Can Atheists Imagine?

[mr.guy]

Contrary to how much I'm participating on this thread, I'm a theist

*Imagination*

 

[Blindinglight]

Really, it's not that hard to imagine hell. While I would have no desires to go there, I find the notion of a place of "an all loving and merciful" god damning someone to eternal torment for a finite amount of crimes to be laughable. I also find the concept of hell and the devil to be a scare tactic, used to scare the uneducated masses into church, and still today.

 

[Tranzient]

Some of the arguments about believing in a god basically say "Well, if I'm right, I go to heaven. If not, nothing happens." It sounds to me like a gambling game. "I have better chances in my afterlife with this religion." I would say that if that is the sole purpose you picked your religion, then you probably are doing something wrong.

Another thing to consider is that if you follow a religion solely based on where you end up versus you just believe it's true, then you are not (by most religion's standards) not going to heaven. An hypothetical example would be if someone were to stop being Christian because they found out Jesus was the son of God but there is no afterlife, that would mean that person is in the religion for the afterlife, not for Jesus. Would that person get into heaven? I hope this wasn't too confusing, I know it confused me, lol.

 

[Booko]

If I was an atheist, I sure would not participate in a religious forum. It would never even cross my mind. This is one reason I believe many Atheists here are really Agnostic and do not realize it.

So just because *you* wouldn't do it, no one else would?

I actually was an atheist for years (no "if" about it), so I have some actual evidence to base my comment on.

For a final point, do you suppose you would appreciate it if the non-Christians around here went around and told you what you "really" believe?







Hm...I thought not.


Do I really have to mention the Golden Rule about now???

 

[Autodidact]

Jaymes, you have to admit, If I am wrong, it will be painless. I won't even know I'm wrong.

But just think of all those Sunday mornings you wasted!

 

[Autodidact]

You may say I'm a dreamer. But i'm not the only one. I hope some day you'll join us. And the whole world will live as one.

Only if you:
Imagine there's no heaven,
and no religion too...

 

[Autodidact]

This life you live right now is but on tiny grain of sand on a beach of potential eternity.

Or not. How do you know? And btw what is potential eternity and how is it different from actual eternity.

btw I'm a brand newbie so just spank me if I'm violating the local customs. Thanks.

 

[Autodidact]

If I was an atheist, I sure would not participate in a religious forum. It would never even cross my mind. This is one reason I believe many Atheists here are really Agnostic and do not realize it.

And if I had 4 legs, I'd be a horse. Your point? (Mine is that counter-factual conditionals are not informative.)

 

[Autodidact]

I guess I will burn in hell trying to save souls.

Or you'll just be dead, like the rest of us.

 

[Autodidact]

So when I go to the hospital and visit with dieing people and try to save them at the last minute, do you believe that is dishonest?

No, not if you honestly believe. It is, however, obnoxious and arrogant. Basically, the trick is to imagine yourself in the other person's shoes. You're in the hospital. You're dying. Your family is there to say good-bye. Suddenly, a Muslim knocks on the door and offers you a chance to convert to Islam, warning you that the alternative is to burn in Hell for all eternity. Is this something you appreciate at that moment? Honestly is not enough, there is also such a thing as courtesy.

 

[gnostic]

To each their own, everyone is at different stages of their spiritual evolution. You are obviously a younger spirit due to your mentality and path.

I am standing on the crossroad of my path. I have been standing on it for years...still tossing my coin, to see which path to take.

LOL I still don't know which path to take.

Do I take the left road? Or should I venture the right path? Do I take the long, scenic route? Or should I take the short-cut?

My guess that each path has its pros and pitfalls.

Perhaps I don't need to choose either road. Me being agnostic, perhaps, I should simply cross the unbeaten grassy track or heads into the woods, and see where the winds will take me.

 

[lilithu]

And if we're both wrong? Who knows what kind of place of punishment we'll end up in! Why, we could end up scooping the Invisible Pink Unicorn's poo for all eternity!

Aw, holy crap.


:angel2:

 

[logician]

As an atheist I have had a couple of near death experiences, and did not have the so-called "fox-hole" conversion. I know that death is the end of existence and am resigned to it. I often wonder about those (including members of my family) who believed in god when they died, and what they really thought when the end came.

 

[lilithu]

More seriously, one can easily imagine a jealous God that would respond with supernatural malevolence to some dumb schmuck who chose to worship the wrong deity in the hopes of winning some simple-minded wager.

Or even the "right" deity. If I were said jealous God, I wouldn't look kindly on anyone who was only worshiping me just to get into my heaven.

 

[lilithu]

I guess I will burn in hell trying to save souls.

Or you'll burn in hell for trying to play God. Only the Holy Spirit can save souls.

 

[lilithu]

Stained glass to apease sun god worshipers.

LOL.:areyoucra

 

[lilithu]

Except if there is no afterlife, you wasted a lot of time in this life chasing a fantasy.

Not just a lot of time. You've wasted your whole life.

If you are Christian only for the sake of some future reward in an afterlife, then if there is no afterlife, you've wasted this one precious life that you've been given.

Whereas if you are Christian because you believe in the goodness of Jesus' teachings and live each day with true love towards one's fellow humans and gratitude for this life, then even if there is no afterlife, you've already gotten your reward.

(Except for the Jesus part, that pretty much goes for any other faith, imo.)

 

[lilithu]

Like pain and torment? You all don't think this is even possible do you?

If God is just, then no. It's not possible.

And if God is unjust, then I'd rather not be in the same "place" as "him" anyway.

