Can Atheists Imagine?

[Blindinglight]

It seems to me people beg to be told about sin. I don't judge anyone. How many threads do you see that start out with, "whats wrong with this" or "Is this a sin?"or "what does the bible have to say about this and that".

This is simply sumed up as we are in the demographic area for it. Go to Pakistan, and people will ask what does the Quran ask about it.

A religion recently invented in the last 100 years to accommodate a persons way of thinking. Generally ... and are making the rules to fit their needs.

Hmmm.....that last part fits Xtianity quite well.

I sure hope you do not think I do this Gentoo.

She might not, but I do.
That, along with "the greatest lie Satan ever told was conviencing the world he doesn't exist" make it to be a very convienent religion. Everything about it is nothing but covering it's tracks. A disaster happens, it's because of that area being sinful. Something good happens, it's gods blessing. What happen to man's own accomplishments, and the earths own weather patterns?

 

[Reverend Rick]

A disaster happens, it's because of that area being sinful. Something good happens, it's gods blessing. What happen to man's own accomplishments, and the earths own weather patterns?

I believe that man's own accomplishments and the earth's own weather patterns are what they are and people who try and give God credit for everything are out there, but many people have experienced miracles as well.

God could control the weather if he wanted to, but I believe weather is just weather and was put into motion by him and left to chance after that. God is satisfied with his creation and already knows the outcome before it happens so there is no need to control it. It is preprogrammed if you will.

 

[rojse]

So everyone who dies in an earthquake or flood can blame God because he could not be bothered to fix the problem?

 

[Gentoo]

She might not, but I do.

I've said neither one way nor the other, I said that I've seen what I need, and I stand by that.

 

[kmkemp]

I imagined for a second or three.
I do not worry about such matters.
600 years ago your quite right we would have all been suckered into believing the world was flat but we have advanced a million fold since then and i have nearly two decades of education behind me plus my wealth of private research into many things.
Education is in my humble view the only thing that matters when forming opinions.
I was raised a catholic i am well aware of christian dogma and scriptures.
My subsequent education has superseeded that to the point that its no longer relevant.
Good thread though and im sending you a frubal

You do realize that we have known the world wasn't flat for more than two thousand years right? It seems to me that your "private research and advanced education" have been nothing more than you listening to what other people have already learned and choosing which you want to believe.

 

[Reverend Rick]

So everyone who dies in an earthquake or flood can blame God because he could not be bothered to fix the problem?

Why no, we should all live to be as old as Moses was. If God was to intervene, that would change things. If things were changed, profacy would become inaccurate.

What if he stopped the rain that caused Noah's flood?

Who are we to question why God does what he does? That is pretty arrogant. Perhaps you should invent the sun and the moon and the planets and animals and plants and an eco system and have everything in perfect balance before you find fault.

 

[Blindinglight]

Why no, we should all live to be as old as Moses was.

I would rather blow my brains out than live like that.
THere is no way I can ever go back to living as a Christian, Jew, or any religion again.

 

[Fluffy]

Heya Reverand Rick,

Perhaps the reason is, Heaven and Hell cannot be proven.

That might be the reason but it isn't the reason.

2 of my beliefs:
1) The only conclusions we should hold to be true are those that are induced from available evidence.
2) If we are not aware of a particular piece of evidence then we should not act as if it does just in case it does.

Why is this relevant? Well on a very basic level, my atheism is the result of those two beliefs. I am aware of no evidence for hell and heaven and so don't believe in them. When I find evidence, I will convert but that is entirely irrelevant at the moment because, from my point of view, they have no impact on my life.

OK, you have bared with me this far, I want you to imagine one more thing. Go back in time 600 years ago. People thought the world was flat. If you lived in that time with the same mindset you have today, you cannot deny that you would have believed the world was flat because it could not be proven the world was round at that time.

I think you have chosen a poor example because there have always been good reasons to believe that the world is not flat and no reason to assume that it is. Just the mere fact that everyone believed it should be viewed by any self-respecting sceptic as reason enough to doubt it.

However, I get your point. If there was a situation in which the evidence that was available lead me to a false conclusion then I would be holding beliefs that are wrong.

I don't really know what to say to that except that if you are acting under the assumption that this is anything other than virtually inevitable then we disagree on a very fundamental level. One of the tenants of scepticism is to keep that thought in your mind at all times since anything could be false even those beliefs you hold most deeply to be true.

