Can Atheists Imagine?

[Reverend Rick]

The problem here is that people believe Christians are not suppose to sin.

Everyone sins and fall short of our lord.

 

[Sonic247]

How about a new life? Parents that love and appreciate me? My injuries fully healed? Mental conditions magically gone overnight? And there are alot of other things I would ask for.

I don't want to preach the wealth and prosperity gospel, getting saved is from your own sins and involves repentance not on outside effects of an evil world, but on the other hand those thing are entirely possible.

 

[Sonic247]

Isn't that sometimes called a "holy sin?"

Or maybe "the ends justify the means."
[/indent]

Nah, it doesn't work like that when it comes to the Gospel, because we can't save anyone, maybe God will work through us, and if we keep his commands he is more likely too, and his commands will have a great effect when we follow them if the world saw that we lived honestly and loved one another they could more easily glorify God.

 

[McBell]

Isaiah 64:5
Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righeousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

I fail to see how these even hint that it is fine with God to willing break his commandments for anything, let alone for recruiting purposes.

The problem here is that people believe Christians are not suppose to sin.

Are you saying that it is acceptable to God to willingly, purposely, and knowing sin because you will be forgiven?
Because to use this as a defense for those who willingly, purposely, and knowingly break Gods commandments is pretty much saying exactly that.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I fail to see how these even hint that it is fine with God to willing break his commandments for anything, let alone for recruiting purposes.


Are you saying that it is acceptable to God to willingly, purposely, and knowing sin because you will be forgiven?
Because to use this as a defense for those who willingly, purposely, and knowingly break Gods commandments is pretty much saying exactly that.

You keep trying to pigeon hole me into a position I do not hold. Then you want me to debate from that position.

Some folks will do anything to get you saved. They have in the past and they will in the future. That is what I said.

I do not do this. The Lord does not condone this. If someone did do this, they would be forgiven, that is all I am saying.

 

[Gentoo]

Some folks will do anything to get you saved. They have in the past and they will in the future. That is what I said.

But why do they resort to any means necessary? How can they justify breaking the rules to bring those same rules to others? Do you feel that it's wrong, or have any opinion on it?

 

[McBell]

If someone did do this, they would be forgiven, that is all I am saying.

So what is the point in keeping any of Gods Commandments?
I mean, you are going to be forgiven, so why even bother with them to begin with?

Go ahead and abort all those unborn, you will be forgiven.
Kinda makes the position that it is wrong seem like nothing more than a hobby.
Something to be done in ones spare time.

 

[Reverend Rick]

But why do they resort to any means necessary? How can they justify breaking the rules to bring those same rules to others? Do you feel that it's wrong, or have any opinion on it?

The Lord does not condone it, I do not do it. I feel it is wrong, but sympathise with the situation. Just because I don't adamately oppose it does not mean I am going to defend this practice. If you want someone to justify it, it won't be me doing it.

I believe I have been as clear as I can be on this situation.

This is not aimed at you Gentoo, but why do people hear someone say one thing and then ask them if they are saying something else?

If I don't do something personally, why would I defend some one else when I have stated what they do is wrong?

 

[Reverend Rick]

So what is the point in keeping any of Gods Commandments?
I mean, you are going to be forgiven, so why even bother with them to begin with?

Go ahead and abort all those unborn, you will be forgiven.
Kinda makes the position that it is wrong seem like nothing more than a hobby.
Something to be done in ones spare time.

Christians are not perfect, just forgiven by God's grace. We did not make the rules, God did. Hey, I have an idea. Come to heaven with me and when we get there, you can ask God himself about this.

 

[Gentoo]

The Lord does not condone it, I do not do it. I feel it is wrong, but sympathise with the situation. Just because I don't adamately oppose it does not mean I am going to defend this practice. If you want someone to justify it, it won't be me doing it.

I believe I have been as clear as I can be on this situation.

This is not aimed at you Gentoo, but why do people hear someone say one thing and then ask them if they are saying something else?

If I don't do something personally, why would I defend some one else when I have stated what they do is wrong?

I wasn't saying you did, I did notice several times that you said that you did not do this and I'm not asking you to justify it, I'm just wondering why some do. Why they feel that they need to go such lengths that they would break they're own rules. Please, just help me understand this.

