Can all religions lead to God?

[CG Didymus]

Remember in the Bible, that the religious leaders were worried that they would take away the body, and, of course, we know some do believe that someone else was substituted for him to die. But interestingly, the Bible relates that the (Jewish) religious leaders were very, very concerned that someone would steal the body.
Matthew 27:62-66
The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and Pharisees assembled before Pilate. “Sir,” they said, “we remember that while He was alive that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise again.’ So give the order that the tomb be secured until the third day. Otherwise, His disciples may come and steal Him away and tell the people He has risen from the dead. And this last deception would be worse than the first.” “You have a guard,” Pilate said. “Go, make the tomb as secure as you know how.” So they went and secured the tomb by sealing the stone and posting the guard.

Yes, this adds to the problem for Baha'is. They don't need Jesus to have physically risen from the dead, but they need to believe in Jesus. It creates a lot of difficult to explain verses for them. I don't know if it's an "official" Baha'i beliefs, but at least one Baha'i here on the forum believes the disciples did take the body of Jesus and successfully hid it... and then went to their deaths saying that He had risen?

 

[Trailblazer]

Other than the Baha'is, which religion has copies of "original"? So what are you saying that any beliefs based on The Veda, The Upanishads, Mahabharata and other Holy Books of Hinduism aren't true? Might as well throw in Judaism and Christianity. No originals... can't trust them. Especially Judaism, somewhere is that mysterious "original" that has Ishmael being taken to be sacrificed.

1. The Baha'is do not have any copies of the original scriptures of any religions other than the Baha'i Faith.
2. I am not saying that the beliefs based on The Veda, The Upanishads, Mahabharata and other Holy Books of Hinduism aren't true.
3. I am not saying that Judaism and Christianity aren't true.
4. I am saying that since we do not have originals they are not authentic, so we cannot be sure what Moses, Jesus, or the other Prophets said.

...The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

But here was the whole point... you said...

Trailblazer said: For a REAL Manifestation of God, it is all about God, it is not about them personally. They do not seek worship for themselves, they tell us to worship only God.

So I found quotes that show that what you said isn't true. If you don't like the quotes I found, then find verses that back up what you say.

Can you present those quotes? Otherwise I cannot tell you if I like them or not.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, this adds to the problem for Baha'is. They don't need Jesus to have physically risen from the dead, but they need to believe in Jesus. It creates a lot of difficult to explain verses for them.

The belief that Jesus did not rise from the dead presents no more of a problem for the Baha'is than it presents for liberal Christians who have broken away from the traditional Christian beliefs.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death:

Many liberal and some mainline Christian leaders believe that Jesus died during the crucifixion, did not resurrect himself, and was not bodily resurrected by God. At his death, his mind ceased to function and his body started the decomposition process. Returning to life a day and a half later would have been quite impossible. The story of having been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh seems to have been copied from the story of the death of Osiris -- the Egyptian God of the earth, vegetation and grain. The legend that he visited the underworld between his death and resurrection was simply copied from common Pagan themes of surrounding cultures. One example again was Osiris. "With his original association to agriculture, his death and resurrection were seen as symbolic of the annual death and re-growth of the crops and the yearly flooding of the Nile." 1

They also believe that Paul regarded the resurrection to be an act of God in which Jesus was a passive recipient of God's power. Paul did not mention the empty tomb, the visit by a woman or women, the stone, the angel/angels/man/men at the tomb, and reunion of Jesus with his followers in his resuscitated body. Rather, he believed that Jesus was taken up into heaven in a spirit body. It was only later, from about 70 to 110 CE when the four canonic Gospels were written, that the Christians believed that Jesus rose from the grave in his original body, and by his own power.

Later, perhaps after Paul's death, there was great disappointment within the Christian communities because Jesus had not returned as expected. They diverted their focus of attention away from Jesus' second coming. They studied his life and death more intensely. Legends without a historical basis were created by the early church; these included the empty tomb and described Jesus returning in his original body to eat and talk with his followers.

In previous centuries, almost all Christians believed in miracles as described in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). These included creation, the story of Adam and Eve, a talking serpent, the great flood of Noah, the drying up of the Red/Reed sea, a prophet riding on a talking ***, the sun stopping in the sky, etc. From the Christian Scriptures (New Testament), they believed in the virgin birth, the Christmas star, angels appearing to the shepherds, Jesus healing the sick, etc. Many, perhaps most, liberal Christians now believe that these stories are not to be interpreted literally as real events. Their faith has not been damaged by losing faith in the reality of these events. A growing number of liberals are now taking the final step by interpreting the stories of Jesus' resurrection and his appearances to his followers and to Paul as other than real events. Retired bishop John Shelby Spong commented:

"I do admit that for Christians to enter this subject honestly is to invite great anxiety. It is to walk the razor's edge, to run the risk of cutting the final cord still binding many to the faith of their mothers and fathers. But the price for refusing to enter this consideration is for me even higher. The inability to question reveals that one has no confidence that one's belief system will survive such an inquiry. That is a tacit recognition that on unconscious levels, one's faith has already died. If one seeks to protect God from truth or new insights, then God has surely already died." 3

 

[Trailblazer]

Do it. I think you'd help the community a lot.