I suppose it is a difference in language. The theist feels he can attain certain knowledge and so says he knows God. The atheist feels he cannot know anything so uses the term to mean that which he currently accepts as being most likely. Afterall we can't live our lives without making conclusions. It is only when you assume that those conclusions are true that you fall flat on your face.

If you are right that there is no after life, you won't know your right, but if your wrong about this, you will have an eternity to think about your decision.

Essentially this is a reworded Pascal's wager which is rejected by all atheists and a large number of theists. As such, there has been a great deal written on why it should be rejected but I will just go through my favourite reasons.

1) We cannot manipulate ourselves into believing something. Lets say I point a gun at your head and tell you that I'm going to kill you in 10 seconds. It would be better from your perspective if you chose to believe that myself and the gun didn't exist because then you would live your final 10 seconds in blissful ignorance. So why don't you? Because you can't force yourself to believe something just because you know it will be best for you.

Lets say for a moment that Pascal got his odds right (and I don't think he did: see below), and that I do have a greater shot at happiness if I convert to theism. I still can't bring myself to convert because my rational brain is telling me that it is irrelevant whether God exists because I can't see any evidence for him. I'm not choosing not to believe in him and so I can't make the choice to start. The only thing that will cause me to start is a particular kind of experience.

2) Most Gods have defined specific criteria for what is required of me in order to get into heaven. The key here is motivation. If I believe in God because of Pascal's wager then surely I fall short of heaven still because this is a selfish reason. I cannot love God because I am only believing in him to save my own skin. Any morally good act I do will again just be self serving because I will be doing it in order to adhere to his moral structure and get into heaven.

3) Based on the last point, I should choose to believe in the existence of a God who won't care about my motivation for doing so. Which neatly brings us to the next problem of choosing which deity to believe in. Most theists would like me to believe in their deity. I'm not sure if you do but hopefully you can see the problem. If one God offers me heaven for believing in him for virtuous reasons and another offers me heaven for believing him for selfish reasons then I should choose the latter. If one God expects me to adhere to his moral structure and another expects me to adhere to my own then I should choose the latter. If one God offers me 200 tasty chocolate bars in heaven and another offers me 2 million then, again, my choice seems obvious.

 

[McBell]

Who are we to question why God does what he does? That is pretty arrogant. Perhaps you should invent the sun and the moon and the planets and animals and plants and an eco system and have everything in perfect balance before you find fault.

Arrogant?
It is your deity that is arrogant.
with all his 'obey me with out question lest you burn in hell for all eternity' stance on the littlest of infractions.

But even more importantly, how am I to know that YOUR God is the THE GOD?
With all the other possible Gods out there, How would your God feel I accept your pascal's wager with them all?
You know, "just in case?"
Then I would be covered regardless of which deity is the 'one true God.'
But since your deity must think it is ok to believe to merely cover the bases, then all that nonsense about not having any other god...will be over looked because you know, we all sin.
We just needs to ask for forgiveness.

 

[MBones]

Mr. Rick,

I say that with respect, Go back that long ago, the scriptures tell us that the world is only a few thousand years old;. Well Mr. Rick tell me about the fossiles I have found that are over milliions of years old. Is that a scheme to trick the faithful? What does that mean? well I can tell you Mr. rick that evolution has made it's way into this world and has made you my friend, and your realatives, No you probably didn't come from apes, and you can agrue that one,but you did come from thier ancestors across Africa years ago.

 

[gnostic]

I find it particularly arrogant that we don't use our brains, to find the truth for ourselves. You expect everyone to just accept what we see, hear and believe without question is bordered upon of being feeble mind.

I don't want to invent the sun or moon or the stars. However, I would love to know how it work, and I am willing to find the truth for myself.

If we have to rely on Christianity to give us all the knowledge, we will still be living in the Dark Ages, thinking world is flat and the earth is the centre of the universe. We would stink like the sewage, because we would not bath as regularly we do now.

The damn Roman church would have us all living in ignorant of what's really going on the world, had they had their ways. The church had jealously hid knowledge and truth for centuries.

No thanks, Rick. Maybe you can rely on your church to dole out tidbit of fact and knowledge to you. I don't want to rely on religion to provide me with knowledge I seek, because I don't trust your church to tell me the truth.

 

[MBones]

Gnostic,
I agree.... How could a church, which I grew up with, ignore the homosexual and pedofile ways that has laid to so many lawsuits today, still be a respected faith in America? that is what I want to know. I have long relinquished my ties to the Roman Catholic church but how could the followers stil respect men who are accused child abusers? How could they live with that? What is going on there? I will tell you... Faith is still stronger that any thing in this world and if those clergy say they are sorry for what they did, then those followers willl forgive them, not me, those son of a *****es owe something, and that is those childrens lives which they took from them and we owe it to them not to recognize a religion which condones or hides the pedofiles in them. All religion is bad, and the catholic church is just another way to show that.

