Can God Defy Logic?

[Heyo]

What's the illogical property?

Omnipotent means it can always lift anything.
Like you said, unlimited power.

So, where's the problem?

Not lifting the rock is "limited power".
You just defined it as unlimited power.

If you want to claim it's not omnipotent, then it won't be able to lift anything and everything.
If I claim it's omnipotent then it will be able to lift anything and everything.

Omnipotence is not an illogical property.

It seems you are not only trying to redefine omnipotence but logic as well.
As I said above, one can not reason with someone who rejects reason. And that the ignore list is the right place for people who are unreasonable. I think you just qualified.

 

[dybmh]

It seems you are not only trying to redefine omnipotence but logic as well.

I'm using the definition that was given by the OP.

"Unlimited power."

As I said above, one can not reason with someone who rejects reason. And that the ignore list is the right place for people who are unreasonable. I think you just qualified.

Hah!

There is nothing illogical about what I said, nor is it unreasonable.

Unlimited power means, whatever it is, the omnipotent can lift it.
This notion that an omnipotent being MUST be lacking in power in order to be omnipotent is completely illogical.
If omnipotence means unlimited power, then it can always lift anything.

If you can't debate it, or don't want to. Fine ignore me. There are others, atheists, who put me on ignore, simply because they don't like losing. They are shopping for victims, and ignore those who they cannot defeat.

 

[1213]

An agency or force of unlimited power is not logically possible because it would not have the power to limit itself.

If someone would have unlimited power, he would also have power to control it. Having unlimited power doesn't mean one has to use it with full force all the time.

But, maybe in this case power means actually all authority, not power like electricity.

 

[Nakosis]

If someone would have unlimited power, he would also have power to control it. Having unlimited power doesn't mean one has to use it with full force all the time.

But, maybe in this case power means actually all authority, not power like electricity.

Sure, unlimited authority.
Then you'd have the authority to limit your authority at that point no longer having unlimited authority.
IOW, you can't limit your authority and have unlimited authority at the same time.
Or maybe you could but it'd be a logical contradiction and if a God exists, maybe that God is a logical contradiction.
An entity with unlimited authority certainly wouldn't have to adhere to the precepts of logic.

 

[Nakosis]

What's the illogical property?

Omnipotent means it can always lift anything.
Like you said, unlimited power.

So, where's the problem?

Not lifting the rock is "limited power".
You just defined it as unlimited power.

If you want to claim it's not omnipotent, then it won't be able to lift anything and everything.
If I claim it's omnipotent then it will be able to lift anything and everything.

Omnipotence is not an illogical property.

So then it wouldn't have the power to create something it couldn't lift. Therefore God's power is limited is what you are saying.
If you want to redefine omnipotence to mean power over everything except the ability to limit their own power in order to keep the concept of God logical, ok, then God cannot defy logic. Another limitation on the power of God. God becomes more and more limited in order to remain logical.

Sure, that is how you can define omnipotence, the power to do anything that is logically possible. If you want to limit God to that, well it's your concept of God after all.

 

[shunyadragon]

The ancient tribal fallible human views Gods definitely do defy logic and reason, and are in contradiction of what we know of science and history.

 

[WalterTrull]

My supposition is that God diefies logic.

 

[shunyadragon]

My supposition is that God diefies logic.

Supposition or assumption from your personal perspective. The existence of God does not defy logic, because logical arguments cannot justify the existence nor non-existence of God, nor the ultimate nature of God, which is unknown.,

Both apologetic arguments for God and atheist arguments fail, because they require circular reasoning in the biased assumptions.

 

[viole]

View attachment 78560​

An easy example would be an omnipotent God.
Logically an omnipotent God cannot exist.

Does this mean the existence of a God cannot be logically explained?

From Wikipedia: Omnipotence Paradox:

A common response from Christian philosophers, such as Norman Geisler or William Lane Craig, is that the paradox assumes a wrong definition of omnipotence. Omnipotence, they say, does not mean that God can do anything at all but, rather, that he can do anything that is possible according to his nature. The distinction is important. God cannot perform logical absurdities; he cannot, for instance, make 1+1=3. Likewise, God cannot make a being greater than himself because he is, by definition, the greatest possible being. God is limited in his actions to his nature. The Bible supports this, they assert, in passages such as Hebrews 6:18, which says it is "impossible for God to lie."

The above was pretty easy to find, as was the Stanford entry. I'd be curious to know whether or not @Nakosis - the OP's author - took the time to look into the question before opining on it.

According to my information, WL Craig is also an absolute creationist. That is, he believes God created the laws of logic, too. Which would contradict that. Since God could then easily suspend the laws of logic He created, to make even self contradicting state of affairs. At least, in principle.

that is actually a little drama for all Christians who do not subscribe to absolute creationism. Since assuming that God must obey the laws of logic, sort of move God to the second rank.

