.....
I mean we should not believe anything that cannot be corroborated with evidence.

Now, in modern times, yes, but 2000 years ago? What was there choices in the Middle East? The Greek and Roman religions, Judaism or this new religion that promised eternal life for the believer? And, I haven't gone in to it too deeply, but those other religions I think did have virgin births, weird creation stories and dying and coming back to life god/men.

Other than the Baha'is saying some of these ancient religions were true, what evidence is there for them? To me, the evidence points more to each culture and each people made up their own Gods and religions that fit their society. Like the Greek religion. Was there a manifestation that brought that message, or did people make up myths about the Gods?

 

[CG Didymus]

CG that has gone right over the point I gave. Those Guru's are like the moons of the Sun of reality, what gives heat and light is the Sun.

The Sun is the focal point and the moons just help us remember the Sun in the dark of night.

The Sun is the Manifestation.

Regards Tony

Some of those "Gurus" claimed to be incarnations of Hindu Gods or probably something very close to the Baha'i definition of a manifestation... that they reincarnate many times and finally reached a place where they could perfectly reflect their Truth, which is close to being the same unknowable essence of the Baha'is. And, besides, a manifestation is still more like the moon because they a like a perfectly polished mirror that is reflecting God. They are not God.

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not need the Bible anymore than a Christian needs the Writings of Baha'u'llah. Baha'is are not these special people who have to know the Bible backwards and forwards. I lived for 60 years never having read one verse from the Bible. My mother and father dropped out of the Church in the early 1950s and I never saw a Bible or even heard it referred to growing up. My mother became a Baha'i when she was 60 and I never heard her mention the Bible even once and she had no Bible in her house.

The way you talk, you'd think that the Baha'is talk about the Bible all the time and interpret it, but I never saw any Baha'is talking about the Bible until I came to this forum. The Bible is not our Holy Book, we have our own books we consider Holy. Baha'u'llah never said we had to read the Bible, it is not a requirement for being a Baha'i. The requirement is that we believe in Jesus and Moses and the others Baha'u'llah referred to as prophets in The Kitab-i-Iqan. There is no requirement for Baha'is to interpret the Bible, but if one has such an interest they can spend their time that way.

How is humanity ever going to move on to the new age if they remain stuck in the past? They never will.

Then why do you debate/discuss your religion with Christians... and people of other religions? Just tell the people the truth that you don't know anything about their religion or care to know about it, but that you believe that what they believe is wrong. And that here is the correct Baha'i interpretation of their religion. But, the thing is, you do know a lot about Christianity. But is it from reading it for yourself?

 

[CG Didymus]

You can choose to believe whatever you want to, as can anyone. I just wish you would make up your mind what that is before you die for your own sake, unless you are enjoying yourself going around in circles and remaining undecided in which case have at it. As for me, I have really no interest in ancient stories because they are of no use to me. The parables of Jesus are wonderful but then so are the Hidden Words.

Am I going in circles or is it religions? Which one would you choose other than the Baha'i Faith? I like some things from many of them, but there is so many choices. Just with Christianity should I choose Presbyterian, Lutheran, Orothodox, Catholic, Anglican, Evangelical, Charismatic, Pentecostal? There's good and bad in all of them. No reason to pick one. Should I follow a Hindu sage? Which one is best? Can you know without research it and then trying it? And if it doesn't work dropping out.

That's what I did. I was around Baha'is and didn't like the lack of actually doing things... too much talk. Like in your area. What have the Baha'is done in the last 20 years in Washington? What have they done in your town? The local Baha'is might have a picnic now and then where the "friends" can come together and bring the "seeker" friends. My Baha'i friends went far and wide to do things. They were in the San Diego area and went all the way up to Washington, Idaho and Oregon to Indian Reservations to "teach" the Faith. To, supposedly, help bring about "entry by troops". To help bring the "lessor Peace." I was excited about what they were doing and saying. That, it wasn't official, but maybe by the year 2000 we could have the lessor peace. No.

Christians have their problems too. I can't get behind any of the many types of Christian groups that are out there. I like how the Fundies take a stand and say that they believe the Bible is literal, inerrant and is the infallible Word of God. What I don't like about them is that they take the Bible too literal. A 6 day Creation that happened less than 10,000 years ago? The Flood and on and on. That God purposely created Satan knowing that he'd rebel and then God cast him to Earth? But God had a plan. He'd let the world get all screwed up and then send his Son to save it?

I liked the Pentecostal/Charismatic ones. They had so much life and energy. Dancing in the aisles and speaking in tongues and having healing services. What I didn't like about them was the fake healings and people faking speaking in tongues and prophesying.