I doubt it, but thanks anyway.

Yes, because of the claims that your prophet has fulfilled all prophecies of all the religions and is the fulfillment of all the religions. Baha'is got some proving to do, but they can't.

I guess you forgot about the first principle of the Baha'i Faith, the independent investigation of truth. No, we do not have any proving to do, if people want to know the truth it is their responsibility to investigate for themselves:

Each human creature has individual endowment, power and responsibility in the creative plan of God. Therefore, depend upon your own reason and judgment and adhere to the outcome of your own investigation; otherwise, you will be utterly submerged in the sea of ignorance and deprived of all the bounties of God.
– Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 292.

The best you can hope for is that when a person reads the Baha'i writings it strikes a chord with them and they what to join.

What you apparently you do not understand is that the Baha'is are not "hoping" for anything. We believe that we know the truth so it does not matter if other people believe it. Our responsibility ends after we deliver the message of Baha'u'llah and answer any questions people might have about the Baha'i Faith, but we are not responsible for explaining how the Baha'i Faith is related to other religions because Baha'u'llah never gave us that responsibility.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't think too many people are denying that all humans are one. They just have a problem believing the Baha'i Faith. Like the Baha'i interpretation of Adam has nothing to do with the story of Adam in Genesis. He was created. He disobeyed God and got cursed. That story fits well with Christians as it gives a reason for God to send Jesus as a sacrifice for the sins of the world. So if you want to say that those stories aren't true, I'm fine with that. But then what? I'm supposed to believe that Adam was a manifestation? Where does that story come from and how does it fit with Christianity. Oh, and since it is a story about the Jews written by the Jews, shouldn't we ask them about what they say about Adam?

I have offered many times as to how we see these stories and you are aware that we do not say the stories are not true.

Please consider It is not fair that you keep offering that.

That Baha'u'llah gave an alternate explanation for the Foundation of and Truth told in all those stories and if those explanations have merit, is the issue for all to consider, if they so choose.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So I found quotes that show that what you said isn't true. If you don't like the quotes I found, then find verses that back up what you say.

The Kitab-i-Iqan explains the dual Station of the Manifestations in great detail and clears this matter up entirely.

If one wants to find quotes that say a that any Messenger is God, then they can, as that is not wrong, when we know what the Kitab-i-Iqan has offered.

If one wants to find quotes where it says they are not God, then one can, as that is also the Truth.

What has been offered is, if we argue as to that station, then we are both wrong.

Happy to clarify.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Happy to clarify.

And I am happy you and Adrian are back.

It's been tough fending off CG all by my lonesome (just kidding CG. )

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, this adds to the problem for Baha'is. They don't need Jesus to have physically risen from the dead, but they need to believe in Jesus. It creates a lot of difficult to explain verses for them. I don't know if it's an "official" Baha'i beliefs, but at least one Baha'i here on the forum believes the disciples did take the body of Jesus and successfully hid it... and then went to their deaths saying that He had risen?

I know there are those who also believe someone substituted another person for Jesus. Yet then they claim to put some adherence to the Bible as well. Considering the reason that Jesus died and was resurrected makes sense to me.

 

[YoursTrue]

I doubt it, but thanks anyway.

I guess you forgot about the first principle of the Baha'i Faith, the independent investigation of truth. No, we do not have any proving to do, if people want to know the truth it is their responsibility to investigate for themselves:

Each human creature has individual endowment, power and responsibility in the creative plan of God. Therefore, depend upon your own reason and judgment and adhere to the outcome of your own investigation; otherwise, you will be utterly submerged in the sea of ignorance and deprived of all the bounties of God.
– Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 292.

What you apparently you do not understand is that the Baha'is are not "hoping" for anything. We believe that we know the truth so it does not matter if other people believe it. Our responsibility ends after we deliver the message of Baha'u'llah and answer any questions people might have about the Baha'i Faith, but we are not responsible for explaining how the Baha'i Faith is related to other religions because Baha'u'llah never gave us that responsibility.

In the end, we will see. The Almighty God, the one true God that Jesus spoke of, will make clear what and why things happen.