Ciao

- viole

 

[shunyadragon]

So then it wouldn't have the power to create something it couldn't lift. Therefore God's power is limited is what you are saying.
If you want to redefine omnipotence to mean power over everything except the ability to limit their own power in order to keep the concept of God logical, ok, then God cannot defy logic. Another limitation on the power of God. God becomes more and more limited in order to remain logical.

Sure, that is how you can define omnipotence, the power to do anything that is logically possible. If you want to limit God to that, well it's your concept of God after all.

If a Universal God exists the Creator of our physical existence reflets the attributes or nature of God. The above would be a contradiction that proposes limits on the nature of an Omnipotent All powerful Universal God. It also reflects the odd ancient tribal view of an anthropomorphic God.

 

[viole]

The concept we call God inherently precedes and transcends the limitations of logic.

We know that the concept you call God, transcends the law of logic. there is really no controversy here.

ciao

- viole

 

[shunyadragon]

We know that the concept you call God, transcends the law of logic. there is really no controversy here.

ciao

- viole

IF God exists God would transcend falibe human logic. The problem I see is logic from the human perspective, which is circular logic and reasoning based on an agenda.

 

[shunyadragon]

According to my information, WL Craig is also an absolute creationist. That is, he believes God created the laws of logic, too. Which would contradict that. Since God could then easily suspend the laws of logic He created, to make even self contradicting state of affairs. At least, in principle.

that is actually a little drama for all Christians who do not subscribe to absolute creationism. Since assuming that God must obey the laws of logic, sort of move God to the second rank.

Ciao

- viole

True.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

IF God exists God would transcend falibe human logic. The problem I see is logic from the human perspective, which is circular logic and reasoning based on an agenda.

You equate logic with sloppy thinking and then deprecate it. Logic vs Human Logic is a bit like Addition vs Human Addition ...

 

[dybmh]

So then it wouldn't have the power to create something it couldn't lift. Therefore God's power is limited is what you are saying.

No, I'm saying it can always lift anything and it can always create anything. That''s unlimited power.

If you want to redefine omnipotence to mean power over everything except the ability to limit their own power in order to keep the concept of God logical,

No, I've actually said in another thread that god can temporarily limit itself. But then the claim got adjusted to to prohibit the temporary lapse. None the less, the distinction is not about creating, it's about lifting or not-lifting.

God can create a rock that can always be lifted - unlimited power
God can create a rock that can't be lifted - limited power

God cannot create a rock that cannot be lifted = God can always create a rock that can always be lifted = omnipotence

So, in comparison,

The condition where the rock is created and can't be lifted describes limited power. So that condition is not applied to omnipotence.
The condition where the rock canot be created that cannot be lifted describes unlimited power. So that condition is applied to omnipotence.

That's it.

People want it to be "gotcha", but it isn't.

ok, then God cannot defy logic. Another limitation on the power of God. God becomes more and more limited in order to remain logical.

Sure god can defy logic. But it would require a change in reality.

Sure, that is how you can define omnipotence, the power to do anything that is logically possible. If you want to limit God to that, well it's your concept of God after all.

I'm using your definition. Can't create that can't be lifted = unlimited power. It means "can always create and can always lift".

 

[dybmh]

So then it wouldn't have the power to create something it couldn't lift. Therefore God's power is limited is what you are saying.
If you want to redefine omnipotence to mean power over everything except the ability to limit their own power in order to keep the concept of God logical, ok, then God cannot defy logic. Another limitation on the power of God. God becomes more and more limited in order to remain logical.

Sure, that is how you can define omnipotence, the power to do anything that is logically possible. If you want to limit God to that, well it's your concept of God after all.

You didn't answer the question. What's the illogical property?

 

[shunyadragon]

You equate logic with sloppy thinking and then deprecate it. Logic vs Human Logic is a bit like Addition vs Human Addition ...

I did not generalize concerning all uses of logic. I DID NOT compare logic vs. human logic. My issue is how logic is misused to justify an agenda.

Logic is indeed a part of the natural way humans think, and structured logic can be useful.


Human apologetic argument for the existence or non-existence of God is sloppy, circular, and meaningless.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

No, I'm saying it can always lift anything and it can always create anything.

Anything? Including an unsolvable problem?

That''s unlimited power.

No, that's a problem.

 

[dybmh]

Anything? Including an unsolvable problem?

Creating an unsolveable problem describes a lack of power, limited power, so... no. That describes impotence. I thought we were talking about omnipotence.

No, that's a problem.

What's the problem?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If someone would have unlimited power, he would also have power to control it. Having unlimited power doesn't mean one has to use it with full force all the time.
But, maybe in this case power means actually all authority, not power like electricity.

Absolute or relative authority.
God has absolute authority, whereas His creation (us) are in relative subjection to God's absolute authority.
Before Pres. Johnson was president he said whoever has the ultimate position has the ultimate authority.
In Scripture that places God has having the ultimate position of absolute authority.
Being wicked is a 'No No' in God's eyes thus God will Not allow wickedness to go on forever.