Can all religions lead to God?

[YoursTrue]

some will see him .all the others will know he is real

I believe

But only if people ask. Only a Christian would they care about the return of Christ and not everyone is a Christian.
...

Trailblazer, please explain what you believe about the return of Christ.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer, please explain what you believe about the return of Christ.

Baha'is believe that the Christ Spirit returned in the Person of Baha'u'llah, and that is what Jesus promised to send, His Spirit. We believe that Jesus was a Comforter and Baha'u'llah was another Comforter and the Spirit of truth.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for hedwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah wrote:

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not know what other Bahais do I might tell them that not everyone understands it and not everyone will believe it and in fact most people won't because they are too entrenched in what they already believe and that is a veil to understanding. If people look to find something wrong they will always find something but a true seeker won't get bogged down in all those details because they will see past them to the truth.

I would never say that "most" people are too entrenched in what they believe to deny the Truth... if it is the Truth. So how do people go about finding out if the Baha'i Faith is the Truth? They'll probably have to look into the details of what Baha'is believe. Details are important. There's a lot of religions with some pretty strange beliefs, and lots of times a person has to dig deep to find them. Sometimes they're not that deep and "entrenched" believers close their eyes and minds to those details.

There are questionable and contradictory beliefs between the different religions. By using words like "veils" and "True Seekers" Baha'i are saying that the beliefs of the other religions are wrong and become "veils" that keeps them from seeing the "real" truth... The Baha'i truth. But, if they were a "true seeker", they would see that their religions is wrong and they'd recognize Baha'u'llah and become Baha'is. But no, people don't become Baha'is for I'm sure lots of reasons. One of them is the details. Basic Baha'i beliefs are great. Go a little deeper and for some, like me, the Baha'i Faith becomes not much more than a modernization and liberalization of Shia Islam. The Baha'i Faith has very little in common with all the other religions.

 

[CG Didymus]

Jesus is also worshiped as an incarnation of God. For me, that simply demonstrates how far those religions have strayed from the scriptures. Jesus never claimed to be God in the NT. I do not know what Hindu scriptures say but it sounds like they are doing the same as the Christians, trying to elevate Krishna to a level equal with God. I cannot believe that Jesus or Krishna were incarnations of God because of what Baha'u'llah wrote:

Now you are saying you've read the NT? Then, you've probably come across verses that imply he is God. The Christian leaders had to come up with something, so they decided that God must be a three-part Godhead. Too bad Jesus and God weren't smart enough and honest enough just to tell the people that Jesus is a perfect reflection of God.

So you don't know what Hindu Scriptures say? So instead of finding out you just go by what your prophet says. Sure, that's fine. Just like it is fine for Christians to take their Scriptures as the final word. But... when they do it they are "entrenched" and are blinded and have veils that are obscuring the truth from them? And your beliefs that you are entrench in are not veils? And they, if they were "true seekers" could see beyond those veils and see the light? The true light of the Baha'i Faith? But, they should not get bogged down in details, they should just trust everything that the Baha'i Faith teaches? I hope that is not what you think. But that is how I interpret what you've been saying.

 

[Trailblazer]

I would never say that "most" people are too entrenched in what they believe to deny the Truth... if it is the Truth.

I would say that people are too entrenched in what they believe to see anything else, so if another religion is the truth, they will never know it.

So how do people go about finding out if the Baha'i Faith is the Truth? They'll probably have to look into the details of what Baha'is believe. Details are important. There's a lot of religions with some pretty strange beliefs, and lots of times a person has to dig deep to find them. Sometimes they're not that deep and "entrenched" believers close their eyes and minds to those details.

They need to do an independent investigation and maybe they need to look at the details, maybe not. All people are different. You are a detail guy but not all people are like that.

There are questionable and contradictory beliefs between the different religions. By using words like "veils" and "True Seekers" Baha'i are saying that the beliefs of the other religions are wrong and become "veils" that keeps them from seeing the "real" truth... The Baha'i truth.

Obviously, from a Baha'i perspective, the Baha'i Faith is the truth, but that does not mean that all the beliefs of the other religions are wrong, because they also have truth. Anything revealed by God is the truth.

But, if they were a "true seeker", they would see that their religions is wrong and they'd would recognize Baha'u'llah and become Baha'is. But no, people don't become Baha'is for I'm sure lots of reasons. One of them is the details. Basic Baha'i beliefs are great. Go a little deeper and for some, like me, the Baha'i Faith becomes not much more than a modernization and liberalization of Shia Islam. The Baha'i Faith has very little in common with all the other religions.

The Baha'i Faith is either the truth from God or not. Yes or no. That is all that should matter to a true seeker. It should not be about what we like, what suits our personality, but that is what happens for most people. They act as if religion is like buying a new pair of shoes and it has to fit them, but religion was not revealed to suit individuals, it is revealed for the whole of humanity.

Basic Baha'i beliefs are not great for many people, as they do not fit with their lifestyle and what they consider important. Not everyone cares about the elimination of prejudice and the unity of mankind, and not everyone wants to unite under one religion and have a world government. Until more people care about these things, and until more people give up waiting for Jesus to return, I do not see the Baha'i Faith growing much.