 

[paarsurrey]

Many people who are considered humble and tolerant will say that all religions are useful for "bettering" oneself and have a similar core message: kindness and love toward your neighbor. Proselytizing is considered to be cruel and intolerant.

1. Isn't this avoiding the "truth" question? They cannot all logically be completely true if they contradict each other on core thing such as who "God" is?

2. Is it really arrogant and intolerant for someone to believe that he knows the truth and that it is loving to share that truth with others?

All human beings, whatever religion or no-religion they may have or whatever concept of G-d they may have deep in their hearts they may get to G-d if they sincerely turn to Him and ask Him forgiveness of their sins and pray for His help to guide them, I understand.Right, please?
There are many a verse to this effect in Quran. Right, please?

Regards
____________
Verse (2:186)


Sahih International: And when My servants ask you, [O Muhammad], concerning Me - indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to Me [by obedience] and believe in Me that they may be [rightly] guided.
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

 

[cataway]

In the end, we will see. The Almighty God, the one true God that Jesus spoke of, will make clear what and why things happen.

some will see him .all the others will know he is real

 

[CG Didymus]

For a REAL Manifestation of God, it is all about God, it is not about them personally. They do not seek worship for themselves, they tell us to worship only God.

Krishna, Sanskrit Kṛṣṇa, one of the most widely revered and most popular of all Indian divinities, worshipped as the eighth incarnation (avatar, or avatara) of the Hindu god Vishnu and also as a supreme god in his own right. Krishna became the focus of numerous bhakti (devotional) cults...

Buddhism believes in the existence of neither God nor soul in the theistic sense. It is essentially a religion of the mind, which advocates present moment awareness, inner purity, ethical conduct, freedom from the problem of change, impermanence and suffering...

The Buddha did not speak of a creator deity, but he did speak of creation. The Buddha clearly taught that all phenomena are "created" by means of cause and effect determined by natural law. Further, the course of our lives is determined by karma, which we create. Karma is not being directed by a supernatural intelligence but is its own natural law. This is what the Buddha taught....
So while he did not specifically say there is no creator god, in Buddhism, there is nothing for a creator god to do. God has no function, no role to play, either as an original source or as an instigator of current events...

According to the evidence of Original Pure Land form of Buddhism, Siddhartha Gautama Buddha (Shakyamuni) did reveal the existence of God, as the triune Tri-Kaya or Three Bodies / Forms or Purushas / Persons of the Godhead.

1. Adi Purusha Dharma Kaya = Hrih (Sri Krishna),

2. His emanation savior form = Sambhogya Kaya Hrih (Balarama-Vishnu)

3. His all-pervasive form in the heart of all beings = Rupa Kaya Hrih (Paramatma / Hrih in the heart.)

Nothing you cite about Krishna or Buddhism can be backed with any original source material.

So what are you saying that any beliefs based on The Veda, The Upanishads, Mahabharata and other Holy Books of Hinduism aren't true? Might as well throw in Judaism and Christianity. No originals... can't trust them. Especially Judaism, somewhere is that mysterious "original" that has Ishmael being taken to be sacrificed. But here was the whole point... you said...

So I found quotes that show that what you said isn't true. If you don't like the quotes I found, then find verses that back up what you say.

Can you present those quotes? Otherwise I cannot tell you if I like them or not.

You all ready told me what you think of the quotes I cited. But, can you quote beliefs from the other major religions that support what you said... "For a REAL Manifestation of God, it is all about God, it is not about them personally. They do not seek worship for themselves, they tell us to worship only God."

 

[CG Didymus]

I have offered many times as to how we see these stories and you are aware that we do not say the stories are not true.

Please consider It is not fair that you keep offering that.

That Baha'u'llah gave an alternate explanation for the Foundation of and Truth told in all those stories and if those explanations have merit, is the issue for all to consider, if they so choose.

Regards Tony

Show the verses from the Bible that would support the Baha'i claim that he is a manifestation of God? Then, what are the verses from the Quran that would support Adam as being a manifestation. And last, show where in the Baha'i writings it says that he is a manifestation. All I'm doing is using the Bible story in Genesis to show why I don't think he is a manifestation. In fact, I doubt greatly he even existed. I think he's a mythological character from the Jewish Creation story.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Kitab-i-Iqan explains the dual Station of the Manifestations in great detail and clears this matter up entirely.

If one wants to find quotes that say a that any Messenger is God, then they can, as that is not wrong, when we know what the Kitab-i-Iqan has offered.

If one wants to find quotes where it says they are not God, then one can, as that is also the Truth.

What has been offered is, if we argue as to that station, then we are both wrong.

Happy to clarify.

Regards Tony

I don't know what you think you're "clarifying"? Here's what Trailblazer said....