 

[McBell]

I wasn't saying you did, I did notice several times that you said that you did not do this and I'm not asking you to justify it, I'm just wondering why some do. Why they feel that they need to go such lengths that they would break they're own rules. Please, just help me understand this.

I agree.
And I will even add that I understand that it is a small minority (at least right now, though it seems that the number is growing) of Christians who do these things.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I wasn't saying you did, I did notice several times that you said that you did not do this and I'm not asking you to justify it, I'm just wondering why some do. Why they feel that they need to go such lengths that they would break they're own rules. Please, just help me understand this.

Because they believe that the people they care about and want to bring to the Lord will be cast into the lake of fire if they don't get saved. They break their own rules because they care so much about the person they are trying to get saved.

This is very unpopular. I don't like saying this especially to Pagans. I used to be Pagan and I love Pagans. If I have been evasive about this, it is because I don't want to offend you because I like you Gentoo.

 

[Gentoo]

Because they believe that the people they care about and want to bring to the Lord will be cast into the lake of fire if they don't get saved. They break their own rules because they care so much about the person they are trying to get saved.

This is very unpopular.

Okay, I get what you're saying.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, you and someone who went to these lengths were "working" on the same person, and your partner started implementing these tactics. Would you say something? Anything?

And you don't have to worry about offending me I'm usually understanding

 

[Reverend Rick]

I cannot say what I would do. I guess it would depend on how far they stepped over the line.

I understand the Pagan movement. Organised religion has done more to create the Pagan movement than Gardner ever has. People want to be spiritual without all the sexist, homophobic, conservative rhetoric.

 

[Gentoo]

I cannot say what I would do. I guess it would depend on how far they stepped over the line.

That's a fair response, thank you.

I understand the Pagan movement. Organised religion has done more to create the Pagan movement than Gardner ever has. People want to be spiritual without all the sexist, homophobic, conservative rhetoric.

Umm... With all due respect, what does this whole thing have to do with Paganism?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Many folks who found Paganism used to go to Christian churches and were turned off by organised religion. You could say they were drove away. They began a search for something that suited them and found Paganism. The internet has been very useful for folks of like mind to meet.

 

[Gentoo]

Many folks who found Paganism used to go to Christian churches and were turned off by organised religion. You could say they were drove away. They began a search for something that suited them and found Paganism. The internet has been very useful for folks of like mind to meet.

True, but that doesn't really answer my question. We were talking about Christians going to any lengths possible to convert and why they did that. How did that suddenly become about Paganism?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Because I evangalise to Pagans on their death bed. Not against their will, most that find out that I used to be Pagan are willing to have a spiritual conversation with me.

 

[Sonic247]

Old trick. And a pretty sad appeal, at that. "Well, we might be right, so it's better to just not take a chance!" And I wouldn't want to worship a God who accepted "well I didn't want to take a chance on hell" as an excuse for real worship.

Maybe any other religion is right, Rick. Then you'll have an eternity to think about your decision. Hopping on the religion-change boat yet?

Actually we would still be pretty well of if another religion was right, if it was Mormonism for example we would probably still end up in the terrestrial kingdom or maybe the tellestlial, the only one that would condemn us would be Islam and some forms of Satanism.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Many folks who found Paganism used to go to Christian churches and were turned off by organised religion. You could say they were drove away. They began a search for something that suited them and found Paganism. The internet has been very useful for folks of like mind to meet.

You are aware that the term "Pagan" refers to ALL religions that are non-Abrahamic?
The common definition though is earth based religions, such as Druids, which have been around MUCH longer than Christianity. This makes it impossible for even a few people to "found" Paganism, due to it being and umbrella term.
The Norse, Egyptian, Hindu, and many other religions also out-date Christianity.
Thus, it was quite impossible for someone of a Native American, Druid, Shaman, Mayan, Aztec, or whatever to go to a Christian church, as they didn't exist. And some, especially in the case of North and South American tribes, the church never did exist on these lands until after white man came.
Back then, computers were not even thought of, which has made the internet non-existant.
Also, say what you want, but Wicca was founded during the 1940's. Long before the internet was widly available to the public. I even have a Wiccan book that was published in 1973, still before the internet was widly available. NeoPaganism has been growing before the internet became a common thing. Granted it has grown more with the internet, but it would still exist without. I myself would even still be Pagan without the internet.