The Baha'i Faith has little in common with the older religions because it is a new religion that was revealed for a new age, but as I see it, people are mired in the past and they simply cannot move on. It makes absolutely no logical sense that any religion was revealed to be useful for all of time, because people change and the world we live in changes, so religion has to change with the times in order to be useful. Why more people cannot understand that is beyond me.

 

[Trailblazer]

Now you are saying you've read the NT? Then, you've probably come across verses that imply he is God.

I have read the NT, and there are no verses that imply that Jesus is God. Those verses are just not there. What we see is Jesus saying He is not equal to God and God is c=greater than Him and we should serve God only. What we see is Jesus saying He is a Prophet. Never once in the NT did Jesus claim to be God, so it is a travesty that Christians bought off on the Church doctrines instead of reading the NT for themselves.

The Christian leaders had to come up with something, so they decided that God must be a three-part Godhead. Too bad Jesus and God weren't smart enough and honest enough just to tell the people that Jesus is a perfect reflection of God.

That is what happened alright. The Christian leaders knew Jesus was more than human so they made Him into God because the idea of a Manifestation of God who has both a human and a divine nature is not something anyone thought of. Now it has been revealed by Baha'u'llah but people who are still mired in their belief that Jesus is God are not going to change.

So you don't know what Hindu Scriptures say? So instead of finding out you just go by what your prophet says.

I do not care what the Hindu Scriptures say. Because I am a logical person I know that whatever they say did not come directly from God and I know it is ancient, so there is no need for me to compare it to the Baha'i Scriptures, because there is no way I am going to become a Hindu.

Sure, that's fine. Just like it is fine for Christians to take their Scriptures as the final word. But... when they do it they are "entrenched" and are blinded and have veils that are obscuring the truth from them?

No, it is not fine for Christians to take their Scriptures as the final world simply because they are not the final word from God.

And your beliefs that you are entrench in are not veils? And they, if they were "true seekers" could see beyond those veils and see the light? The true light of the Baha'i Faith? But, they should not get bogged down in details, they should just trust everything that the Baha'i Faith teaches? I hope that is not what you think. But that is how I interpret what you've been saying.

No, they should not believe what the Baha'i Faith teaches unless it rings true for them. If they are interested they should do an independent investigation of truth. If they need to look at the details they should look at them, but continually comparing the Baha'i Faith to the other religions is not any way to learn about the Baha'i Faith. All it does is cause confusion and doubt. Likewise, if someone was interested in becoming a Christian they should study the Bible, not the Buddhist or Hindu scriptures or the Qur'an.

 

[CG Didymus]

I would say that people are too entrenched in what they believe to see anything else, so if another religion is the truth, they will never know it.

You say "entrenched" I'd call it committed. They believe they have the right beliefs. They have studied their religion and learned how to refute people that attack or question their religion. But, a hard-core Baha'i has done the same thing. So who's right? Both are "entrenched" or committed to their beliefs.

But, then there is a large group of people in every religion that are just going along for the ride. Whether it's going to church and Bible studies or prayer meetings. or, for a Baha'i, going to the 19 day Feasts and firesides, they aren't looking to change their religion. It is comfortable for them. They've accepted it as true and don't do much to promote it or defend it against others. These people aren't "True" seekers or seekers of nothing more than just doing the bare minimum of following their religion.

Call it "veils" or closing one's mind to all else but their beliefs, but who doesn't fall into that? Even a "True" seeker finds what they believe is the Truth and quits searching and becomes "entrenched" in that religion... it might be Buddhism. It might be Baha'i. It might be going back to the Catholic Church. Once they think they've found the right belief, they are no longer "seekers". They're done looking. For Baha'is, since they believe they are correct in saying that their prophet is the true one for today, anyone that hasn't accepted the Baha'i Faith must be entrenched in their old religion and must have a bunch of veils cloudy their minds not to see, what the Baha'is think is... the clear and obvious truth. But it ain't that obvious.

Like I always say... the basics look great. Who could deny that it's time for all the people in the world to come together in peace and harmony. But right there, under the surface, what do Baha'is really believe? On the surface, Baha'is say that they believe in Jesus and the Bible. Dig deeper and the Bible is not completely authoritative and Jesus is dead and gone. With Hinduism, Baha'is say they believe it is a true religion of God. But which God? If it's not an Abrahamic kind of a God, and your form of Hinduism has more than one God, it ain't right. If it teaches reincarnation, it ain't right. If they believe Krishna is an incarnation of the God Vishnu, it ain't right.

And all that is right under the surface. Go deeper and who knows what we'd find out about what Baha'is really believe. So is it "veils" keeping people from believing in the Baha'i Faith or is it what Baha'is believe that makes them question and doubt the validity of the Baha'i Faith?

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not care what the Hindu Scriptures say... I know that whatever they say did not come directly from God

And how do you know that if you haven't independently investigated what their Scriptures say? You don't You're taking the word of your religious leaders.

No, it is not fine for Christians to take their Scriptures as the final world simply because they are not the final word from God.

It is for most Christians. You don't care about the Scriptures of the other religions? Well, neither do they. Especially the Quran and the Baha'i writings. Unless, they want to discuss/debate their beliefs against theirs. Then they should study them to know what they are talking about.