 

[Ozzie]

Remember the old Beatles song, Imagine?

Imagine there's no heaven, it isn't hard to do. No hell below us, and no religion too.

OK, I want to reverse this song for Atheists to consider, just for a moment, that there just might be be a heaven and hell in an after life.

All right, moments over now. That was not so bad was it? Now that you imagined for a moment, if your a true Atheist, you rejected this thought for a reason. Perhaps the reason is, Heaven and Hell cannot be proven. Not believing in something that cannot be proven really has more merit than believing in something that cannot be proved. This makes more sense to the analytical mind.

I really believe Atheists are the most strong willed people because they are not afraid of things that cannot be proven. That makes alot of sense.

OK, you have bared with me this far, I want you to imagine one more thing. Go back in time 600 years ago. People thought the world was flat. If you lived in that time with the same mindset you have today, you cannot deny that you would have believed the world was flat because it could not be proven the world was round at that time.

That said, one of us is wrong now. I may be wrong about heaven and hell's existence.

Let's say I am wrong about all of this. When I die, I won't know I am wrong about this.

Let's say that just perhaps I am right about Heaven and Hell. I am going to a better place.

If you are right that there is no after life, you won't know your right, but if your wrong about this, you will have an eternity to think about your decision.

You may say I'm a believer, but I'm not the only one, that all the world will live as one.

 

[Smoke]

Who are we to question why God does what he does? That is pretty arrogant. Perhaps you should invent the sun and the moon and the planets and animals and plants and an eco system and have everything in perfect balance before you find fault.

I don't question what God does. I question the assertions of people who claim, with no evidence whatsoever, to know what God does -- and what he thinks about nearly everything. When I criticize God, I'm not criticizing an actual being; I'm just criticizing an idea.

It seems to me that what's really arrogant is to imagine that one has a personal relationship with the Creator of the Universe, and that he will grant eternal rewards and punishments to people on the basis of their adherence to one's own arbitrary and unsubstantiated opinions.

 

[MBones]

What is this personal relation with the creator? How have you obtained this? What happened? How come I have never had this? Do you have it on tape, did you talk to a supreme being? What did you say, and did "it" talk to you. Did he or she speak English, or the language that you speak? Or was he/she for the Amecican plight more than that of other countries? Is countries of the world evil??/ How can we know which ones? Is war an answer? it should not be if our God is a God of peace. How can we invade a country and kill innoocent civilians and do it in the name of God as the President has? Yes, terrorists are out there and yes we should put them down but why strike a sovergn nation in the process and let the terroists go in a country that the world only put few soldiers in?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Yes, terrorists are out there and yes we should put them down but why strike a sovergn nation in the process and let the terroists go in a country that the world only put few soldiers in?

We fight the terrorists over there to keep them over there. Terrorists kill women and children, (even their own). At least we are fighting the terrorists with our men that volunteered and were trained and armed.

Iraq is a staging ground for the Iran war. We have a strategic position in the middle east and we plan on keeping it. At least I am willing to lay the cards on the table.

This all ties to armageddon, the tribulation period and Israel.

 

[McBell]

We fight the terrorists over there to keep them over there. Terrorists kill women and children, (even their own). At least we are fighting the terrorists with our men that volunteered and were trained and armed.

Iraq is a staging ground for the Iran war. We have a strategic position in the middle east and we plan on keeping it. At least I am willing to lay the cards on the table.

This all ties to armageddon, the tribulation period and Israel.

Will you go so far as to even present a date?

 

[Smoke]

Iraq is a staging ground for the Iran war.

I've never heard anybody admit that before. Congratulations, I guess.

However, you may be in for a let-down. I think we're rapidly approaching the point where support for Bush's policies in Iraq will be political suicide, even for Republicans.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Will you go so far as to even present a date?

At the risk of of offending someone, anyone who claims to know a date is deluded.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I've never heard anybody admit that before. Congratulations, I guess.

However, you may be in for a let-down. I think we're rapidly approaching the point where support for Bush's policies in Iraq will be political suicide, even for Republicans.

Ahhh, we still have a year and a half to get things so screwed up, it will take the next President several years to clean up the mess. We have more than enough time to accomplish several agendas.