I like religion and took some courses in college, plus taking some in the Anthropology department. I believe most in the things I learned there. Primitive people made up their religions. They had their Shamans and mystical practices. They might have sacrifices, human and/or animal, to their Gods. So that's why I say that I think people and their religions are evolving, not progressing in the way Baha'is believe. So I'm watching and discussing. I'm in no hurry.

 

[Trailblazer]

Now, in modern times, yes, but 2000 years ago? What was there choices in the Middle East? The Greek and Roman religions, Judaism or this new religion that promised eternal life for the believer? And, I haven't gone in to it too deeply, but those other religions I think did have virgin births, weird creation stories and dying and coming back to life god/men.

Before the age or science and reason, it is understandable that people believed in weird creation stories and dying and coming back to life god/men but we are no longer living in those times. We are living in modern times and we have science, so people are starting to rethink these beliefs. Sure, some people still cling to certain beliefs like the bodily resurrection of Jesus, because that was probably drummed into them growing up by parents and the Church.

I wonder how many atheists became Christians in adulthood and believed in the resurrection, Maybe some did because the story has a certain appeal to people who like the idea that their religion is superior to all others, as Christians told me on a Christian forum the other day, all because of the resurrection. But why? Why is it so important even if Jesus did rise from the grave? What does it mean for us? Without the accompanying Christian doctrines, it would have no real significance, it would have just been a miracle like the virgin birth. The salient difference is that there have been instances of a woman getting pregnant without having sex, but there have been no instances of bodies recomposing after they decomposed, EXCEPT IN THE BIBLE. What does that tell you, logically speaking?

Other than the Baha'is saying some of these ancient religions were true, what evidence is there for them? To me, the evidence points more to each culture and each people made up their own Gods and religions that fit their society. Like the Greek religion. Was there a manifestation that brought that message, or did people make up myths about the Gods?

For a Baha'i, the belief is that if there was a Manifestation of God behind the religion, then it is a religion of God, not a man-made religion, so then one has to ask which of these men were Manifestations of God. Baha'u'llah explained that in The Kitáb-i-Íqán. Although there is no reason to think there might not have be other Manifestations of God. But does it really matter if we have a complete list? If we are a Baha'i, we believe in the important ones that revealed the great religions:
Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

. And, besides, a manifestation is still more like the moon because they a like a perfectly polished mirror that is reflecting God. They are not God.

If that is so, if the Manifestations are not the Sun we see, then you are free to tell us who and what is God.

The analogy you gave is not a perfect reflection of the Sun, the moons reflection of the sun is not a polished clear and unblemished surface. We do not see the sun mirrored from the moon, we see but a few dulled attributes and can not see the full brilliance.

That is why the Manifestation is also the self of God amongst us, they are the only Perfect Mirror we can know, the rest of us can only be moons to the extent we polish the mirror of our hearts with attributes.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Some of those "Gurus" claimed to be incarnations of Hindu Gods or probably something very close to the Baha'i definition of a manifestation...

Many can claim such things, but only those that are the I Am, are who they claim to be.

Jesus made that clear simply by saying beware of false Prophets and that many come in the Name of 'Christ', that is many claim to be anointed by a God given Message, but have not been.

So Jesus the Christ also gave the Tests required to determine a True and False claim.

One of those Tests is to accept Christ. Now had Moses, Krishna, Zoroaster or Buddha been around they would all Bow to Christ, their own selves as they know who shines from that Self.

The great bounty in this day is we had Two such Manifestations, Two Sun's walking the earth at the same time both reflecting the same Sun, we can see how they spoke to each other in their writings and each offer themselves as a sacrafice for the other. You will not see a greater Love spoken than those conversations, which then manifests in their outward actions.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Then why do you debate/discuss your religion with Christians... and people of other religions? Just tell the people the truth that you don't know anything about their religion or care to know about it, but that you believe that what they believe is wrong. And that here is the correct Baha'i interpretation of their religion. But, the thing is, you do know a lot about Christianity. But is it from reading it for yourself?

I can hear that being also being said by Jews to Christians. The first thing to consider is that Christianity is born from being the fulfilment of Jewish Scriptures, a completeness of the contents of those scriptures.

How it works is that Jesus the Christ is in Reality the fulfilment of the Covenant of the Old Testament. As such acceptance of Christ embraces all that is written in that Covenant.

So a person does not need to know all what was written in the Old Covenant, as the New Covenant has become applicable and acceptance of the new, reflects the fulfilment of the Old.