..continually comparing the Baha'i Faith to the other religions is not any way to learn about the Baha'i Faith. All it does is cause confusion and doubt. Likewise, if someone was interested in becoming a Christian they should study the Bible, not the Buddhist or Hindu scriptures or the Qur'an.

How do you independently investigate The Truth if you don't know the things that the other religions believe to be "The Truth"? If it causes confusion and doubt, there is something wrong... like maybe some of it is BS? But, without checking it out for yourself, how do you know it isn't your religions that is full of %&*#?

And, one of those things for me, that is questionable is "progressive" revelation. There's too many strange religious beliefs in the world. There's too many beliefs about the Gods and/or God. Too many ancient people had various Gods that all needed to be appeased... sometimes it meant a human had to be sacrificed. But even if it was an animal, does any real kind, loving and just God need an animal to have its throat slit? What are the Baha'i answers for that kind of religious belief?

Even with the major religions, the only way the Baha'is can make them all "one" is to say that "originally" they all taught that there is only one God? But, there is no "original" message. So since what we have is various Scriptures from different religions that have all sorts of beliefs in them. The Baha'i explanation? That some of it was changeable "social" laws meant for that time and place. But doesn't that mean that those religions were never meant to go beyond those people at that place? Yet, they do and they did and many of them are still with us, because they evolve with the times and the people adapt them to what better fits modern times.

But what about these changes in the religions? Well that's another Baha'i explanation why the religion no longer has its "original" "true" message from God... People changed the religion. Baha'is say that "traditions" of man creep in and distorted the truth. And even the "original" words were often misinterpreted which led to errors in the religion. To me, the easier explanations is people made up their Gods and their religion. People had to obey the rules and their religious leaders. If not the "Gods" would be angry. The Jewish God would punish Israel for disobeying. The Christian God would send you to hell if you didn't obey the rules. Probably the same with Islam. Then, we have the Baha'is. Why do you obey the rules of your religion? Or do you?

Actually, I doubt very much that any Baha'i can or does obey all the rules. So how many rules can a Baha'i break before the Baha'i God gets upset with them? Does he give out rewards and punishments here on Earth to keep people in line? Or, is is just nearness or being far from God in the next world? So in practical every day living, all the major religions are just trying to get people to not do bad things. Some have karma and reincarnation. Some have heaven for the good and hell for the bad. But it's all designed to get people to follow and obey an invisible God that their religious leaders and prophets say is real.

 

[metis]

I do not care what the Hindu Scriptures say. Because I am a logical person I know that whatever they say did not come directly from God...

Could you please explain how you possibly could supposedly know that? As a "belief, ok; but "know"?

 

[Trailblazer]

Could you please explain how you possibly could supposedly know that? As a "belief, ok; but "know"?

I do not know that, I believe it.

How could those scriptures have come directly from God? Just as is the case with the Bible, Hindu Scriptures were written by men who might have been "inspired" by God, but I believe that only Scriptures that were written by a Manifestation of God come directly from God.

 

[Trailblazer]

You say "entrenched" I'd call it committed. They believe they have the right beliefs. They have studied their religion and learned how to refute people that attack or question their religion. But, a hard-core Baha'i has done the same thing. So who's right? Both are "entrenched" or committed to their beliefs.

You have a good point. We all think we have the "right beliefs." I was just watching a video that was posted on another forum about beliefs and it espouses many Baha'i principles.

But, then there is a large group of people in every religion that are just going along for the ride. Whether it's going to church and Bible studies or prayer meetings. or, for a Baha'i, going to the 19 day Feasts and firesides, they aren't looking to change their religion. It is comfortable for them. They've accepted it as true and don't do much to promote it or defend it against others. These people aren't "True" seekers or seekers of nothing more than just doing the bare minimum of following their religion.

I agree and I think many Baha'is are like that. they stay in their own little group and they do not want to be challenged by other believers. They believe what they believe is true, but if they really followed what Baha'u'llah wrote they would be dong what He enjoined us to do, which means carrying the message far and wide. Instead, many of them only care about their own spiritual development and being close to God, which is important, but not the only thing we have been enjoined to do. I consider this selfish but I do not even think these people realize it since they are so caught up in what they want.

Call it "veils" or closing one's mind to all else but their beliefs, but who doesn't fall into that? Even a "True" seeker finds what they believe is the Truth and quits searching and becomes "entrenched" in that religion... it might be Buddhism. It might be Baha'i. It might be going back to the Catholic Church. Once they think they've found the right belief, they are no longer "seekers". They're done looking. For Baha'is, since they believe they are correct in saying that their prophet is the true one for today, anyone that hasn't accepted the Baha'i Faith must be entrenched in their old religion and must have a bunch of veils cloudy their minds not to see, what the Baha'is think is... the clear and obvious truth. But it ain't that obvious.

Although you have not reached this point, at some point most people can settle upon a particular religious belief that they believe is true, but that does not mean they have to stop seeking for truth. Christians have Bible study groups and Bahais study the Writings, but I think that it would do us all good to go outside our own beliefs and look at the Scriptures of other religions. That does not mean we have to switch religions, only that we are open to finding more truth. Truth is Reality and Reality is one.

