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Can God Defy Logic?

shunyadragon

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
URAVIP2ME said:
Absolute or relative authority.
God has absolute authority, whereas His creation (us) are in relative subjection to God's absolute authority.
Before Pres. Johnson was president he said whoever has the ultimate position has the ultimate authority.
In Scripture that places God has having the ultimate position of absolute authority.
Being wicked is a 'No No' in God's eyes thus God will Not allow wickedness to go on forever.
Click to expand...
Bold above is questionable, yes God opposes wickedness (?) n a relative sense, but God created humanity and ALL of our physical existence as is from the beginning of the first human evolved to be human hundreds of thousands of years ago, and the faults of humanity have always existed and will always exist as long as humanity exists.
 
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dybmh

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Jayhawker Soule said:
Never mind ...
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Right. There is no problem. It's just phrasing omnipotence as a pair of negations.

God can't create a rock that God can't lift = God can ALWAYS create a rock that God can ALWAYS lift. = Unlimited power = omnipotence​

Then there's the impotence which is phrased as opposing positive / negative assertions, "can't create + can lift" and "can create + can't lift".

God can't create a rock that God can lift = limited power = impotence​
God can create a rock that God can't lift = limited power = impotence​
​
That's it. 4 cases. There is no contradiction with omnipotence.

The conditions that describe a limited power are not omnipotent.
The conditions that describe an umlimited power are omnipotent.

Omnipotence:
God can't create a rock that God can't lift
God can always create a rock that God can always lift

Not Omnipotent:
God can't create a rock that God can lift
God can create a rock that God can't lift

Symmetry, balance, common sense... there is no problem.
 
shunyadragon

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
dybmh said:
Right. There is no problem. It's just phrasing omnipotence as a pair of negations.

God can't create a rock that God can't lift = God can ALWAYS create a rock that God can ALWAYS lift. = Unlimited power = omnipotence​

Then there's the impotence which is phrased as opposing positive / negative assertions, "can't create + can lift" and "can create + can't lift".

God can't create a rock that God can lift = limited power = impotence​
God can create a rock that God can't lift = limited power = impotence​
​
That's it. 4 cases. There is no contradiction with omnipotence.

The conditions that describe a limited power are not omnipotent.
The conditions that describe an umlimited power are omnipotent.

Omnipotence:
God can't create a rock that God can't lift
God can always create a rock that God can always lift

Not Omnipotent:
God can't create a rock that God can lift
God can create a rock that God can't lift

Symmetry, balance, common sense... there is no problem.
Click to expand...
Toon anthropomorphic to be real. God is not a man trying to lift rocks bigger than the universe.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
shunyadragon said:
Bold above is questionable, yes God opposes wickedness (?) n a relative sense, but God created humanity and ALL of our physical existence as is from the beginning of the first human evolved to be human hundreds of thousands of years ago, and the faults of humanity have always existed and will always exist as long as humanity exists.
Click to expand...
God could have used some form of evolution where lower life is concerned but Not where human Adam is concerned.
God formed or fashioned Adam from the already existing dust of the ground - Genesis 2:7
God opposes wickedness in all senses not just in a relative sense.
Adam started out with human perfection with leanings towards righteousness.
Only a deliberate act would deviate from righteousness - James 1:13-15
So, from the beginning of Adam's downfall is why the faults of humanity exist.
Same with Satan, he started out with angelic perfection but decided he wanted humans to worship him.
So, from the beginning of Satan's downfall is how sin got introduced into our world.
Jesus came to lift up mankind to the human perfection that Adam lost for us.
Jesus gives us hope. Hope for mankind to rediscover God's purpose for Earth that humble meek people will inherit the Earth. - Psalm 37
That righteous humanity will always exist as Jesus promised everlasting life on Earth. A beautiful paradisical Earth as Eden originally was.
 
viole

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
dybmh said:
God can ALWAYS create a rock that God can ALWAYS lift
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everybody able to create rocks could do that. All she has to do is check how much she can lift, say 20 kilos. And make sure to create only rocks lighter than that.

does not look much like omnipotence to me. It is pretty lame, actually.

ciao

- viole
 
Jimmy

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
Defy logic? I think infinity defies logic so yeah. If you’re one of those who doesn’t know what I’m talking about or wants to question what kind of infinity ha ha I’m talking about infinite space.
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
dybmh said:
No, I'm saying it can always lift anything and it can always create anything. That''s unlimited power.



No, I've actually said in another thread that god can temporarily limit itself. But then the claim got adjusted to to prohibit the temporary lapse. None the less, the distinction is not about creating, it's about lifting or not-lifting.

God can create a rock that can always be lifted - unlimited power
God can create a rock that can't be lifted - limited power

God cannot create a rock that cannot be lifted = God can always create a rock that can always be lifted = omnipotence

So, in comparison,

The condition where the rock is created and can't be lifted describes limited power. So that condition is not applied to omnipotence.
The condition where the rock canot be created that cannot be lifted describes unlimited power. So that condition is applied to omnipotence.

That's it.

People want it to be "gotcha", but it isn't.



Sure god can defy logic. But it would require a change in reality.



I'm using your definition. Can't create that can't be lifted = unlimited power. It means "can always create and can always lift".
Click to expand...

Ok, can God sin?
 
dybmh

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
viole said:
everybody able to create rocks could do that. All she has to do is check how much she can lift, say 20 kilos. And make sure to create only rocks lighter than that.

does not look much like omnipotence to me. It is pretty lame, actually.

ciao

- viole
Click to expand...

Not true. She cannot actually create a rock. She's forming a rock from other rock.
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Moon said:
Defy logic? I think infinity defies logic so yeah. If you’re one of those who doesn’t know what I’m talking about or wants to question what kind of infinity ha ha I’m talking about infinite space.
Click to expand...

Sure, I have no problem believing your concept of God defies logic.
 
dybmh

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Nakosis said:
Ok, can God sin?
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No, a sin requires a law, a law is a restriction, a restriction is a limitation.

A god that can sin is limited in power by the law applied to it.
A god that cannot sin is unlmited in power, there are no laws applied to it.

Omnipotent = god cannot sin

Impotent = god can sin
 
dybmh

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
shunyadragon said:
Toon anthropomorphic to be real. God is not a man trying to lift rocks bigger than the universe.
Click to expand...

But saying that God cannot be like a man, imo, is a problem too.

Omnipotence should permit being like a man, but also not limited to the things a man can do.
 
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