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Can Europe be Saved?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
From the New York Times:

THERE’S SOMETHING peculiarly apt about the fact that the current European crisis began in Greece. For Europe’s woes have all the aspects of a classical Greek tragedy, in which a man of noble character is undone by the fatal flaw of hubris.

Not long ago Europeans could, with considerable justification, say that the current economic crisis was actually demonstrating the advantages of their economic and social model. Like the United States, Europe suffered a severe slump in the wake of the global financial meltdown; but the human costs of that slump seemed far less in Europe than in America. In much of Europe, rules governing worker firing helped limit job loss, while strong social-welfare programs ensured that even the jobless retained their health care and received a basic income. Europe’s gross domestic product might have fallen as much as ours, but the Europeans weren’t suffering anything like the same amount of misery. And the truth is that they still aren’t.

Yet Europe is in deep crisis — because its proudest achievement, the single currency adopted by most European nations, is now in danger. More than that, it’s looking increasingly like a trap. Ireland, hailed as the Celtic Tiger not so long ago, is now struggling to avoid bankruptcy. Spain, a booming economy until recent years, now has 20 percent unemployment and faces the prospect of years of painful, grinding deflation.

The tragedy of the Euromess is that the creation of the euro was supposed to be the finest moment in a grand and noble undertaking: the generations-long effort to bring peace, democracy and shared prosperity to a once and frequently war-torn continent. But the architects of the euro, caught up in their project’s sweep and romance, chose to ignore the mundane difficulties a shared currency would predictably encounter — to ignore warnings, which were issued right from the beginning, that Europe lacked the institutions needed to make a common currency workable. Instead, they engaged in magical thinking, acting as if the nobility of their mission transcended such concerns.

The result is a tragedy not only for Europe but also for the world, for which Europe is a crucial role model. The Europeans have shown us that peace and unity can be brought to a region with a history of violence, and in the process they have created perhaps the most decent societies in human history, combining democracy and human rights with a level of individual economic security that America comes nowhere close to matching. These achievements are now in the process of being tarnished, as the European dream turns into a nightmare for all too many people. How did that happen?​

Read the rest here.

What do you make of this analysis?
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
I disagree that there is or was anything noble going on in Europe. The European Union is a three card trick intending to coerce us into an unwanted and unhealthy subservience to France and Germany. I dislike and distrust the European project. I do not wish to be ruled by an official in Frankfurt.
France and Germany are not bailing Ireland out they are protecting their own banks and screwing us at the same time.
Ireland has surrendered it's hard won sovereignty and is once more a country ruled from the outside.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Sure, they can be saved. But they should figure out how to have sustainable economies by themselves.
We certainly can't teach'm anything, & we have our own debacle to work on.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Yes and we need to stop following them down the rabbit hole.

down_the_rabbit_hole_poster_by_cyril_helnwein-p228083978435450925vsu7_500.jpg
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Sure, they can be saved. But they should figure out how to have sustainable economies by themselves.

That's easy. Don't socialize losses. Problem is that there's no convincing the rich and powerful that it is not the duty of the peasantry to pick up their bill.

It's like being stuck up by a very posh highwayman.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
That's easy. Don't socialize losses. Problem is that there's no convincing the rich and powerful that it is not the duty of the peasantry to pick up their bill.
It's like being stuck up by a very posh highwayman.
Alas, I think it's a far larger problem than that.
 

Primordial Annihilator

Well-Known Member
I disagree that there is or was anything noble going on in Europe. The European Union is a three card trick intending to coerce us into an unwanted and unhealthy subservience to France and Germany. I dislike and distrust the European project. I do not wish to be ruled by an official in Frankfurt.
France and Germany are not bailing Ireland out they are protecting their own banks and screwing us at the same time.
Ireland has surrendered it's hard won sovereignty and is once more a country ruled from the outside.

Parochial seperatist...your nation had to borrow money off my nation (UK) recently...several billion in fact...we lent you the money because you are neighbours and kindred to us...how can you accept that money and then state that international cooperation and mutual assistance is a bad thing?
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Parochial seperatist...your nation had to borrow money off my nation (UK) recently...several billion in fact...we lent you the money because you are neighbours and kindred to us...how can you accept that money and then state that international cooperation and mutual assistance is a bad thing?

Yay I like that!! parochial seperatist :D

The Uk gave us a lend for the benefit of the UK. If it wasn't in their own interest they wouldn't have lent it.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Care to expand?
It seems also that every developed country is wrestling with:
How to balance encouragement of productivity with ever greater largess for all citizens.
How to be competitive with countries who are advancing & changing.
How much resource to commit to foreign wars.
Etc.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Who in turn where indebted to the US banks.

I and every other UK citizen suffers for this debt as well as you and we still lend you money.

Heck the morons here lent money to Greece. The irony of it.
Tying bank debt to national debt in this country was daft but it is what was demanded by the overlords in Frankfurt.
If the govt had any balls and weren't in the pockets of bankers they'd have told them that capitalism sometimes means taking a loss and that they should sod off.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
It seems also that every developed country is wrestling with:
How to balance encouragement of productivity with ever greater largess for all citizens.
How to be competitive with countries who are advancing & changing.
How much resource to commit to foreign wars.
Etc.

That's not the crux of our crisis in Ireland.
The crux is that the ******** that rule us have transferred the enormous losses of the banks onto the population at large.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
....capitalism sometimes means taking a loss and that they should sod off.
So few understand the importance of this. If gov't spares politically connected businesses the occasional spanking for a loss,
they become the stereotypical welfare mooch, but on a larger scale.
 

Primordial Annihilator

Well-Known Member
It seems also that every developed country is wrestling with:
How to balance encouragement of productivity with ever greater largess for all citizens.
How to be competitive with countries who are advancing & changing.
How much resource to commit to foreign wars.
Etc.

Well if China wasnt allowed to use what basically amounts to slave labour...that would help.

Wouldn't help the rich multinationals that profit from cheap overseas slave labour...but you cant please everyone.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Well if China wasnt allowed to use what basically amounts to slave labour...that would help.

Wouldn't help the rich multinationals that profit from cheap overseas slave labour...but you cant please everyone.
China takes advantage of the West's sloth, but China is the symptom...sloth is the problem.
 
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