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.

Like I always say... the basics look great. Who could deny that it's time for all the people in the world to come together in peace and harmony.

So why isn't that enough?

But right there, under the surface, what do Baha'is really believe? On the surface, Baha'is say that they believe in Jesus and the Bible. Dig deeper and the Bible is not completely authoritative and Jesus is dead and gone. With Hinduism, Baha'is say they believe it is a true religion of God. But which God? If it's not an Abrahamic kind of a God, and your form of Hinduism has more than one God, it ain't right. If it teaches reincarnation, it ain't right. If they believe Krishna is an incarnation of the God Vishnu, it ain't right.

Why do you keep comparing what Baha'is believe with what other religions teach? Why does it matter what Baha'is say about the other religions? It doesn't matter what the Baha'is do, the important point is that YOU will never be able to reconcile all these beliefs because they are different, so it is YOU who has to figure out what YOU believe.

And all that is right under the surface. Go deeper and who knows what we'd find out about what Baha'is really believe. So is it "veils" keeping people from believing in the Baha'i Faith or is it what Baha'is believe that makes them question and doubt the validity of the Baha'i Faith?

Why should it matter what Baha'is believe? Why would what Baha'is believe about other religions make those of other religions question what the Baha'i Faith teaches? The Baha'i Faith teaches what it teaches and that is all people should be looking at if they are interested in the Baha'i Faith, not what Baha'is believe about other religions.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: I do not care what the Hindu Scriptures say... I know that whatever they say did not come directly from God.

And how do you know that if you haven't independently investigated what their Scriptures say? You don't. You're taking the word of your religious leaders.

No, I am not taking the word of my religious leaders, I am using logic and common sense. Even if their Scriptures SAY they came directly from God, why should I believe that? However, it does not matter to me if they came directly from God because Hinduism is not my religion.

Trailblazer said: No, it is not fine for Christians to take their Scriptures as the final world simply because they are not the final word from God.

It is for most Christians. You don't care about the Scriptures of the other religions? Well, neither do they. Especially the Quran and the Baha'i writings. Unless, they want to discuss/debate their beliefs against theirs. Then they should study them to know what they are talking about.

I do not care if they care about Baha’i Scriptures and they do not care if I care about their Scriptures. If they want to debate with Baha’is they should know what they are talking about, but do they? No they don’t and you know it. All Christians ever do is to refer to the Bible, and they expect Baha’is to meet them on their own ground because they believe that the Bible is the only Word of God. How is that fair? You are expecting Baha’is to know the Bible but why don’t you expect Christians to know the Baha’i Writings if they are in a debate? The Christian assumption is that the Baha’i Faith is false so why bother? Where is there to go with that? And you wonder why most Baha’is have given up teaching the Baha’i Faith to Christians. It is a very rare Christian that even bothers to ask what we believe or what Baha’u’llah wrote.

How do you independently investigate The Truth if you don't know the things that the other religions believe to be "The Truth"? If it causes confusion and doubt, there is something wrong... like maybe some of it is BS? But, without checking it out for yourself, how do you know it isn't your religions that is full of %&*#?

Maybe it is necessary for you, but it is not necessary for everyone to know everything all the world religions teach in order to know that their religion is true. Do Christians know anything about other religions? If not, then why are Baha’is required (by you) to know about all other world religions?

Looking at other religions does not cause confusion and doubt for me, not at all, but why would I need to check out all the other religions to know that a new religion is true? Do I need to check out all the used cars in the car lot before I buy a new car?

And, one of those things for me, that is questionable is "progressive" revelation. There's too many strange religious beliefs in the world. There's too many beliefs about the Gods and/or God. Too many ancient people had various Gods that all needed to be appeased... sometimes it meant a human had to be sacrificed. But even if it was an animal, does any real kind, loving and just God need an animal to have its throat slit? What are the Baha'i answers for that kind of religious belief?

If you want to keep looking at all the religious beliefs in the world that is your choice, but I see no point looking at beliefs that makes no sense to me at all. If you do not like believe in progressive revelation I cannot see how you could ever be a Baha’i, since that is the underpinning theology of the Baha’i Faith.

Even with the major religions, the only way the Baha'is can make them all "one" is to say that "originally" they all taught that there is only one God? But, there is no "original" message. So since what we have is various Scriptures from different religions that have all sorts of beliefs in them. The Baha'i explanation? That some of it was changeable "social" laws meant for that time and place. But doesn't that mean that those religions were never meant to go beyond those people at that place? Yet, they do and they did and many of them are still with us, because they evolve with the times and the people adapt them to what better fits modern times.

That is a pretty good encapsulation of what Baha’is believe and do. Obviously the reason those religions still exist is because of religious tradition. In most cases, people were raised in those religions so they continue to adhere to them. Let’s face it, only a few religious people ever look outside of what they already believe. Sure, you could say the same thing about the Baha’is, but as we see it we have no reason to look outside because we believe we have the most current religion.