For a REAL Manifestation of God, it is all about God, it is not about them personally. They do not seek worship for themselves, they tell us to worship only God.

I found quotes from Hinduism and Buddhism that called that belief into questions. Krishna is worshipped... and is worshipped as an incarnation of God. And it is questionable whether Buddha ever taught anything about there being only one God. And the one Buddhist sect that did belief in God, The Pureland Buddhists, believe in a three part God. Not the "one" Abrahamic/Islam/Baha'i God.

So I found quotes that show that what you said isn't true. If you don't like the quotes I found, then find verses that back up what you say.

So back up her statement then. Where is the verses and quotes that support a belief that all the people Baha'is believe to be manifestations all taught that people should worship only the one true God?

 

[Trailblazer]

You all ready told me what you think of the quotes I cited.

I do not remember you citing any quotes that support what you said.

But, can you quote beliefs from the other major religions that support what you said... "For a REAL Manifestation of God, it is all about God, it is not about them personally. They do not seek worship for themselves, they tell us to worship only God."

I can only quote verses from the Bible.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

 

[Trailblazer]

Krishna is worshipped... and is worshipped as an incarnation of God.

Jesus is also worshiped as an incarnation of God. For me, that simply demonstrates how far those religions have strayed from the scriptures. Jesus never claimed to be God in the NT. I do not know what Hindu scriptures say but it sounds like they are doing the same as the Christians, trying to elevate Krishna to a level equal with God. I cannot believe that Jesus or Krishna were incarnations of God because of what Baha'u'llah wrote:

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

 

[YoursTrue]

You all ready told me what you think of the quotes I cited. But, can you quote beliefs from the other major religions that support what you said... "For a REAL Manifestation of God, it is all about God, it is not about them personally. They do not seek worship for themselves, they tell us to worship only God."

True. Good point. Reminding me of the apostle Paul's confrontation (?) vision (?) he had from Jesus. Completely changing him.

 

[YoursTrue]

I do not remember you citing any quotes that support what you said.

I can only quote verses from the Bible.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Precisely. It certainly wouldn't mean that Jesus was bad because he said only God is good. It means in relation to the Supreme One who teaches those who want to be taught by him. And Jesus knew he was going his way to the Father who is greater than he is (also was).

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, because of the claims that your prophet has fulfilled all prophecies of all the religions and is the fulfillment of all the religions. Baha'is got some proving to do, but they can't. The best you can hope for is that when a person reads the Baha'i writings it strikes a chord with them and they what to join.

I guess you forgot about the first principle of the Baha'i Faith, the independent investigation of truth. No, we do not have any proving to do, if people want to know the truth it is their responsibility to investigate for themselves:

Do Baha'is "teach"? Yes. What do they teach about the Baha'i Faith? One of the things is that Baha'u'llah is the Return of Christ and the one promised by all the other major religions. That would involve trying to some reasonable proofs to others... like saying here is what Abdul Baha said or here is what Bill Sears said.

Then, those people should investigate to see if the things you claim are true. For some people, it doesn't take too much investigating they find things that seem contradictory. So what does a Baha'i do when asked about those things? They pass along more quotes from the writings or they give their personal interpretation. And what would you call that? Teaching? Showing others things that would establish that what the Baha'i Faith teaches is true... or could you say they are trying to "prove" the validity of the Baha'i claims? After that, then it is still on the person to think about it for themselves and may or may not agree.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do Baha'is "teach"? Yes. What do they teach about the Baha'i Faith? One of the things is that Baha'u'llah is the Return of Christ and the one promised by all the other major religions. That would involve trying to some reasonable proofs to others... like saying here is what Abdul Baha said or here is what Bill Sears said.

But only if people ask. Only a Christian would they care about the return of Christ and not everyone is a Christian.

Then, those people should investigate to see if the things you claim are true. For some people, it doesn't take too much investigating they find things that seem contradictory. So what does a Baha'i do when asked about those things?

I do not know what other Bahais do I might tell them that not everyone understands it and not everyone will believe it and in fact most people won't because they are too entrenched in what they already believe and that is a veil to understanding. If people look to find something wrong they will always find something but a true seeker won't get bogged down in all those details because they will see past them to the truth.

They pass along more quotes from the writings or they give their personal interpretation. And what would you call that? Teaching? Showing others things that would establish that what the Baha'i Faith teaches is true... or could you say they are trying to "prove" the validity of the Baha'i claims? After that, then it is still on the person to think about it for themselves and may or may not agree.

I would call that teaching. Abdu'l-Baha said we should present convincing proofs, not that we should be trying to convince people. People have to convince themselves or else it would not be "their belief."