As such taking it to the Level Baha'u'llah has offered, then all past Covenants given are fulfilled in Baha'u'llah and the New Covenant given by Him reflects all that was given in the past. The Word given by Baha'u'llah will contain the Essence of all past Scriptures, if one reads what Baha'u'llah wrote, it will also be found, in Essence, in all past scriptures.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

A very interesting thought.
If men define truth, it could not be universal.
If there is a God (a mind, a reason, a logos) who defines truth. I believe that he would create us with rational minds capable of knowing the truth

That is indeed how we are created. I note this is where you finished with your posts.

I wish you well and happy and hope your post gave you answers to the question you asked.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Some of those "Gurus" claimed to be incarnations of Hindu Gods or probably something very close to the Baha'i definition of a manifestation... that they reincarnate many times and finally reached a place where they could perfectly reflect their Truth,

But do they have any evidence to back up their claims? I think not.
If they are saying that "they reached a place" chances are they are false prophets because a REAL Manifestation of God would never say He has reached a place.

For a REAL Manifestation of God, it is all about God, it is not about them personally. They do not seek worship for themselves, they tell us to worship only God.

“O kings of the earth! He Who is the sovereign Lord of all is come. The Kingdom is God’s, the omnipotent Protector, the Self-Subsisting. Worship none but God, and, with radiant hearts, lift up your faces unto your Lord, the Lord of all names. This is a Revelation to which whatever ye possess can never be compared, could ye but know it.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 210

“Incline your ears to the counsels which this Servant giveth you for the sake of God. He, verily, asketh no recompense from you and is resigned to what God hath ordained for Him, and is entirely submissive to God’s Will.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 127

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then why do you debate/discuss your religion with Christians... and people of other religions?

I normally do not do so, not unless they bring it up first, by posting to me and starting a conversation. At that point I am obligated to answer, just as I answer all atheists who post to me.

Just tell the people the truth that you don't know anything about their religion or care to know about it, but that you believe that what they believe is wrong. And that here is the correct Baha'i interpretation of their religion. But, the thing is, you do know a lot about Christianity. But is it from reading it for yourself?

That is not the truth, because I know a lot about Christianity and I know some verses and chapters from the Bible. I know from reading it for myself and from discussing it with Christians.

It is also not true that I do not care to know because I care, but only if I am in a dialogue with a Christian. I care to know for the sake of the discussion, not for myself personally. Christians consistently tell me I am wrong and that they have the only correct interpretation of the Bible, so all I do is explain the Baha'i interpretation.... Fair us fair.

 

[Trailblazer]

Am I going in circles or is it religions? Which one would you choose other than the Baha'i Faith? I like some things from many of them, but there is so many choices. Just with Christianity should I choose Presbyterian, Lutheran, Orothodox, Catholic, Anglican, Evangelical, Charismatic, Pentecostal? There's good and bad in all of them. No reason to pick one. Should I follow a Hindu sage? Which one is best? Can you know without research it and then trying it? And if it doesn't work dropping out.

I think you are going in circles around the different religions...

I would not choose any religion other than the Baha'i Faith, because like you do with all the religions, I would always find something about that religion that I could not believe in. The Baha'i Faith is the only religion where I find nothing I cannot believe in.

That said, I like a lot of things about Christianity which is why I listen to Christian music 24/7. Dead Man Walking is playing right now and I love that song, but I do not have to believe everything about being rescued from sin to like the song, or the religion. The love the message the song conveys because it is true... Just listen to the song for yourself.

That's what I did. I was around Baha'is and didn't like the lack of actually doing things... too much talk. Like in your area. What have the Baha'is done in the last 20 years in Washington? What have they done in your town?

I don't really know what they have done or what they are doing now since I am not involved, but this has nothing to do with whether the Baha'i Faith is the Truth from God or not. The only thing that really matters is if Baha'u'lah was a Manifestation of God or not, not what Baha'is do.

My Baha'i friends went far and wide to do things. They were in the San Diego area and went all the way up to Washington, Idaho and Oregon to Indian Reservations to "teach" the Faith. To, supposedly, help bring about "entry by troops". To help bring the "lessor Peace." I was excited about what they were doing and saying.

I remember those days, but I do not know what happened after that. I think Bahais are doing other things, what they call community building, rather than teaching. I believe that teaching is more important but since I am not involved with the Baha'is I have no right to complain. It might make a difference if I said something, or it might not, but what can one person do anyway? People have to want to change before they will change, they have to be motivated the way your Baha'i friends were in the past.

I like religion and took some courses in college, plus taking some in the Anthropology department. I believe most in the things I learned there. Primitive people made up their religions. They had their Shamans and mystical practices. They might have sacrifices, human and/or animal, to their Gods. So that's why I say that I think people and their religions are evolving, not progressing in the way Baha'is believe.