It really is just a matter or chronology as you cannot make the old new. You can restore a car but it is still an old car and it will never run exactly the way a new car runs, because new technology makes for many improvements. Yet there are things about all cars that make them run well, if they are running. If for example their engine and transmission are working well they will run. So it is true for the older religions. They share the same spiritual truths such as love for others and love for God, detachment and sacrifice, so if people follow these teachings their religion will work. What they will miss out on is the message for the new age, the unity of mankind, as well as the new social teachings and laws.

But what about these changes in the religions? Well that's another Baha'i explanation why the religion no longer has its "original" "true" message from God... People changed the religion. Baha'is say that "traditions" of man creep in and distorted the truth. And even the "original" words were often misinterpreted which led to errors in the religion. To me, the easier explanations is people made up their Gods and their religion.

You can go with your explanation and I will go with mine. Since I believe in God and that all the major religions were divined revealed, my explanation makes more sense to me.

Actually, I doubt very much that any Baha'i can or does obey all the rules. So how many rules can a Baha'i break before the Baha'i God gets upset with them? Does he give out rewards and punishments here on Earth to keep people in line? Or, is is just nearness or being far from God in the next world? So in practical every day living, all the major religions are just trying to get people to not do bad things. Some have karma and reincarnation. Some have heaven for the good and hell for the bad. But it's all designed to get people to follow and obey an invisible God that their religious leaders and prophets say is real.

Religion is about laws but it is more than that. The most important thing is to know and worship God and we do the best we can to follow the laws. The laws are not designed to frighten people onto obedience; they are designed to help us lead a right way of life that is for the good of the individual and the whole of society.

At the end of this life, it is nearness and distance from God that will matter, as well has how we have evolved spiritually, our character. Following the teachings and laws of religion is what guides us on our path.

 

[CG Didymus]

Although you have not reached this point, at some point most people can settle upon a particular religious belief that they believe is true,

I've been told that the lessor peace will be established by the year 2000 by Baha'is. Then Christians told me Jesus is coming soon. I just to skeptical right now. And similar to you, if the Abrahamic God is real, I don't like some of the things he's done in the world.

Why should it matter what Baha'is believe? Why would what Baha'is believe about other religions make those of other religions question what the Baha'i Faith teaches? The Baha'i Faith teaches what it teaches and that is all people should be looking at if they are interested in the Baha'i Faith, not what Baha'is believe about other religions.

As soon as a Baha'i says that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all the prophecies of all the major religions, it gives a reason for those in the other religions to find out what he has said, and to see if they think it is true or not. For those Baha'is that want to teach those in the other religions, they should know something about that other religion and how the Baha'i Faith is the fulfillment of that other religion. And then teach about how Baha'is believe that all the major religions are one and related and all from the same source, the one true God.

 

[CG Didymus]

Why do you keep comparing what Baha'is believe with what other religions teach? Why does it matter what Baha'is say about the other religions? It doesn't matter what the Baha'is do, the important point is that YOU will never be able to reconcile all these beliefs because they are different, so it is YOU who has to figure out what YOU believe.

By comparing things from different religions I believe that the Baha'i concept of "progressive" revelation isn't true... especially when some Baha'is use the "grade" school analogy. Baha'is put too much faith in believing that there was ever such a thing as the "original" message in those older religions.

All we got is Scriptures that are Holy and believed by the followers of that religion. I don't see them as being wrong, because they got changed over the years. I see the ones that have lasted and are still inspiring people as the truth as written and believed by those people in that culture. Maybe they had a vision. Maybe they spoke with God. Maybe they were hallucinating and thought they spoke to God. Maybe they had a messenger or incarnation that came from God or was a God. Maybe those stories are all fictional... Like Joseph Smith and the Golden Plates. I am amazed how successful that religion is. I think it's fiction, but Mormons believe it. As far as the Baha'i Faith goes, I hope it finally catches on and we can see if it is going to work or not. Can you imagine your whole city being Baha'is? And nine Baha'is out of your city would get elected to the LSA? How are they going to run a city? What would the 19 day Feast look like? Would they just let the old secular government keep doing what they do?

You guys have the laws from God, so I can't imagine letting Republican or Democrat politicians run things. But then again, if you are all be Baha'is, why would any of you call themselves Republican or Democrat? And how would the vote be much different than the vote you have for the LSA? Would you still let the court system keep going as is with ungodly laws in the books? Like abortion and letting gays get married? Would you give business licenses and permits to bars and strip clubs? Would you ban indecent music and art? Would you ban bikinis and other skimpy clothes?

And if it never gets that big.... what good is it? It's just one more religion.

 

[Deeje]

if the Abrahamic God is real, I don't like some of the things he's done in the world.

If you don't mind me asking....what "things" has he done in the world that you find breach his moral standards or code of justice?

 

[Trailblazer]

By comparing things from different religions I believe that the Baha'i concept of "progressive" revelation isn't true... especially when some Baha'is use the "grade" school analogy. Baha'is put too much faith in believing that there was ever such a thing as the "original" message in those older religions.

Fine, if that is what you choose to believe.

All we got is Scriptures that are Holy and believed by the followers of that religion. I don't see them as being wrong, because they got changed over the years. I see the ones that have lasted and are still inspiring people as the truth as written and believed by those people in that culture. Maybe they had a vision. Maybe they spoke with God. Maybe they were hallucinating and thought they spoke to God. Maybe they had a messenger or incarnation that came from God or was a God. Maybe those stories are all fictional... Like Joseph Smith and the Golden Plates. I am amazed how successful that religion is. I think it's fiction, but Mormons believe it.