How could anyone enjoy heaven while knowing that others were suffering in torment for no other reason than that they did not believe the right thing? I wouldn't want to be with such a God or such a people.

 

[Smoke]

OK, I want to reverse this song for Atheists to consider, just for a moment, that there just might be be a heaven and hell in an after life.

It's not hard to imagine, since I was a Christian till I was 45.

Let's say that just perhaps I am right about Heaven and Hell. I am going to a better place.

If there were a god, and he were the sort of vindictive being who chose to torture most of humanity for all eternity, it might just be that suck-ups who only wanted to serve their own interests would anger him more than the other sinners.

If I was an atheist, I sure would not participate in a religious forum. It would never even cross my mind. This is one reason I believe many Atheists here are really Agnostic and do not realize it.

Well, honestly, I wasn't an atheist when I first got here. But when I was a Christian I was always interested in other religions, especially Buddhism and Paganism, and I don't see any reason my interest should end just because I no longer believe in God. In fact, there are a lot of religious people who don't believe in any personal god, and a number of religions that don't require any such belief.

We did not make the rules, God did.

That's just the thing: "you" (that is, the people who developed your particular set of religious beliefs) did make the rules, and not just because God is "your" imaginary friend and his rules necessarily correspond to "your" own. Different kinds of Christians have different rules, and the particular "rules" of what we now call Evangelical Christianity were unknown anywhere in the world 200 years ago. Even if there were undeniably a God, and even if Christianity were indisputably the only true religion, Evangelicals would still need to show that their particular kind of Christianity were the True (or Best) Christianity. In my opinion, and for my taste, it's a peculiarly unconvincing and unsatisfying kind of Christianity.

I didn't intend to become an atheist; I was quite surprised when I realized I was an atheist. Lately, I was surprised to find that I still have very strong opinions about theological disputes within my former religion. After giving it a bit of thought, it seems to me that even though all theisms are almost certainly untrue, some are morally and intellectually superior to others.

According to Matthew, Jesus said, "Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

So my question for anyone who wants me to accept his faith is this: What are the fruits of your faith? Many Christians try to dodge that question with the saying, "Christians aren't perfect -- just forgiven." (At least, it's a very popular bumper sticker where I live.) But I think it's a question that in all fairness and honesty must be answered. What are the objective results of your faith? Are the people of your faith kinder, more compassionate, more honest, more rational than the people of other faiths? If so, specify how. Are scientists of your faith the most rigorous scientists? Are historians of your faith the most objective historians? Are the people of your faith the most likely to respect the rights of people of other faiths, or no faith? Does your faith consider women equal to men? Are the people of your faith the people most likely to believe that lesbians and gay men should have equal rights? Are they the people most likely to work for economic justice? Most likely to behave responsibly toward the environment?

Looking in at faith from outside of faith, it seems to me that some religions are vastly preferable to -- bear better fruits than -- others. I have greater regard for neo-paganism, Jainism, post-Christian religions like Unitarianism, and some forms of Buddhism precisely because it seems to me that those religions conduce to better behavior.

As a gay man living in the Bible Belt, I have especially felt the sting of the wrath of Evangelical Christians, and while I'm still far better off than gay men who have the misfortune to live in Muslim countries, I'm not at all sure that I would be if those Evangelicals were to have their way. I'm entirely certain I'd be worse off than I am now.

I don't think I'll ever believe in any god again, but I can't say that for certain; after all, as Booko has pointed out, she was once an atheist, too. I can say for certain that I will never, of my own free will, accept any form of belief that leads its followers to act with malice toward anyone, even if they call that malice obedience to God or insist that it's for their victims' own good.

 

[Reverend Rick]

It's not hard to imagine, since I was a Christian till I was 45.


If there were a god, and he were the sort of vindictive being who chose to torture most of humanity for all eternity, it might just be that suck-ups who only wanted to serve their own interests would anger him more than the other sinners.


Well, honestly, I wasn't an atheist when I first got here. But when I was a Christian I was always interested in other religions, especially Buddhism and Paganism, and I don't see any reason my interest should end just because I no longer believe in God. In fact, there are a lot of religious people who don't believe in any personal god, and a number of religions that don't require any such belief.


That's just the thing: "you" (that is, the people who developed your particular set of religious beliefs) did make the rules, and not just because God is "your" imaginary friend and his rules necessarily correspond to "your" own. Different kinds of Christians have different rules, and the particular "rules" of what we now call Evangelical Christianity were unknown anywhere in the world 200 years ago. Even if there were undeniably a God, and even if Christianity were indisputably the only true religion, Evangelicals would still need to show that their particular kind of Christianity were the True (or Best) Christianity. In my opinion, and for my taste, it's a peculiarly unconvincing and unsatisfying kind of Christianity.

I didn't intend to become an atheist; I was quite surprised when I realized I was an atheist. Lately, I was surprised to find that I still have very strong opinions about theological disputes within my former religion. After giving it a bit of thought, it seems to me that even though all theisms are almost certainly untrue, some are morally and intellectually superior to others.

According to Matthew, Jesus said, "Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

So my question for anyone who wants me to accept his faith is this: What are the fruits of your faith?

Bringing souls to Christ.

As a gay man living in the Bible Belt, I have especially felt the sting of the wrath of Evangelical Christians, and while I'm still far better off than gay men who have the misfortune to live in Muslim countries, I'm not at all sure that I would be if those Evangelicals were to have their way. I'm entirely certain I'd be worse off than I am now.

We Evangelicals do have our way, and causing physical harm to anyone is not on the agenda of anyone that I know of.