Evolving or progressing, it means the same thing. The point is that humanity is evolving and progressing so religion has to also evolve and progress in order to suit the needs if the times we live in. The point is that religion cannot remain static and also be useful for humans. This is so obvious to me but that is because I am a Baha'i and I look at religion as more than just a set of scriptures we follow in order to worship God and be a good person I see it as an entire system that we need to build a new world order which will bring about social and economic change. This is a new concept that came with the teachings of the Baha'i Faith.

So I'm watching and discussing. I'm in no hurry.

Fair enough... Carry on.

 

[PearlSeeker]

So I believe there is an inner "spiritual" power and people can find it and feel it and believe it, but they can do all sorts of "spiritual" things and believe all sorts of things to get there.

Primitive people made up their religions. They had their Shamans and mystical practices. They might have sacrifices, human and/or animal, to their Gods. So that's why I say that I think people and their religions are evolving, not progressing in the way Baha'is believe. So I'm watching and discussing. I'm in no hurry.

I guess it's the human nature. We are "programmed" for amazement, seeking meaning, truth, essence, love, harmony, perfection, beauty ... There seems to be an inner spiritual core in each of us. Ancient people invented language, myths and rituals that, although filled with imagination and superstition, often reflected real deep questions, longing and wisdom. It worked for a start. You mentioned the Greeks. It's interesting how they evolved from myth to philosophy... I think Christianity works because love works. We need it so much. To love and be loved.

Some people had mystical experience... How can someone describe to you a taste? You have to taste it for yourself...

 

[YoursTrue]

I think you are going in circles around the different religions...

I would not choose any religion other than the Baha'i Faith, because like you do with all the religions, I would always find something about that religion that I could not believe in. The Baha'i Faith is the only religion where I find nothing I cannot believe in.

That said, I like a lot of things about Christianity which is why I listen to Christian music 24/7. Dead Man Walking is playing right now and I love that song, but I do not have to believe everything about being rescued from sin to like the song, or the religion. The love the message the song conveys because it is true... Just listen to the song for yourself.

I don't really know what they have done or what they are doing now since I am not involved, but this has nothing to do with whether the Baha'i Faith is the Truth from God or not. The only thing that really matters is if Baha'u'lah was a Manifestation of God or not, not what Baha'is do.

I remember those days, but I do not know what happened after that. I think Bahais are doing other things, what they call community building, rather than teaching. I believe that teaching is more important but since I am not involved with the Baha'is I have no right to complain. It might make a difference if I said something, or it might not, but what can one person do anyway? People have to want to change before they will change, they have to be motivated the way your Baha'i friends were in the past.

Evolving or progressing, it means the same thing. The point is that humanity is evolving and progressing so religion has to also evolve and progress in order to suit the needs if the times we live in. The point is that religion cannot remain static and also be useful for humans. This is so obvious to me but that is because I am a Baha'i and I look at religion as more than just a set of scriptures we follow in order to worship God and be a good person I see it as an entire system that we need to build a new world order which will bring about social and economic change. This is a new concept that came with the teachings of the Baha'i Faith.

Fair enough... Carry on.

Hi there. I've been reading for a while now. We all have impressions of things. And my impression is that while people can do helpful things for others, the Bahai faith is not something that strikes a responsive chord with me. Thanks for expressing yourself.

 

[Trailblazer]

the Bahai faith is not something that strikes a responsive chord with me.

Just out of curiosity what is it about Christianity that strikes a chord for you?

 

[CG Didymus]

Many can claim such things, but only those that are the I Am, are who they claim to be.

Jesus made that clear simply by saying beware of false Prophets and that many come in the Name of 'Christ', that is many claim to be anointed by a God given Message, but have not been.

So Jesus the Christ also gave the Tests required to determine a True and False claim.

One of those Tests is to accept Christ. Now had Moses, Krishna, Zoroaster or Buddha been around they would all Bow to Christ, their own selves as they know who shines from that Self.

The great bounty in this day is we had Two such Manifestations, Two Sun's walking the earth at the same time both reflecting the same Sun, we can see how they spoke to each other in their writings and each offer themselves as a sacrafice for the other. You will not see a greater Love spoken than those conversations, which then manifests in their outward actions.

Regards Tony

Did Adam, Abraham, or Moses ever claim to be the "I am?" And even a "perfectly" polished mirror is not the Sun. And I question a lot of those that Baha'is say were manifestations were "perfectly" polished. And, even for the Jews Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses don't have to be perfectly polished manifestations. All of them had human faults and made mistakes, but, in most cases, they put their trust in their God. But also, were even real, historical people, for instance like Adam? Making them manifestations if only important to the Baha'is. It's part of the Baha'is beliefs and Baha'is are then obligated to try and prove it and make sense of it.