Maybe maybe maybe. I am glad I am a Baha'i so I can separate fact from fiction.

As far as the Baha'i Faith goes, I hope it finally catches on and we can see if it is going to work or not. Can you imagine your whole city being Baha'is? And nine Baha'is out of your city would get elected to the LSA? How are they going to run a city? What would the 19 day Feast look like? Would they just let the old secular government keep doing what they do?

I do not think you will ever see that. I do not think that far into the future, only God knows the future.

You guys have the laws from God, so I can't imagine letting Republican or Democrat politicians run things. But then again, if you are all be Baha'is, why would any of you call themselves Republican or Democrat? And how would the vote be much different than the vote you have for the LSA? Would you still let the court system keep going as is with ungodly laws in the books? Like abortion and letting gays get married? Would you give business licenses and permits to bars and strip clubs? Would you ban indecent music and art? Would you ban bikinis and other skimpy clothes?

I do not believe Baha'is are ever going to get involved in politics, so they will never be running things. We cannot go against what is in the Writings, and that includes the Writings of the Guardian.

“The Faith which this order serves, safeguards and promotes is … essentially supernatural, supranational, entirely non-political, non-partisan, and diametrically opposed to any policy or school of thought that seeks to exalt any particular race, class or nation. It is free from any form of ecclesiasticism, has neither priesthood nor rituals, and is supported exclusively by voluntary contributions made by its avowed adherents. Though loyal to their respective governments, though imbued with the love of their own country, and anxious to promote at all times, its best interests, the followers of the Bahá’í Faith, nevertheless, viewing mankind as one entity, and profoundly attached to its vital interests, will not hesitate to subordinate every particular interest, be it personal, regional or national, to the over-riding interests of the generality of mankind, knowing full well that in a world of interdependent peoples and nations the advantage of the part is best to be reached by the advantage of the whole, and that no lasting result can be achieved by any of the component parts if the general interests of the entity itself are neglected….”
The Promised Day Is Come, vi - vii

And if it never gets that big.... what good is it? It's just one more religion.

A religion does not have to hold positions of power to have influence upon people. I believe that will happen eventually when everyone knows who Baha'u'llah was, because of what He wrote:

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248

 

[Trailblazer]

I've been told that the lessor peace will be established by the year 2000 by Baha'is. Then Christians told me Jesus is coming soon. I just to skeptical right now. And similar to you, if the Abrahamic God is real, I don't like some of the things he's done in the world.

Fair enough, but if you listen to what believers tell you, you will always be confused and skeptical.
As for God there is really no way we can ever know what He has done in the world.

As soon as a Baha'i says that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all the prophecies of all the major religions, it gives a reason for those in the other religions to find out what he has said, and to see if they think it is true or not. For those Baha'is that want to teach those in the other religions, they should know something about that other religion and how the Baha'i Faith is the fulfillment of that other religion. And then teach about how Baha'is believe that all the major religions are one and related and all from the same source, the one true God.

I do not think we have to know about all the major religions in order to teach the Baha'i Faith. If we say that Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies and people ask about them we can tell them what these prophecies are and how they were fulfilled. Then we can explain how Baha'is believe that all the major religions are one and related and all from the same source, the one true God.

 

[CG Didymus]

If you want to keep looking at all the religious beliefs in the world that is your choice, but I see no point looking at beliefs that makes no sense to me at all. If you do not like believe in progressive revelation I cannot see how you could ever be a Baha’i, since that is the underpinning theology of the Baha’i Faith.

Just by taking undergrad courses on comparative religion and courses about some of the different religions, it was easy to see how different they all are. If by chance they are all one I think the Buddhist analogy about the blind men describing an elephant is a lot better. They each described what they felt, but they couldn't see the big picture and see that the elephant was more than just the leg or the tail.

Progressive revelation, for me, does not deal with tribal religious beliefs. The whole held those beliefs and it kept that tribe together for hundreds of years. Some had shamans and vision quests and spirit animals guiding them. They had creation myths. Myths about their God. And prophecies about what was going to happen in the future. We still have tribal beliefs today, like the Hopi's in Arizona. And there is another tribe still following their ancient beliefs, the tribes of Judah. Baha'is do take their myths and add them into the Baha'i religion.

But do they do the same with the myths of the Greeks and Romans? Or other "pagan" people? The myths of the Far East... like Shintoism? Even the myths of the people of India? Baha'is barely touch on them. So, for me, progressive revelation is an inadequate explanation about how religions have evolved or progressed.

Looking at other religions does not cause confusion and doubt for me, not at all, but why would I need to check out all the other religions to know that a new religion is true? Do I need to check out all the used cars in the car lot before I buy a new car?

Well, for one thing, if you're going to buy a new car, which make would you chose? Then what model of car... or maybe a truck would better suit your needs? If so, a big truck, a small truck, a six or eight cylinder? A gas or diesel? Or maybe a Tesla electric truck? Then do you want some extras that aren't included? What color? Then you test drive it. Then you put a down payment on it and maybe a trade in and are now stuck with monthly payments. A month later the stupid thing breaks down, but it's still under warranty. The warranty runs out and then it breaks down again. You find out a small plastic part or a gasket is the problem but it's gong to cost a ton of money, because they have take have of the engine apart to get to it. Then you have an electrical problem. Then you get a flat tire. Then a rock hits the windshield. Then you spin out on a rainy day and hit a tree... And you think, maybe I'll buy a used car, since the initial cost would be as much, and some of those old cars were better built, not so many plastic parts. Then which year? Which make and model? Which color?...

But, we are talking religion. Sure, there is confusion, contradictions, and other problems in every religion. In days gone by, things were easier. You were taken to a church, or temple or some meeting place by your parents and that is what you believed. Then people started living closer and closer and having to deal with people with different beliefs. Some started questioning the beliefs of their parents and tried something else. Maybe it worked... kind of, but wasn't perfect. But how many people ever found the "perfect" religion? A religion that had all the right answers and all the right practices and beliefs? Most have things that might not be all that believable. Or, maybe some explanations aren't quite satisfactory. But, the religion works good enough, besides, religion is only part of life. You got your work all week and then for many... religion is only a Sunday morning thing.

Then other religions started gaining popularity. They promised a better more fulfilling life. Or, they revamped the old religion that made it more real and something that you could apply to your life every day. People learned how to meditate, do yoga, eat healthier, even become vegetarians. But these things were coming from Eastern religions. Then the Western religions got a big push with the "Jesus movement". Christians actually trying to live up to the teachings of Jesus every day. Then some Middle Eastern religion started making some noise. Saying that Jesus had already come back.

Most of us know a little by some basic beliefs of the other religions. Many have found a religious belief and practice that works for them and aren't looking to change. Some of those beliefs don't push their followers to go "spread" the word and "teach" others about their religion. Christians do. They have to go and tell people that Jesus is coming soon. And Baha'is do too. They need to spread the word that the "Christ" has returned. Today is a new day. Then people ask, "prove it". "Show me how that is true?" Then they ask, "But this religion says this and the Baha'is say that? Why? To be an effective Baha'i teacher, and because the Baha'i Faith says that all the major religions are one, then that is why I think they should learn a little bit about several religions. I think not to do so makes a Baha'i too much like those that only know their religion and don't want to know about any other religion.

I do not believe Baha'is are ever going to get involved in politics, so they will never be running things. We cannot go against what is in the Writings, and that includes the Writings of the Guardian.

I'm talking about "governing." Let's not say your whole city is Baha'i, but let's say 10,000 people out of a city of 100,000. How is the LSA going to govern all those people? Knowing that many people are falling into the cracks already even in small communities, how is the Baha'i Faith going to meet the needs of such a large amount of people? Will they start schools? Will there be several Baha'is that get together and start businesses that incorporate Baha'i ideals? That pay fair wages or maybe have profit sharing? Provide health care and child care? Won't the LSA members just be ordinary Baha'is? Or will people with knowledge and abilities to govern people and get things done be elected? Will the LSA have to judge cases about grievances between Baha'is? So will the LSA have members that have knowledge of the laws and how to judge? Will they be more like CEO's and delegate to others and form committees and departments that specialize in the different things necessary to run a large community of people? In other words, will it get to the point where they start doing all the things that a secular government is doing? But, it will be for the Baha's and the secular government will be for everybody.

Then, let's say, the Baha'i Faith grows even more in that city. Let's say 60,000 people. They are now the majority. And let's say that the Baha'is are doing a better more fair, more just and with little or no corruption. Why keep the secular government? Why keep partisan politics? Why wouldn't the people let the Baha'i methods run the whole city? Next question... could they? Or, will they become just as bad a bureaucracy as we already have? Will the leaders of the city really only be nine Baha'is elected by all the other Baha'is? How are those nine going to run everything? Since they probably aren't? How are Baha'is going to run whole cities? Or, even the 10,000 people in a large city?

 

[CG Didymus]

I have read the NT, and there are no verses that imply that Jesus is God. Those verses are just not there. What we see is Jesus saying He is not equal to God and God is c=greater than Him and we should serve God only. What we see is Jesus saying He is a Prophet. Never once in the NT did Jesus claim to be God, so it is a travesty that Christians bought off on the Church doctrines instead of reading the NT for themselves.

There are no verses that imply Jesus is God? Wow, I didn't know that. Christians told me that Jesus said he and his Father were one. And then that Jesus told a paralyzed man that his sins were forgiven and to get up and walk. Some of the people accused him of blasphemy, because only God could forgive sins. Then Jesus aske them what was easier to tell a person that their sins were forgiven or to tell them to get up and walk? Since the crippled man was healed and got up and walked, Jesus was implying that he did also forgive the man of his sins, which was implying that he had the authority to do things that only God could do.

Obviously they were lying to me. Maybe I should have read the NT for myself instead of trusting those no good lying Christians. Actually, if you would of said that they misinterpreted some verses that maybe, possibly could be seen to imply he was God, that is not the correct interpretation of those verses. Jesus is one in spirit with God. That God gave Jesus authority to forgive sins, but it is clear that God is spirit and doesn't incarnate into a human body. Jesus was a perfectly polished mirror and reflected God. Like if you saw the physical Sun in a mirror. Some might say that reflection was the Sun, but technically they'd be wrong. A reflection isn't the real thing.

So now let's go back 2000 years to not so scientifically astute religious people. They read words that other followers had written about Jesus. They read into it a little and figure... "Okay, Jesus was born of Mary and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is coming back to set up his Kingdom and reign with God. You know what, other religions have God/men that were half God and half human. Ours must be better than that. I think there is ample evidence in Scripture to declare Jesus is God along with the Holy Spirit and God the Father. Do we all agree?" Even if there were some of the bishops that disagreed, what chance did they have? They'd be stripped of their position. Were they right? Were they right about which books got accepted into the NT? Were the writers, like Paul, right about the things they said in their books? If the Baha'is are right, none of it is necessarily right. They got a make-believe story of a resurrection and ascension in it. They have a make believe story of God speaking from heaven. They have a make believe story of dead people coming out of their graves. They have a make believe story of Satan tempting Jesus. None of it, according to the Baha'is, really happened. And those things weren't merely implied, those were things that the writers said really happened. So if you don't believe those things, then of course you're not going to believe something that the early Christians came up with that at best was only implied in the NT. And that's the travesty? No, the whole NT, if not literally true, is a travesty, because it has misled people for 2000 years.

 

[CG Didymus]

If you don't mind me asking....what "things" has he done in the world that you find breach his moral standards or code of justice?

First, do you need to believe in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus to be saved? Do all that reject him go to hell? Then, there has been people before and after Jesus that had other "gods" and other beliefs... are they all wrong and therefore condemned by God? Then we have people who thought they believed in Jesus, but they belonged to a church that didn't teach the truth about God and Jesus, what's God going to do with them?

Now, if we assume the Bible is literal. God set up Adam and Eve for the fall. Why put a tree in the middle of the garden and tell Adam not to eat its fruit? Like why not put some cherubim around it guarding it with swords ready to fend off Adam or his kids from getting too close... and maybe any birds or squirrels that might get in there and try and eat some of the fruit. Oh, and what about the ripened fruit? Did it fall to the ground and then little trees of the knowledge of good and evil sprout up? Anyway, the set up... God has a lying, cheating talking serpent in the garden? Why? Except to try and deceive Adam and Eve, and the serpent succeeded. As if God didn't know what was going to happen. He set them up and then cursed them. Or, it's all a myth.

He created people in such a way that they become uncontrollably evil? Except Noah and his family? And since no one if perfect, why these people? Where was the cut off line that determined who was too evil to be spared? Anyway, God kills them all. Did God succeed in getting rid of the problem of evil in the world? No, he killed those evil people and then the descendance of Noah again become too evil.

Most start worshipping other gods. God has his people kill some of them. But never all of them. God kills of some of his people too. He has one person draw his sword and kill the person next to them. He has his people enslaved for several centuries, then sends them off to wander in the wilderness for forty years. Then has them kill and take over the land of Canaan. He has them kill all the woman and children and animals in some of the cities. He wants his people to sacrifice animals to him. Are you sure this is how an all-loving and just God would act? Or, its all Jewish religious mythology... maybe with some historical things mixed in.

Then Jesus... God doesn't have him write anything down. His followers write the stuff down and then over the centuries interpret it and set up a religious rulership based on it. That rulership gets too corrupt. Some Christians break away and start over. They don't get everything right. Finally comes the Jehovah Witnesses. Out of all the religions and people in the world, including people in the other Christian churches have it right? Or, are only the Jehovah Witnesses right? If so, what does God have planned for the rest of the people? Is it all the bad things in Revelation? Then God isn't all that nice a guy. He's created a world that has lots of choices and most of them are wrong and most people are going to follow the wrong ones. Then He, the all-knowing, all-loving God of the universe, is going to punish them. At least the Baha'i version of God is a little bit nicer, but He's still going to put the world through hell for rejecting his latest messenger.

Would you raise you kids like this? "Okay Susie and Katie, one of you has lied to us. Katie, I want you to take this knife and stab your sister." "Billie, the neighbors are following false gods. I want you and your brothers to surround their house and blow these horns. We're then going to blow up the walls of their house and I want you and your brothers to go in and kill the mother and father and all their kids and to kill their pet dog too." "You know we have put aside lots of money and have this great big house. Those of you kids that have continued to obey us and serve us faithfully will get an inheritance. Those of you that have gone their own way are going to feel our wrath. First, we are going to send plagues, then famine and finally burn down your house with you in it."

To me, religion, most all religions, is mainly set up to get people to obey rules out of fear of punishment or the joy of a great reward for being obedient to an invisible God. Bad things happen to relatively good people and bad people alike. And good things happen to both. The promise, one of these days, is that God will reward the good and punish the evil. Is this God real or just a myth. If only the God as defined by the Jehovah Witnesses is real, then the Gods of all the other religions are mythical. For me, I get the feeling that all Gods might be partially or totally mythical. So it isn't a question of God breaching His standards. It's a question of people making up their own ideas of what God is, and using those ideas to explain why the world is how it is.